we need a pvp dev

Originally Posted by Black_Barrier Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...

I disagree. The resources have been put in for PvP - either in zones, arena, base raids, etc. For RP, apart from creative use of emotes or BAB doing walk in his spare time if I understand correctly, it doesn't add to the contect of the game - like PvP mayhems could or the changes from I13 PvP players want. I loved base raids and would love to see them come back. So PvP has a lot of potential IMO whereas adding more RP stuff doesn't.

PvP Zones, PvP IOs, Arena, PvP Revamps, Base Raids. All of these things have been added to the game in the interest of sparking more PVP interest. They've failed fairly miserably, with very little if any change in the net number of PvPers in the game, save for the i13 changes which turned the zones into ghost towns.

They've already got a strong Roleplaying playerbase they could create stuff for, instead.

More emotes, interactive emotes (hugs, and such) new costume pieces, a Secret identity system, personal apartment/bases, Base design revamp, more base items, more base textures, personal nemesis systems, new travel powers and power pool customization, more power customization in general...

More chest emblems and cape styles, costume pieces galore! new RP areas and hangouts. How about a few buildings scattered around the map with ACTUAL insides? I'd love to head down to a 1950's style diner in Steel canyon and hang out with friends while waitresses in white blouses and red poodle skirts take the orders of other patrons. Or head down into a laboratory environment near Orion labs for RP and fun. How about leaving the tops of "Green Fluid Filled Tanks" open so players can jump in for cloning RP?

They've tried and Failed to get a strong PvP presence, and have thrown money at the problem for long enough. I'd rather they moved on to another subset of the players and handed out some new toys.

There's a point where you have to cut your losses and move on to something else, rather than throwing good money after bad.

-Rachel-

no u

/not signed

Really? I would love to see your numbers on this. Almost like saying they had a strong PvP playerbase pre-I13. I wonder which was more?

And emotes do what again? Nothing to the content of the game. Don't recall seeing you get a drop or a badge doing emotes.
Base stuff - how is that RP? Enlighten me. The players I see with bases use the bins and TPers. Not a lot of RP there.
PC for RP? I am sure players that RP like using it. I use it to match colors, not to RP. My fire/rad corr has green fire because /rad is green. My emp def has red colors to match PD colors, not to RP.

Not sure where you are going with that. I don't RP so pretty meaningless.

They haven't removed any of the PvP stuff yet. Just reading what the other posters has said and with my PvP experience, there is tons of potential here with their thoughts/opinions/experience in PvP. A focused dev could help bring the players and devs back to the same page. An RP dev is a complete waste of time, money, and resources IMO.

EDIT:

Rachel, on the other hand, forget it. From the last thread and how you posted, it isn't worth it. RP means nothing to me and PvP means nothing to you.

There are no numbers. But I've known far more RPers (even in passing) than I've met PvPers in zones or around arenas, even pre i13 PvP. Anectdotal evidence (I.E. not evidence at all) but that's all either of us has. However, with the collapse of the PvP Playerbase I think it's a safe bet that there are more casual, medium, heavy, and so forth RPers than casual or heavy PvPers. Agree to disagree?

Why does there have to be content built around the RP? IOs are not content. Badges are not content. Though if they built an RP event system it'd just be gamed by players who don't care about RP, while adding things that many players use benefits RPers as well.

Bases. Sure. Some people who don't RP build bases which contain only TPers or Bins or vaults or storage. They won't bother to use the pool tables, cabinets, doors, or whatever else is put in. RPers will, instead. However some people just build bases to build bases. The additional pieces could interest them, as well.

Sure, players who don't RP use Power Customization. But the ones who do use it as well, and with more options to choose from, will try more set combinations for more interesting concepts.

New tilesets and items for the devs to make maps with, including little "One room" maps inside businesses to further enhance player immersion? I get that you don't care, but it also means more tilesets for future maps. and missions.

There -is- tons of potential, there. But unless you're daft you've -probably- noticed (by this point) that I'm basically suggesting a ton of stuff that isn't used EXCLUSIVELY by RPers, but instead can be used by a wide variety of players, even if it's initially aimed at RPers.

PvP tools are used by PvPers and maybe badgers or power-players...

RP tools are used by almost -everyone-

-Rachel-

you have a very limited point of view for someone who is the lead developer/creator of that mmo you are advertising in your sig.

pvp here has a ton of potential but it is being wasted and mismanaged. until pvp is deleted from the whole system it should be handled better.

sorry but the dev team is spread too thin on multiple project to properly handle most things. positron has good intentions for pvp by his statements, castle is obviously overworked, and given the past and current state of pvp there should be someone there who is mainly focused on all things pvp related. by adding a pvp dev the whole team can work more efficiently on all other areas as well thus taking another step foward to having a well rounded product.

