Lycantropus

Yeah, I know, which is why I prefaced with saying I'm not holding my breath in that regard...

Still think it would be cool to have in bases, though.

Mostly hero tips (with my 'main'). There's one with Hollow Point, and you rescue Sky Dragon in one, but the others must be villainside, which I'm just starting to expore in any repeatable capacity, so this may be my loss (I do recall a Mangle one...). Because Vigilante and Rogue missions don't carry over to the other side I haven't done them much and just used them transitionally. That may be my loss if there's good story there...

Maybe it's just my luck, but I don't get the Sky Dragon one (with 'evil' Doc Quantum) often. And while I do it when it comes up, am not fond of the Hollow Point one (Westin Phipps) it comes up maybe once or twice a week on my 'main' all told, but I do it.

That said, it boils down to tips just running together and getting lost in the blur of doing them so often. I know the Sky Dragon rescue and facing down Hollow Point well (I avoid the one where you help Frostfire in the Longbow base against Malta because I don't care much for Malta on my 'main', and almost forget about the 'He's a good-guy now of Ms. Thistle and Frostfire vs. Nemesis because it's so weak storywise, though I do it often).

Okay, fine, that's my fail. Familiarity breeds contempt (or failing that, neglect). Okay, pointing this out there's hero missions that illuminate a couple of their deeds in the 40-50 range, and presumably a few villain ones that do the same. In that, I actually feel ashamed I overlooked them (especially since I did a series of hero tips and morality earlier today).

However in my defense I could claim the bigger fail is the neglect that comes from repetition which, while I can claim my own for not doing the Vigilante/Rogue/Villain missions as well on a regular basis, I can't say I'm probably alone in doing, and missing the point of them for it.

This again, reinforces the fact, that I cherry-pick tip missions I suppose

Aaaand, you don't hear so much from them in the later levels, especially enough for that to be a relevant impact.

Now if more 40-50 missions involved facing those that stayed heroes or villains, it'd be more relevant. As it is they're, unfortunately, forgettable.

They should have left Malta, and Knives of Artemis, out of the equasion alltogether. They're secret organizations that have gotten more publicity than they deserve in the newer missions and tips than they would, and should, take credit for. Hints are fine, but ignoring the subterfuge they are (or should be capable of) is almost negligent in these missions.

There's no missions in the 40-50 range dealing with the life choices of No Mind or Towering Inferno, nor their reprecussions. It would make more sense if there were.

More importantly, I'd like to see Rogue Isles tip missions that let Vigilantes face them down on their own turf with the help (or at the request of) Longbow and the Legacy Chain and the like. I would love to rescue Sky Dragon being beaten by Mangle, carrying out his twisted villainout schemes. Conversely, why can't our Rogues help Icecap kidnap Overdrive in Paragon City with the help of Carnies or 5th Column (or at the request of) for similar reasons?

The acts of Vigilanes and Rogues are neglected as just 'transitional' points for heroes and villains where there's a wealth of storytelling that should exist there for their benefit alone.

Maybe that's my opinion, but I'd love to have a villian able to ravage Paragon, while my Vigilantes liberate the Rogue Isles...

This is a yes, and no.

Each gives a different badge, but that only benefits the badge collectors (and I have a character or two that collects the badges and have done so, so I can't complain). There's no temp power that allows the item to be a unique power grab in and of itself.

That said, I wouldn't want it applied to everything. Just everything that makes sense. If I get the 'Dagger of Erishkigel', why can't I (most importantly) use it, or sell it for lots of cash, or get it because I can trade it for X-I want, because someone else wants it because it's apparently a rare unique artifact? (coincidentally, I can't wait for temp power stacking to fall on all the temp powers for this reason...)

There are folks who love temp powers and collect them like badges. They like to pose with them when possible, though never or rarely use them, and have them in their temp power list for just that reaon (I have characters for that, too). There are also villains that would just sell them or destroy them. Why not give them all the option, while still being rewarded for getting it?

