Ehhh I like the idea of detention field being a toggle but that would be extremely overpowered in many situations.
Currently happy with Force bolt.
Honestly never in my life had the desire to take repulsion bomb so I can't even give an opinion on that.
I don't agree with the force bubble change at all. I'd rather see it have the range of the bubble halfed and the current effect stats doubled.
Force Bolt - yeah, could use more damage. Can really feel it on my Earth/FF.
Detention field can't become a toggle. How are you going to maintain a toggle on something untouchable? It's easy enough to notice, just leave it be.
Repulsion bomb, leave as it is. It's perfectly usable and useful - ranged AOE damage and knockdown, chance to stun? Yes, thanks.
No to shrinking Force Bubble's radius that much, thanks. Making it match Dispersion at 25 feet, I could see, perhaps, but that's still a bit small for the mobs that can push through a ways.
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The powers system is entirely capable of having powers affect otherwise untouchable targets. For example, Hamidon can easily kill Phantom Army or Hibernating players with reckless abandon.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Detention field can't become a toggle. How are you going to maintain a toggle on something untouchable? It's easy enough to notice, just leave it be.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Repulsion bomb, leave as it is. It's perfectly usable and useful - ranged AOE damage and knockdown, chance to stun? Yes, thanks.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No to shrinking Force Bubble's radius that much, thanks. Making it match Dispersion at 25 feet, I could see, perhaps, but that's still a bit small for the mobs that can push through a ways.
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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
I'm on board with a new animation for Repulsion Bomb, but not re-using Hand Clap's. Seems like it would just look too janky like that.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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Think about that for a second. Many melee powers have a range of 7 feet. If the range of force bubble is a mere 15 feet, it will be mostly useless aside from your proposed 25% damage debuff which is quite massive in itself...|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Having the radius smaller than Dispersion Bubble's means teammates can stay in Dispersion Bubble while still fighting affected enemies without trouble.
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Not to mention it would completely change the very purpose of force bubble. Instead of keeping people out of melee you'd be running around trying to debuff everyone's damage.
I still can't agree on this at all. As I mentioned before half the range it has now with double the current effects would be ideal for making it a more useful power in my opinion. They would then be inside dispersion bubble and force bubble effectively.
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I suggested the range be 20 feet, not 15.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Think about that for a second. Many melee powers have a range of 7 feet. If the range of force bubble is a mere 15 feet, it will be mostly useless aside from your proposed 25% damage debuff which is quite massive in itself...
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Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Not to mention it would completely change the very purpose of force bubble. Instead of keeping people out of melee you'd be running around trying to debuff everyone's damage.
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Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
I still can't agree on this at all. As I mentioned before half the range it has now with double the current effects would be ideal for making it a more useful power in my opinion. They would then be inside dispersion bubble and force bubble effectively.
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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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I'm pretty sure only player melee powers have 7 foot range. Enemies stick to the old 5 foot range.
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Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Think about that for a second. Many melee powers have a range of 7 feet. If the range of force bubble is a mere 15 feet, it will be mostly useless aside from your proposed 25% damage debuff which is quite massive in itself...
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Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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Huh? I wouldn't really call Repulsion Field area denial.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
That's the point. FF already has a perfectly good area denial power in Repulsion Field. It doesn't need 2.
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Repulsion field = Knockback, which plenty of mobs are resistant to. Force bubble = Repel, different mechanic. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
That's the point. FF already has a perfectly good area denial power in Repulsion Field. It doesn't need 2.
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And 20 feet - I've had mobs push 1/3 to halfway into my Force Bubble. 20 feet? I might as well not even be using it.
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I've never seen any evidence in my 5 years of playing that either is more desirable than the suggested debuff.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Repulsion field = Knockback, which plenty of mobs are resistant to. Force bubble = Repel, different mechanic.
And 20 feet - I've had mobs push 1/3 to halfway into my Force Bubble. 20 feet? I might as well not even be using it. |
Edit: Let me explain that I adore knockback, and even I HATE Force Bubble as-is. It's all of the scattering people loathe about knockback, over a huge area, with none of the not fighting back that people love about it. And it's not even 100% effective, like Memphis says! When someone toggles on this power, 9 times out of 10 I want to kill them myself.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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And I find it more desirable during my five plus years of playing. There. You have just as valid counter-"evidence." |
Originally Posted by Vanden
I've never seen any evidence in my 5 years of playing that either is more desirable than the suggested debuff.
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Force Bubble is more useful to me *now* with its current radius. Dropping that radius reduces its usefulness.
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| Edit: Let me explain that I adore knockback, and even I HATE Force Bubble as-is. It's all of the scattering people loathe about knockback, with none of the not fighting back that people love about it. And it's not even 100% effective, like Memphis says! When someone toggles on this power, 9 times out of 10 I want to kill them myself. |
It also, frankly, doesn't sound like *you* play FF.
