Buff Force Field


Arctic_Princess

 

Posted

the only reason i would want it to have a mag 100 kb is so i COULD see a lvl 1 baddy get flung like a train just hit him lol


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix View Post
Problem with that would be the awesome mitigation powers of perma-kbing an AV and the fact that Force Bolting stuff like minions would send them clear across the horizon. Knockback distance increases with magnitude.
Yes, I know. That's not a problem, that's working as intended. If something gets Force Bolted, it should keep going until it meets something heavy. Like a wall or a Tanker. Forcefields does need something for AVs as that's the example put forward in every FF vs. anything thread. If Forcefields could keep an AV on the ground for half the fight, it most certainly will have something to do.

Plus, I really, really want to see a Mag 100 KB applied to a level 1 Hellion by a level 50 Defender. Think he'd clear the Atlas Globe? The long way?


Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
How would this be a buff and not a nerf? As it stands, I can apply Detention Field, it lasts for 30 seconds, and recharges in roughly the same amount of time. Therefore I can reapply it as soon as it drops against a hard target like an AV, which is really the only target worth using it against.

Your change would result in a toggle that would use about 3 times more endurance, would only last 30 seconds, then result in a 15-30 period of downtime where it couldn't be used again.

No thanks...
You're right, mathematically it would be a nerf. But the result would be a power with much, much more user-friendliness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McNum View Post
Yes, I know. That's not a problem, that's working as intended. If something gets Force Bolted, it should keep going until it meets something heavy. Like a wall or a Tanker. Forcefields does need something for AVs as that's the example put forward in every FF vs. anything thread. If Forcefields could keep an AV on the ground for half the fight, it most certainly will have something to do.
I think you've found the reason Force Bolt doesn't quite reach that point.


Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

 

Posted

While I could certainly agree Force Bolt would be nice if it did some damage, that's the one thing I don't want it to do. Currently, Force Bolt is a 100% chance of very nice knockback. It is useful to me because when I WANT to use it, it is immediately available, and only available, as a tool for sending a foe flying. If I were using it as an attack, those foes would be sent flying a lot more often, which would cause problems for the team.

As it is, Power Push got a large damage boost for Dominators, and AFAIK, it still has the same chance of knockback. I have heard nothing about it, but I suspect it is a problem. As Energy Assault needed the damage, it's acceptable, but the other versions of Power Push remain the same. And that includes Force Bolt. (The only reason Force Bolt and Power Push are two different powers is because FF/Energy Defenders can get both. Their difference is negligible)

I've suggested making Detention Shield into a toggle, but according to the devs, that is impossible. A toggle must tick at regular intervals. The first tick would make the foe Untouchable, which means the second tick would immediately fail because it was unable to hit the target.

Personally, I would make it a huge Def bonus to the foe, while making the tick effect autohit, but that would allow other autohit powers to "get through" as well.

Repulsion Bomb is fine. Yes, it is a long animation, but it is hardly "the longest in the game". Propel is longer, and so is Total Focus. Although honestly I wouldn't object to it having the same animation as Neutron Bomb.

It is an attack that does MORE damage than Neutron Bomb, though, has a 100% chance of knockDOWN, and a fairly good chance of Stun. Which makes it a good attack to spam on your Tanker. His foes are flopping at his feet and stunned, but not knocked away from him, so he's not losing any defenses.

Finally, the problem with giving Force Bubble a debuff effect is that its primary effect forces all foes out of its radius, forcing them out of the debuff. And I personally wouldn't want it to have a defensive debuff effect anyway. It's my personal belief that what FF needs are either -Res debuffs, or +Dam buffs, on either the caster or the whole team. The Cottage Rule means new powers can't be made to grant those effects, but maybe they could be secondary effects of existing powers.

In short, Force Bolt and Repulsion Bomb are fine. The ones that need work are Repulsion Field, Detention Shield, and Force Bubble. Some effects I'd like to see out of it are buffs, not debuffs, better Endurance management, and maybe a -regen on Detention Shield, so a foe doesn't come out of it better than when he went in. This is supposed to be a set about energy and force. I think those effects best fit the concept.

I've also thought that maybe it would be nice if Force Field had more CONTROL over knockback. Like perhaps the ability to reduce it to knockdown, when desired, or even to knock foes INTO a target. Implosion. I'm guessing that's as difficult to produce with the current game engine as a Untouchable toggle, though...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
I've suggested making Detention Shield into a toggle, but according to the devs, that is impossible. A toggle must tick at regular intervals. The first tick would make the foe Untouchable, which means the second tick would immediately fail because it was unable to hit the target.
That was years ago, and is no longer true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
Finally, the problem with giving Force Bubble a debuff effect is that its primary effect forces all foes out of its radius, forcing them out of the debuff.
That is why the debuff would stick for 10 seconds, giving the enemy enough time to get back into the AoE while retaining the debuff.


Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanden View Post
That was years ago, and is no longer true.
And how do you know this?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanden View Post
I think you've found the reason Force Bolt doesn't quite reach that point.
Actually... I played around with Mids for a few minutes and looks like I was wrong. If you pretty much ignore ED and keep piling on KB mods into Force Bolt, you can push it to Mag 55 (1 lvl 50 Acc IO and 5 lvl 50 KB IOs). That should just about be enough to cause knockback on some AVs.