There's a part of me that wishes I left this 'mulitiple choice' out of the origial post, because that seems to be the focus. While it's a favored option of mine, I'd rather it be about how we can make hero and villain rewards/acknowledgements different enough to make it a different kind of game, creating a different playstyle different from City of Heroes and City of Villains to make them almost a different experience worth playing alltogether.

Yaknow, I'm personally of the opinion that (especially) the stuff we specifically buy should have a port over to every type of weapon it had every right to be in. If we bought the Vanguard Pack, for example, Widows should have the option for those claws.

Though I also feel If they want to spend their Vanguard Merits they should be able to get it as well. And If they go through the effort of running the villain story arc that gives the Rularuu claws, or goes to the Shard and gets the badge for Overseers, they should be able to access those too. They did the work, they should get the reward.

Then again, I'm also kind of an outlier in that I think a lot of the AR and Beam weapons could cross sets. I'm all for more options for everyone.

Even Khelds. Their auras are colored by their experiences and how they use their energies. Why couldn't have one been affected by radiation from the reactor and had their energy turn green...

>.>


<.<

What?

Oh, I didn't start this topic in the interest of nerfing villain rewards, but offering more options for them to better fit a villain's motivations.

In no way was my suggestion a 'sell', just something I was thought I'd present, and wanted to see what we, collectively, can come up with or find that could make villains just as desireable to play as heroes... something... different that sets them apart. This reward table idea is just one idea... I'd like to see others. Hopefully Zwillinger or one of the Dev's may poke in and read it, passing these ideas on.

I'd like to see villains, without being a 'more rewarding' experience than heroes, be different from heroes in how they are rewarded. Different mechanics and ways for them to do things that can set the redside experience apart from blueside.

Villains (generally, though not always, depending on their point of view) seek different rewards from their endavours than heroes. Their motivations often define how and why they're villains. Sure a hero may get to keep a 'goodie' as a souviner or to use for a time to 'test' it or whatever, but some villains want to steal things to use, or sell, or trade for something they do want, or destroy it for kicks. Having a way of expressing that would give a unique way of rewarding villains for their efforts, much like the system I'm suggesting above (which, by the way, offers the option of just keeping normal rewards if that's what they want).

Much like Mayhem missions accidentally accomplished, villains need more things that set them apart from the heroes. Not unfair, but different. What I was hoping to bring with this thread is discussion about how to do that, and be different enough from hero side to make being a villain as interesting and rewarding in its own right.

I'd be just as cool with that too. They could add it as a special contact early on they're introduced to, so they can set it initially, and can be an added function of Null the Gull as well if they want to change it later.

Like I said, I'm not wanting to put anything in cement. That's for those in power to do if they like any of what we're talking about.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree heroes can be just as complex and as pro-active as villains generally are, but it's still easier to write for them in-game because these contacts need help, and our heroes respond to the environment. It's much easier to imagine our protagonists doing their pro-active stuff "between the panels" (running their company, doing charity work, teaching at the University, supporting a cause, etc.)

I have a number of heroes with some very strong motivations; like my Stalker who, before Going Rogue came out, was a 'hero' in the Rogue Isles. I took paper missions and strung together my own stories for him making concentrated strikes on Arachnos (his main objective) and following clues to put a stop to other villain groups in the Rogue Isles as the story in my head dictated. He worked out rather well, all things considered. My University teacher in power armor takes up 3 character slots for his different armors, and each iteration added a new depth and understanding into his nature and what he's about. He's probably my most developed charcter out of all of my creations, hero or villain.

Completely agreed. I was kind of hoping with the creation of A.E. they'd incoporate some of those elements of 'plot creation' into their story arcs, with actual branching outcomes based on choices made by our characters. Different missions based on the different choices we made.

This would be great all around, but an amazing tool for villains to create their own plots and agendas without following some contact's lead (Imagine if you did a paper mission, got the goodie or whatever, then you had a choice of what to actually do with it, which led to another mission. Depending on what you did with that mission it would either end, or give you the option of another 'step' in your plot with another mission, so on and so forth).

It would be impossible to create a step for every scenario imagineable, but if they went on the base motivations that's been discussed, I'm sure that would still satisfy a lot of villain character types.