Dropping the radius reduces its current usefulness for its only use now, when as I said the point of my suggested change is to change the current use to a better one.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Or "perfectly good." Or good, come to think of it. Any power which can sink my endurance faster that I can react to it cannot be "good" in any definition of the word. If anything in Forcefieds needs "fixing" it's Repulsion Field, and I'd really start with that. I don't know what the power was intended to do, but in its current incarnation, it does one thing primarily - draining my endurance for very little tangible effect. On a Mastermind that doesn't actually have to do anything in some cases, it's manageable, but on anything else, it's just insulting.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Huh? I wouldn't really call Repulsion Field area denial.
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If we're talking about area denial, Force Bubble is a far superior choice, with a higher tick rate, a constant repel effect and a much larger are of effect. Oh, and no 1.25 endurance cost per target twice per second. Corner five people with the thing and you're down 2*5*1.25 + 2*1.07 = 14.64 points. I cannot tolerate a toggle which costs me over 10 points of endurance per second.
If I had my way, I'd turn Repulsion Field into what Repulsion Bomb used to be - fast-animation click AoE knockback on almost no recharge and very little cost. That way, you could time your own pulses for when you needed them to conserve energy, because that's what people do now anyway.
As far as Force Bolt goes, I'd prefer to see it get the Power Push treatment, i.e. little damage, lots of knockback and a very short recharge. It works for Power Push, it ought to work for Force Bolt.
I have no problem with Repulsion Bomb as such, but I wouldn't mind seeing its animation (and that of Neutron Bomb while we're at it) sped up at least by half. It really is too slow, but its actual effect isn't half bad, and I prefer to see it remain ranged.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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"Better" is an opinion, one I do not share.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Dropping the radius reduces its current usefulness for its only use now, when as I said the point of my suggested change is to change the intended use to a better one.
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i agree that force bolt needs to have a dmg boost
i agree that the force bomb could use a faster animation, however i do like its current animation somewhat
force bubble whoever does not need any changes, i would rather see repulsion field changed than force bubble changed
while i dont agree with all your changes, i do agree that FF does need some more oomph to it because right now, its a horridly boring set to play especially on a mm, and ive actually contemplated deleting my mm with FF because its so horribly boring to play that i can barely stand it, and if cold dom was made for mm, then i would scrap the FF toon in a heart beat
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Oh I've played FF. You know my forum handle? The one that no one who knows me in game ever sees me play a character named? That's the name of my level 50 FF defender who I haven't played more than 10 minutes at a time in 4 years because FF is so boring.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
It also, frankly, doesn't sound like *you* play FF.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If I had my way, I'd turn Repulsion Field into what Repulsion Bomb used to be - fast-animation click AoE knockback on almost no recharge and very little cost. That way, you could time your own pulses for when you needed them to conserve energy, because that's what people do now anyway.
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| As far as Force Bolt goes, I'd prefer to see it get the Power Push treatment, i.e. little damage, lots of knockback and a very short recharge. It works for Power Push, it ought to work for Force Bolt. |
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| I have no problem with Repulsion Bomb as such, but I wouldn't mind seeing its animation (and that of Neutron Bomb while we're at it) sped up at least by half. It really is too slow, but its actual effect isn't half bad, and I prefer to see it remain ranged. |
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
This set cannot be fixed to without an egregious violation of the Cottage Rule. Castle's tried once, I doubt he will again.
I just decided to roll a Cold Domination and shelve my FF. I'm happy with my choice.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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And these changes wouldn't do jack for that, so you'd change a set so you'd find it... still boring but slightly different.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Oh I've played FF. You know my forum handle? The one that no one who knows me in game ever sees me play a character named? That's the name of my level 50 FF defender who I haven't played more than 10 minutes at a time in 4 years because FF is so boring.
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Congrats. And what are you doing with your secondary? Maybe FF just isn't for you. There's nothing wrong with that. Maybe it's the combination of FF and your primary. Maybe it's how you're playing. Or just your expectations.
I like my Earth/FF controller. I've got a few FF defenders lurking about. And I can't *stand* my Bots/FF. It's the combination specifically that bores me to tears. At the rate he's leveling - and he was one of my first MMs, just after COV release - he'll be 50 in 2018 or so. He's right down with my Illusion/ controllers as "least favourite to play."
For Force Bolt I'd have to disagree with more damage. Yes, it's nice with damage, but that's not what I use Force Bolt for. Nor do I want an stun in it.
All I want in a Force Bolt buff, is a doubling or even tripling of the Knockback magnitude. Why? Because Force Bolt as is gets irritatingly close to the magic Mag 50 KB when slotted for it. I want to see it break that barrier with ease and gun for the next magic KB magnitude: 100.
In case you're wondering about Mag 50 and Mag 100 in Knockback, it's quite simple.
AV with PToD down: Mag 50 KB Resist.
AV with PToD up: Mag 100 KB Resist.
(Some AVs have higher resists, usually when they're based on melee types.)
I want Force Bolt to be the only power in the entire game that can knock down anything lesser than a GM. It's one of the best "Get OFF me!" powers in the game. Let's make it the ultimate.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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Fast-recharging, not fast-animating. At one point, Castle described it as a power Forcefielders would want to spam for this precise reason. However, my experience with Repulsion Bomb is from only a year ago.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Repulsion Bomb was NEVER fast.