Hmm, this is almost worth burning a respec to try out for real. It'd be too funny if it worked.


Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
And how do you know this?
If you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd see that I already pointed out that there are mobs in the game, like Hamidon, that can damage untouchable characters.


Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanden View Post
If you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd see that I already pointed out that there are mobs in the game, like Hamidon, that can damage untouchable characters.
That does not mean it is possible for players to do this.

Unless you have a direct quote from a dev that says its possible, I'd say you are making a big assumption.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
That does not mean it is possible for players to do this.

Unless you have a direct quote from a dev that says its possible, I'd say you are making a big assumption.
It is possible for players to do this right now.

Try fighting an Illusionist. She'll phase shift. Phase shift yourself and you can hit her again. Phased can fight phased right now.


Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanden View Post

That is why the debuff would stick for 10 seconds, giving the enemy enough time to get back into the AoE while retaining the debuff.
Here's a suggestion: shove that debuff in Repulsion Field.

Now you have a reason to use it and don't mess with something people like.

PS: If Force Bolt did reasonably good damage, people would use it more. Then you ask "Can you please stop knocking back every foe I target?" and get the answer "I'm blasting! GTFO!!"


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by McNum View Post
It is possible for players to do this right now.

Try fighting an Illusionist. She'll phase shift. Phase shift yourself and you can hit her again. Phased can fight phased right now.
No, you can't - other than PVP, IIRC (not sure if that got past beta.) Tested it when it was mentioned in a prior beta, because this was *exactly* what I was expecting to do. Doesn't work. In fact, I just went in and tried it - literally just logged out after trying it. She phased, I phased, I attacked - "Unaffected."


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by McNum View Post
It is possible for players to do this right now.

Try fighting an Illusionist. She'll phase shift. Phase shift yourself and you can hit her again. Phased can fight phased right now.
Well, I believe that was pointed out at the time, but that's not the same thing. If you have to Phase to keep up a Detention Shield on a foe, that's kind of tedious.

That may also explain how Hamidon is able to hit phased foes, it simply drops a phased pet to make the attack. That's not to say you would be able to do the same, if you dropped a pet to Detention your foe, you wouldn't be able to toggle it off and on.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
No, you can't - other than PVP, IIRC (not sure if that got past beta.) Tested it when it came out, because this was *exactly* what I was expecting to do. Doesn't work. In fact, I just went in and tried it - literally just logged out after trying it. She phased, I phased, I attacked - "Unaffected."
Ah. My mistake, then. Too bad, I suppose there's some other reason that we're not allowed to hit untouchable NPCs. Most likely the civilians in Mayhem Missions. Can't allow us to defeat them and keep the T rating.


Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Here's a suggestion: shove that debuff in Repulsion Field.
That would be even harder to apply to a foe, since you'd essentially have to be in melee with him. However, there's no reason Repulsion Field couldn't apply a buff to either the player or the team. In fact, I suppose you could extend the radius of the debuff BEYOND the Repulsion field. Say, as well as repelling any foes that come nearby, it repels attacks away from you and your nearby teammates as well.

Alternately, it drives your attacks even harder into the foes...

The problem I see with buffing Repulsion Field is that it is in a lot of APPs, and has a version in Kinetic and Energy Aura as well. (Repel and Repulse, respectively) This is not to say that Repulsion Field, Repel and Repulse have to be EXACTLY the same. They do have different names, after all.


 

Posted

Okay, there's a lot of misinformation in the past few posts.

First, there's a difference between Phased and Untouchable. Phased targets can only hit other Phased targets. Phase Shift grants this status. Untouchable targets are immune to attacks unless the power used can specifically go through that and yes, that is a feature of Hamidon's attacks. It has nothing to do with the Phased status. You can't attack an Illusionist while it's intangible because their power gives them the untouchable, not phased, status.

Second, civilians in mayhems are NOT untouchable. They just have 100% resistance to all damage and ridiculously high mez protection.


Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

 

Posted

The Devs will never give us a power that pierces Untouchable, simply because it'd no doubt break the mechanics of several battles, such as Lord Winter going Untouchable until you kill his pet GM ambush. You'd be able to, for example, Detention "phased" Illusionists, which isn't supposed to be possible.


 

Posted

Oh no, I'll be able to make invincible enemies the devs want to be invincible.


Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

 

Posted

And also prevent said "purposely invincible but still able to fight back" enemies from fighting back.


 

Posted

Right, that would be totally overpowered. It's not like those enemies are either not always intangible or use an "ignore incoming damage" mechanic that doesn't prevent normal mezzes from working either, or are simply not intended to be unstoppable marauders that instakill your party no matter what.


Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanden View Post
Force Bolt: Becomes a real ranged attack. Damage increased from scale 0.2 to scale 1, add 20% chance for Mag 3 stun.
Ok I can agree with this, it would probably cost a tiny bit more end and take a little longer to recharge but no complaints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanden View Post
Detention Field: Becomes a toggle. 1.04% end/s, can only be active for 30 seconds. Recharge time reduced from 60s to 30s.
Would completely remove any and all use I have for the power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanden View Post
Repulsion Bomb: Animation changed to Hand Clap animation. Animation time reduced from 3.07s to 1.23s. Projectile effect removed; now affects targets instantly after activation time.
I can certainly see a change to the power animation, perhaps a retool of explosive blast would be better though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanden View Post
Force Bubble: Radius reduced from 50ft to 20ft. Non-stackable 10s 25% damage debuff to target effect added.
Just plain no on the radius reduction, enemies are fairly good at shoving 1/3rd to half of the way in as it stands.

The main thing I see that can be added to Force Fields is Defense Debuff Resistance in Dispersion Bubble to set it apart from Cold. If Force Fields is supposed to be the king of team defense buffing why do Shield users give their teams debuff resistance and not Force Field users?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krogoth View Post
Just plain no on the radius reduction, enemies are fairly good at shoving 1/3rd to half of the way in as it stands.
I agree.

On my Bots/FF MM I regularly use Force Bubble as an excellent area denial power. Reducing the size of Force Bubble would only ruin an already weak set.

If you don't like the size of Force Bubble then don't take it, take Repulsion Field instead.


 

Posted

I like your ideas, Vanden.

If the devs wanted to make Detention Field into a toggle, they could do it. Castle may not be able to do it with a spreadsheet of game data, but with some programming help it is definitely possible.
Just like swappable ammo, Dual Blade combos, insta-recharge-Power-Siphon-criticals and other goodies we now hold in our hands. I'm sure all required some extensions to the game code rather than just data changes.

I think it would be a very good idea to do this, and make the power more useful. Alternatives would be:
1) Apply a Mag 4 stun for a few seconds when the phase wears off
2) Make powers targetting an intangible foe queue up like the target was out of range. This way you don't waste attacks on the intangible enemy, but can be prepared to spike them when the bubble wears off.


Force Bolt Mag 1 damage. Yep! I agree with that one.

Repulsion Bomb could use a quicker animation, yes. Provide the Hand Clap one and an alternate one as well, maybe even a faster version of the current beachball toss.

Repulsion Field, get rid of the unmodifiable endurance drain. Knocking an enemy off you isn't that fantastic. Do the same for Repel.

Force Bubble, I can't say. I have very little experience with it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by McNum View Post
It is possible for players to do this right now.

Try fighting an Illusionist. She'll phase shift. Phase shift yourself and you can hit her again. Phased can fight phased right now.
Just to clarify a bit more: as Mephis_Bill pointed out, Carnies actually enter the Untouchable state periodically, essentially becoming like Phantom Army (Untouchable without Affecting Only Self as in Detention Field). True Phase v Phase combat is possible in PVE though only via Dimension Shift/Black Hole and Phase Shift/Ethereal Shift. In my experience, no mobs have protection from the Phase status though I haven't been able to test against the Hamidon. I have phased GM's with a single use of Dimension Shift, though the visuals do not appear correctly.

It's possible to Phase a carnie, pursue her with Phase Shift, and have her become Untouchable while Phased.

I have one question reguarding the Hami v Phantom Army that I have never found the answer to: is the ability to bypass Untouchable baked into the power or into the entity that is using the power? I've never seen a dev post indicating which.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Fast-recharging, not fast-animating. At one point, Castle described it as a power Forcefielders would want to spam for this precise reason. However, my experience with Repulsion Bomb is from only a year ago.
Just for the sake of history: the quote was from Statesman, not Castle. Unfortunately, States' post comparing Sonic and FF is long gone -- it provided some of the only insight into the design intentions behind both sets. One thing States never answered is just how a bubbler would spam a power that KBed mobs away from the bubbler's target.

Dumpster diving?

Anyway ...

To throw something out: I've exchanged PMs with the devs about FF in the past, and one of the things mentioned is that Force Bubble's AoE is 50' simply because that's about the right size needed to keep most (possibly all non-resistant) mobs from reaching the bubbler. Making it smaller would make it much less effective at what it's supposed to be doing. But, lest we forget, ever since defenders got Traps, FF can no longer lay sole claim to having the worst (de)buff T9.

FF's base problem is that this game has /lots/ of ways to keep mobs out of melee range of squishies (possibly partial list): immobs; slows; tankers; KB; repel. Of the entries in the list, only KB and repel have any particular downsides (that is, fugging up AoEs) and preclude them from being the always on, always useful advantage that States tried to pitch in his FF v. Sonic post.

States thought the game was a tactical, single target game (remember when Taunt was ST? When Geko was surprised that tankers didn't like having AoE KBs?). The players thought, and still thank, that the game is an AoE-fulled zerg-fest ... mostly because it's more efficient to mow down spawns meant for 3 players and up with AoEs.

I'm rambling now ...

But, to sum up: changing FF means changing its bible entry (damage mitigation through KB, repel, buffs -- even det. field was a late addition), and doing THAT would be even harder for the devs to retcon than breaking the cottage rule.