Originally Posted by Black_Barrier Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...

So you'd rather they spend money on a Dev to focus entirely on PvP, which requires not only intimate knowledge of how the powers system is balanced (Castle) but how the Game's more basic systems work (Positron) and a comprehensive understanding of the tactics PvPers will use in different situations..?

You have an incredibly limited view of just how much knowledge is required to meet all three of those criteria... There is a reason Positron doesn't do the powers system, himself, rather than having Castle work on it almost exclusively, after all.

-Rachel-

Why does one have to be "more," they're not exclusive to each other. I wander in and PVP - though I can't say that community's ever seemed large. RP, I see everywhere - including during PVP.

It's easier to get a feel for a PVP population simply because the game's severely limited in where PVP can take place - four zones and the arena. RP, by contrast, isn't limited to (say) Pocket D. And it's not something "flagged" for. The same base I hop through to craft or go to another zone through, I'll join friends in for RP. I'll RP with friends in missions, or between them. I'll RP through choices in tip missions - nobody else can tell that I'm doing that, unlike when I'm PVPing (or at least looking for PVP.) And yes, even base design itself is an expression of RP for some.

You couldn't even get an idea through the party pack sales - some RPers, like me, don't find it compelling enough to purchase.

Anecdotally? Yes, I'd agree that there are more RPers - hardcore and casual - than there are PVPers. And I don't think there'd be any disagreement that I13 slaughtered the PVP population. Some pretty decent sized PVP SGs just vanished afterward, and I can't think of a single decent size (nearly full team vs nearly full team) zone fight I've had since then - even 4v4. The population's just not there.

A PVP-dedicated dev... PVP needs the attention, yeah. I don't know, right offhand, if the remaining population would survive another massive overhaul of the systems even if it were "perfect," or if the population would grow again this late in the game. A dedicated dev, I'm not sure of - they'd have to end up working through everyone else, after all. But more obvious dev attention? Yeah.

See my Guides and Tutorials

FWIW, I could count on one finger the number of RPers I have seen. I know no one has numbers and I don't doubt they exist. However, my point to the other poster was that PvP had a strong (emotionally if not in numbers) playerbase and they have established PvP content, listed above, that the devs could build upon. It could add a new dimension to this game - PvP mayhem or TFs, new bonuses to earn, and other suggestions put out before.

But RP?

I don't emote to complete TFs. I don't "walK" to travel between missions or while I am crafting IOs or shopping at the market. Buying emotes now too? If you like it, more power to you. But devoting a dev to it? I can't see any reason whatsoever.

The Role-player base. Thing is Penny, there never was a strong PvP player-base to begin with. One of the factors a lot of the vocal PvPer's hate me for is that I remember things they'd rather not be remembered.

Such as the Old Hollows driving more player traffic on each server than all of the open PvP zones combined. The Hollows Revamp was in Issue 12, long before the PvP rebalance in I13. Keep in mind that the role-player base on several servers was saturating Pocket D to the point of creating multiple instances.

Something else is entirely skipped over here, which is a complete inversion of how the the reward system functioned. A lot of players will work in-game content to get specific items for role-play purposes, such as running KHTF for the hat, or the Freedom Phalanx Task Forces for the epaulets, or the Hess Task Force for the loaded dice. Many of these unlockable costume parts and emotes were rewards for playing through existing content.

From a numerical standpoint, most players who have run a task force once, will run it multiple times once the primary reward was over. There are exceptions, such as the Sewer and Caverns Trials that most players would run only once.


In order to encourage players to participate in PvP the developers have been adding various rewards to the PvP system, trying to appeal to the different player cliques spread across the game. Most of these attempts have been outright failures:

• Many of the "badging" players as defined by players who have sought out and obtained all location badges, all history badges, and defeat badges, generally never did the PvP content again after obtaining the badge
• A significant amount of the player base that has extensive badge collections do not have the PvP oriented badges at all
• A significant number of in-game farmers work the rewards system by dual-boxing or triple-boxing rather than participating in active player combat.

From a purely numerical point of view the rewards added to the PvP system have failed to retain players who have participated in the content, as well as having failed to interest new players who are looking at City of Heroes as a game worthy of spending money on.

Way back when City of Heroes DVD collection launched it contained a printed comic featuring the characters of Scott Kurtz's PvP-Online interacting with City of Heroes. As far as I'm aware that comic has not been made available for reprint through an online source.

Back then that comic glossed over how players already were using existing powers to fit their roleplay. Power Customization extends the level of control players have over how their avatars interact with other avatars.

Does everybody role-play with their power customization changes? No.

Do a larger number of players leverage customization for their role-playing purposes than the player population that participates in PvP? From a purely numerical standpoint, this is probably a yes.