Cool, Zwillinger

While you're at it, could you check on Robot Masterminds too? They're lazer weapons, but haven't had a single new model ported to them since they came out. I'd really like the option of some of those newer models for mine. (the D.U.S.T. Cannon and Shard Cannons in particular).

Is there a reason they haven't been, or just missed by accident?

I really, REALLY hope they decide to made Vigilante missions in the Rogue Isles that let them work with Longbow and other forces to help put the isles right (and let Rogues terrorize Paragon with Rogue missions). My first Vigilante from villain was a workaround on a Stalker I made before all this came out. He was a "hero" from the Rogue Isles who wanted to chase off Arachnos and others from victimizing its citizens. I ran paper missions and made my own 'journal' to tie those together into storylines based on villain groups and objectives as a thought experiement for fun.

I had to remake his SG base and get the prestige back up when I made the proper alignment change, but it was worth it... Now if only he could do some real good on the isles...

Anyway. Yes, I cherry pick the hell out of tips. I only have time to run tips when I'm solo (unless that's what we do for SG night then I just run whatever folks have and want to do). They're my 'guilty pleasure' where I get to play my main who's "been there, done that" with pretty much everything but getting the last few VR pieces he needs to T4 his incarnates. There's a couple I just don't care for. Either I have to wait for the series of ambushes (Panther 541) or the "Stop the Assassinations" (2 carnie bosses per hostage? Just annoying!)

There's not a lot I skip on him, but there are less than a handful I'll drop just because they aren't suited to him. Other characters, when I bother, have other tips they'll skip/take based on their capabilites and their preferences. As I've run them over, and over, and over... I don't feel like I'm missing anything by it, and only run them for fun anyway.

Besides, if you know a mission by its title before even opening the text to accept or decline, you have probably already earned the right to do either having enough experience with it to even know...

So you're the Clockwork King?

I keed, I keed.

I find that while in most cases I like my heroes more, my villains have, in general, much better defined motivations (of course, there are exceptions to the rule on both sides).

My original villain was my namesake's creator, and arch-nemesis. A very old French commoner who saw lycanthropy as the 'gift of godhood' He is archaic (and presumes no need to progress himself) sees himself as a god made flesh, and of refined taste, but ultimately he's a self-absorbed megalomaniac who will gain anything he actually desires by force (couldn't do the Patron arcs when they came out. If he wanted the power he'd just beat their secrets out of them, no betrayal, no bargaining) So I came to the conclusion he didn't care. That ultimately left me asking... then what DOES he want, and from that learned he was rather shallow ultimately, and a bit of a coward at his core. Anything he couldn't accomplish through brute force just wasn't worth his time... at least that's what he kept saying to me (so to speak).

I then chose my 'main' to be my Robots MM (people are good for 'broad stroke' endeavours and are easy to ply to my cause- robots are much better for 'fine work'). He's much more developed, though more difficult to pin down. He ultimately wants what he wants, and doesn't care what he does to get it. Pure amorality wrapped in mystery. If being seen as a hero gets him what he wants, he'll do it. He will manipulate, lie, steal, cheat, benefit, help, hinder, heal or harm as it comes to achieve his goals. His ultimate goal, of course, is world domination. The big catch for him though, is he wants it to be given to him, not taken by force. A true megalomaniac, he wants the world to realize they 'need' his guidance. He is, by far, the most cerebral villain I have, and finding the justification for some of the things he does is a great thought experiment in and of itself.