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Incidentally, what does this have to do with anything? What I suggested had to do with Repulsion Field, not Repulsion Bomb. If my unimportant off-hand comment was wrong, ignore it.
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| That doesn't describe Power Push at all. In fact, what you've described is Force Bolt as-is. So congrats, you got what you wanted! |
In that case, I withdraw my suggestion and instead choose to be perfectly happy with it.
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| Nowhere did I suggest making Repulsion Bomb not ranged. What I suggested was removing the projectile and making the power instant-hit like Levitate or Fossilize. |
You can speed the power's cast without speeding up its projectile. "Agonizing" is an unconvincing argument, considering you're not rooted while the projectile hits, and it calculates to-hit on execution.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Rather than carry on fruitless arguments with people who I'm not going to be able to convince, I'm just gonna say this: if Force Field gets buffed, even if my suggestions aren't what happens (incredibly unlikely, I know 
) there's going to be changes to some of its powers that will change their use and functionality. There's only so much you can do with knockback and repel, and Force Field as-is is proof of that.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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See cottage rule.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Rather than carry on fruitless arguments with people who I'm not going to be able to convince, I'm just gonna say this: if Force Field gets buffed, even if my suggestions aren't what happens (incredibly unlikely, I know
) there's going to be changes to some of its powers that will change their use and functionality. |
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| There's only so much you can do with knockback and repel, and Force Field as-is is proof of that. |
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Force Field is a good set, but it's being almost entirely carried by 3 powers. Its other powers need some buffs to be more desirable.
Force Bolt: Becomes a real ranged attack. Damage increased from scale 0.2 to scale 1, add 20% chance for Mag 3 stun. Detention Field: Becomes a toggle. 1.04% end/s, can only be active for 30 seconds. Recharge time reduced from 60s to 30s. Repulsion Bomb: Animation changed to Hand Clap animation. Animation time reduced from 3.07s to 1.23s. Projectile effect removed; now affects targets instantly after activation time. Force Bubble: Radius reduced from 50ft to 20ft. Non-stackable 10s 25% damage debuff to target effect added. |
Force Bolt: Agree. I'd give it no more than Tier 1 Blast damage at most, however.
Detention Field: Undecided.
Repulsion Bomb: I like the animation. Just speed it up and maybe throw the projectile at a much shallower arc to it arrives sooner.
Force Bubble: No. Maybe reduce the radius a little bit, but by far not that much. Also, how do you explain the damage debuff? FF is right now primarily buff + soft control. Personally, I'd rather it stay that way rather than become a debuff set too.
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Originally Posted by McNum
For Force Bolt I'd have to disagree with more damage. Yes, it's nice with damage, but that's not what I use Force Bolt for. Nor do I want an stun in it.
All I want in a Force Bolt buff, is a doubling or even tripling of the Knockback magnitude. Why? Because Force Bolt as is gets irritatingly close to the magic Mag 50 KB when slotted for it. I want to see it break that barrier with ease and gun for the next magic KB magnitude: 100. In case you're wondering about Mag 50 and Mag 100 in Knockback, it's quite simple. AV with PToD down: Mag 50 KB Resist. AV with PToD up: Mag 100 KB Resist. (Some AVs have higher resists, usually when they're based on melee types.) I want Force Bolt to be the only power in the entire game that can knock down anything lesser than a GM. It's one of the best "Get OFF me!" powers in the game. Let's make it the ultimate. |
Problem with that would be the awesome mitigation powers of perma-kbing an AV and the fact that Force Bolting stuff like minions would send them clear across the horizon. Knockback distance increases with magnitude.
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How would this be a buff and not a nerf? As it stands, I can apply Detention Field, it lasts for 30 seconds, and recharges in roughly the same amount of time. Therefore I can reapply it as soon as it drops against a hard target like an AV, which is really the only target worth using it against.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Its other powers need some buffs to be more desirable.
Detention Field: Becomes a toggle. 1.04% end/s, can only be active for 30 seconds. Recharge time reduced from 60s to 30s. |
Your change would result in a toggle that would use about 3 times more endurance, would only last 30 seconds, then result in a 15-30 period of downtime where it couldn't be used again.
No thanks...
Force Field is a good set, but it's being almost entirely carried by 3 powers. Its other powers need some buffs to be more desirable.
Force Bolt: Becomes a real ranged attack. Damage increased from scale 0.2 to scale 1, add 20% chance for Mag 3 stun.
Detention Field: Becomes a toggle. 1.04% end/s, can only be active for 30 seconds. Recharge time reduced from 60s to 30s.
Repulsion Bomb: Animation changed to Hand Clap animation. Animation time reduced from 3.07s to 1.23s. Projectile effect removed; now affects targets instantly after activation time.
Force Bubble: Radius reduced from 50ft to 20ft. Non-stackable 10s 25% damage debuff to target effect added.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.