Could I prove it without diving through all of the chat-logs produced and cross-referencing those logs against the player traffic figures? Oh no. Even then, I'd have to have very specific and fine-grained detail to actually prove any kind of data point. So, this is effectively a moot point. Power Customization is it's own thing that impacts pretty much everybody, regardless of what the players actually use it for.

We noticed. The disconnect is pretty obvious between what Steampunkette is on about, and what you are on about. Now, could I explain what Steampunkette said in a way that would make sense to you? I'm not sure I can.

I can go back to empirical evidence that is known. Long ago there wasn't a Pocket D. There was Paragon Dance Party in City of Heroes, and then the Monkey Fight Club in City of Villains. These were largely role-play only sections of the game, and outside of the Council Invasion in Issue 3 have never experienced general combat.

The Paragon Dance Party zone drew so much player traffic that Pocket D was created, as well as the new canon lore character DJ Zero. The new Pocket D also included the Monkey Fight Club.

So, a role-play only zone drives enough player-base it creates a completely new zone and a completely new content character.

Versus... what has PvP introduced to the game just based on player-traffic alone?

Oh. yeah. Nothing. Everything PvP has introduced has been based on lack of player interaction.



At this point, I do realize that I'm rehashing pretty much everything I've ever said before, and that anybody who actually bothers to listen to the guy who actually has proven, multiple times, that he knows what he's talking about, already full-well knows the arguments and counter-arguments.

I also realize that anybody who can't figure out basic game design for themselves, and haven't picked up on the lessons from past posts, are probably not going to listen or learn the lessons this time either. Which leads to the saying throwing pearls to swine.

So, maybe I need to take a different approach since the calmly logical and forcing reality down readers throats hasn't worked in the past.

Okay, yes. NCSoft needs to hire a PvP developer.

They need to hire me.

OK, full stop right there.

Other than playing with only the exact same group of people, knowing that only one is interested in RP, TPing to missions, etc. you can't honestly say that.

Even with PVP being able to get a feel for numbers, you can't say "you haven't seen a PVPer because the zones/arena are empty." There's no flag that puts people up as "PVPer" or "RPer." Or even "Badger" - I have a few decent badge collections I've gotten just over playing the game for a few years, but I don't actively pursue it.

You don't know that the person standing next to you in Wentworths isn't an RPer. It's not just catgirls (to go by one stereotype.) Heck, even all catgirls aren't RPers - two I made up, I made up with zero RP in mind, just because I felt the names were amusing.

You don't know that that tank that's concentrating enemies so nicely for your AOEs to wipe out is or isn't an RPer. Or a PVPer.

Hell, you look at me, I *am* an RPer. And a PVPer. Are you sure you haven't encountered one of my 200+ characters? I don't note "RPer" or "PVPer" in my bio, I don't ((talk in parenthesis,)) I just do my thing. Sometimes expressed through base creation (for instance, a Kheld-specific group using a very light blue and purple to show a presence of both branches,) sometimes through a character bio, sometimes, yes, through specific choice of PC colors - but you wouldn't know it's RP-based if you saw any of it. (Well, aside from the bio, of course.)

RPers don't (generally) run around saying "Hey! I'm RPing! I RP!" to everyone they meet - so, unlike PVP (which *has* to concentrate in areas people meet, and again only has some designated spots it can occur) you can't actually make assumptions about if someone's interested in RP or not just by seeing them. (To be fair, you can't say that with PVP, other than the arena, thanks to shivans, nukes and badges.)

Point being, saying you've "only seen" x many RPers... you've probably seen more than you realize.

There isn't a need to devote a dev to RP content. RPers adopt all content - they'll pick specific missions because they fit a character, they'll use an area of a city for an RP setting, they'll pick costume pieces and power colors - these don't have to be designed with RP in mind. Now, base items - yeah, that helps to have "socializing" in mind, yes, but that's not necessarily "RP," just people wanting to have a nice base. It's also the only area I can say needs more dev attention on *that* side of the argument. Just ask in the base building forum.

PVP, on the other hand, needs dev *attention.* Not necessarily another dev, but we've got a large enough team now that the appropriate devs (or groups of devs) should give it another look.

See my Guides and Tutorials

A pvp dev would STILL need to work through the other devs and teams to get anything done.

Until the entire dev team's focus shifts to working on some areas of pvp I think it would be pointless to hire a pvp dev. They really couldn't get anything done until they had access the the REST of the company's personnel.