Those two aside, my most 'stand out' characters are a super-wealthy 'industrialist'/sabetour who uses his earth powers for personal gain as a 'contractor' to other companies (clear cutting and strip mining illegally but since he's using powers instead of machines he's hard to catch- so what if there was a landslide, the company didn't create it, only took advantage of it!). A creation of my original Brute, she stalks him and only wants to see the world burn, while being in love with, fascinated, spurned by, and despising him... My demon MM who was a two-bit Hellion thug who just wanted real power at almost any price and got it, an insane doctor who sees himself as already ruling over all he surveys (a Emp/Beam Defender who sees his teammates as his 'minion's' like a Mastermind would) a former Goldbricker who turned to Arachnos to become more than he was (Soldier/Crab), The daughter of a Brazillian pirate king who turned to Arachnos to do more for herself (Widow) A Tsoo sorcerer who learned the 'jade magic' of the spirit folk and was turned on by his fellow Tsoo for it (and wants revenge) a ravening fire monster who just mindlessly destroys everything in his path (Fire/Fire Brute I mostly street sweep with and occasionally run tips) a being who actively hunts sinners to feed upon their hearts and souls (a Wendigo)... I have more...

I think the point I'm trying to make is villains are not like heroes. Heroes stop threats... they respond, react. Villains cause, act upon their desires regardless of how society dictates how people should act. Sure there's the broad stroke power/revenge/money/etc... but their reasons are highly varied. I can play a hero for many levels before I really get a feel for their motivation, but villains it comes very quickly. If it doesn't, I lose interest in playing them. The stories the game provides does not, generally at any rate, satisfy the 'palate' of most of my villains. They're too generic.

Heroes are easy. "Someone's doing this! Stop them please!" well most heroes will step in and do what they can... it's what heroes do, even if they aren't personally motivated by the act. Sure HeroX may have a thing against drug dealers, but they'd be a pathetic hero indeed if they ignored Joe's cries for help against the clockwork kidnapping his family. They may sigh and roll their eyes hoping for Tsoo or Outcasts to fight, but they generally won't say no.

Villains on the other hand, are instigators. They need choices that heroes or others can respond to. That's really hard in mission writing, but they either need variety in the types of missions, or more choices, and rewards for those choices that benefit the villain. When CoV was in Beta (or after live, I forget) I suggested that initial villain contacts should be based on motivation, as opposed to heroes that were based on origin. At least cater to the destroyer types that just want to break everything down, monarchs who want to rule the world, and the mercenary thugs (where the biggest direction of the villain game writing went) that just want to get rich.

Getting into more detail than that starts getting too complex, but if they at least did that, it may have gone toward satisfying those more complex palates that villains possess.

Anyway, that's a lot of text, the tl/dr version is basically, heroes are responders, villains are instigators. Writing for heroes is easier than villains, and motivations should have been better catered to than the mission-giver's desires at CoV launch, but it looks like they're trying to get better (outside of that extended Dr Graves tutorial *shudder*. I like the Shining Stars... don't care for the Graves one at all.

That pretty much sums up my feelings.

Honey Badger wants more aura suggestions!

Q: But what about budgets and time?

A: Honey Badger doesn't give a pancake! He doesn't care how long it takes! He wants more auras and he's gonna make em!

How about a "Self Destruct" costume change? (like the cyborg power)?

A Sun and Moon aura that appears right behind the character's head, like the Celestial backpack pieces? Heck, loyalty icons, many of the chest symbols would look cool like that too... and how about a rainbow?! (I know there's an entire segment of the game pop that would like that one) You could include small glowing forehead options of the same icons, and glowing eyes as well. A lot of anime has similar things. Maybe even fist options. Think of fists glowing like the sun, or crescent moons over the knuckles (and I can even see characters scream out "Taste the Rainbow *%*$%#!!!" if you included that one! )

And I know you guys are talking about merging some auras to include trail auras. I really want to see that.

Honestly, you guys have been doing a great job so far. Glad to see you on the boards, and keep up the good work!

If bases are a 'legacy system' they have to reverse engineer... I can't imagine what they think of the geysers. They've been around pretty much since the game was created, and they haven't designed anything really similar since.

Which is kind of a shame, 'cause I think they're cool concepts.

I stand corrected I don't know how I could have forgotten about those...


On the other hand, if the Shard is going to figure heavily into future content, I'm sure they'll probably give them a looking-at. Otherwise, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Nah, it's a secret 'public' headquarters. Only "Pure Heroes" know about it. It... apparently gets sucked out of your mind if your alignment becomes something else.

>.>

<.<

Anyway...