EDIT: Yes pvp needs more attention from the CURRENT dev team.

well they had a fairly strong pvp playerbase before they drove them all away. also i think its important to note that everything since RV and pvp zones, was in complete disreguard of pvp player feedback. see lighthouse's "i13 wasn't for pvpers and obtw im leaving" post.

didn't we just get the party pack? and don't they add new costumes and emotes with every issue? and wasn't there a massive issue about power customization relatively recently? I do agree that bases need love. hopefully when they bring base raids back



except they really didn't. they tried to make pvp more accessible to the people who have never pvped which isn't wasn't and never was the way to go about it. disregarding a current playerbase of any community for a massive change isn't the way to go about it. they never really tried to work on pvp, they just kind of half ***** it and when it back fired they washed their hands of it and literally haven't talked about pvp or anything related since 3 years ago. see all the pvp bug fixes that have yet to be changed in 3 years.

No. I want a collaboration of the devs to work out everything pvp related. and base raid related. which could all be done within the span of 1 issue. which for not acknowledging a certain playerbase exists for the past 5 issues i don't think is too much to ask for.

I'd like 1 dev to accurately listen the player base and report back to the other devs because the current dev team has shown an amazing inability to do so in regards to the pvp community. and from the times i've talked to mod08, he's basically doing this. granted i don't know how vocal he is (he says very but D.

note this isn't entirely true. as a matter of fact there were afew numbers. in lighthouse's goodbye post, he cited the pvp community, which he defined as being players who spent on average 1 hour a week in pvp, to be around 10-15% and that was given around i11 beta. it's also safe to say that the community like any other, fluctuated and could have easily been as high as 20% at its peak. now clearly after i13 that number dropped considerably but that was entirely dev caused.

also just saying that you've met more RPers so there must be more of them isn't quiet as substantial as it sounds. especially when you facter in that up until the character copy tool was broken, the majority (almost all) high end pvp took place on the test server. and also that Rpers are a much much more social group than PvPers and most pvpers never want to be noticed anyway.

this is entirely not true. the pvp community does not, in any way, want a experience where not all archtypes have a chance to win.

if we did, we'd be happy with the current incarnation of pvp. hell pre-13, many many many more ATs and powersets had a better chance to win than they do now. I don't know what pvp community you've been talking to, but going into RV and being overrun by scrapper with hibernate and sharks and your buffing characters are completely useless isn't a fun environment.

>.>
<.<

macskull?

I really really doubt that.

my personal favorite was when you claimed to have only been wrong once in 4 years then advised someone to make a spines/shield scrapper for max damage. phat lulz ensued.

I don't know. I just don't think adding another dev will add anything.

I mean they have an AE dev, much hasn't been done for AE in ages.

There are issues that those in the MA forums have been discussing for MONTHS and nothing has been done. And again, there ALREADY IS an a dev dedicated to it.

I just think that unless you get the FULL dev team (or more than just one person at the very least) focused on a issue, not much will be done by just adding another name to the door.

This. The point is that no one Developer will have a comprehensive understanding of the Powers system, the Basic mechanics of the engine, the PvPer's tactics and intents, a full understanding of what loopholes are going to rise, or what impact each and every change they implement will have on any given power.

For that you need a whole -team- of people. It's why I commented on a single Dev having all the knowledge required.

What PC guy is asking for is something else entirely: A Liason. Someone who goes between the PvPers and the Devs and carries their concerns. But if the Devs plan to hire a PvP Liason I'd want an RP liason first. If only to help get the canon sorted out, and some of the more specific stuff put into the game or altered to fit the storyline.

Manticore's "Canon Fodder" thread was a neat idea, but it has had incredibly limited involvement...

-Rachel-

I agree with this.

Heck, the Base Builders also had a dev (or so we thought) - but after I13 dropped, Sunstorm was no more to be seen in the Base Construction forum.

Devoting a Dev sounds nice in theory - but given the complexities involved, it would seem like a long training time for that single person, during which PvP would continue to languish.

Attention from the Dev Team - sure, it may be PvP's "turn". But a PvP Dev probably won't have the desired effect in close to a short timeframe.

which i don't think is unreasonable. the big difference between the two is you have devs directly tied to RP (jay and babs to some extent) where as pvp doesn't.

but an important thing to understand is that pvper just want their voiced to be heard which for the longest time, they haven't. putting 1 dev in charge to sort out the absolute mess the current dev team has made it is completely unreasonable. it'll take the entire dev team to fix it and atleast one (or at the very least, one of the current devs to act as a liason like RPers have) to maintain it.

sorry, i gues i felt it was implied, but i meant a pvp dev that was active. the base thing was bad. if that happened, blah.

Well said.

To clarify, I can recall one player using chat and emotes before attacking every group or when inviting players (he was the leader) do anything that resembles RP. I am aware that the 10 players around me in Talos WW could all be RPers, but they haven't done it in front of me, so I can't count them. So, recapping, 1 player I have seen RP. That's it. If others exist, I haven't seen it.

Anyhow Bill, to make clear my point: I support the suggestion of a dev devoted to PvP. Some poster thinks RP should have a dev and I disagree. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Win!