Yeah, but he's only part lion. A Manticore... according to Wikipedia

So according to this, it could also be a hutch, lair, or... what something with horns might have...

Besides, his den is upstairs and has a very spiffy fireplace

Plus, on top of all of that, he's also part-hero *rimshot*, and they can have headquarters, hideouts, and even fortresses of solitude!

(I hope everyone realizes I'm doing this in fun and not trying to start some flame war over the... Manticave... or whatever it's decided to be)

Heh, not quite

Fort Trident is a Longbow base they're using for their 'public access' headquarters. Manticore has always had his... (Manticave, maybe?) and is now letting them use it as their private headquarters.

I can forgive a LOT of things, and even rationalize what the Dev's are thinking until this, well said, point comes up.

If levels = time, then things shouldn't be revealed before that level, lest the story arc, when you reach it, becomes meaningless. I LOVED the eloquence of this concept, but it has since fallen to the wayside in the name of efficiency for whatever's convenient to whatever we want to do in X level range at the time, and frankly, confuses new players who actually try to follow every storyline they can.

I understand that time moves forward, but if they're going to bring it into lower levels, they need to retire story arcs and start dating things in the Oroborous as to why they retired X.

There are those of us who do actually care what our heroes and villians experience and when they do so. I'm not a rules lawyer by any definition (hating the type as a GM myself) but there's still something that needs to be observed in terms of 'old' vs. new' and how it previously applied to time = levels, because that doesn't seem the case as much as it used to. What's the point of doing the arc where you find out Rikti are humans from another continuum when it's discussed in an arc at an earlier level? Either retire the older arc (and put in Oroborous- this, too, is important) and make a new arc with that contact that reflects that new reveal, or if you don't want to change it, respect the timeline in terms of levels and set it for a later point. The former takes more time and effort on their part (having to re-write arcs and whatnot) however making it available to players at an earlier level. The latter is more cohesive but more restrictive to the levels that can access it. Unless you chose as the Dev's appeared to, by sacrificing overall quality of the game's story itself, one or the other should be observed.

Frankly, while it's convenient to ignore from a development standpoint, it's confusing to those who actually care about how, and when, the world develops in any given characer's carreer.

I've been with this game a loooong time, and genuinely care about the story and how it plays out. There's a certain level of professionalism I expect the ones who ultimately control the history, and future, of this game to care about as much, if not more, than I, who just plays the game. Just sayin'.

EDIT: And to reiterate something someone else pointed out in another context:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow See, because we, as players, know these things from previous playthroughs, then obviously the world at large knows these things, right? Right? Never you mind that that makes a whole lot of stories, not to mention large chunks of the persistent world, nonsensical and pointless.

Every day is somebody's first time playing the game. (or we should assume this). Almost every day in Help chat I see a new player to the game who's asking questions. Not every player is a veteran, no matter how many are... (I know you get this, Sam, and this is more about pointing this out to the Dev's than you.)

Doesn't surprise me...

I blame Becktrees... and that insipid smile of his... >.>

Sorry I'm late to the discussion...

I've actually run into this with my namesake Claws/Invul Scrapper, since I run him every day I can for the tips/Hero Merits. I'll do an AoE attack, miss a target, then do a single target, and miss. Though it is irregular, I have had up to 3 misses in a row (the 3rd also being single-target) with this combo at a 95% chance to hit. This has also presented itself with my Invul/Axe Tank namesake on Exalted since leveling him to 50. I play him a lot too, so am inclined to notice such irregularities. I just figured that AoE's had a 'different' streak breaker limit vs single target, whether it was implied or not, which would explain everthing I seem to have experiened.

But if it's not, having experienced a number of misses that seemed to me to be too many, I've taken to keeping my last ToHit chance right under my target tab in the upper-middle of my screen. Now, interestingly enough, I don't generally run Invincibility on my Scrapper, which would increase ToHit (even though it's still showing 95%) so I don't think that's a culprit.

However, this is anecdotal evidence. I'll have to start recording my combat logs like done above to ensure there's anything afoot, but as far as my anecdotal evidence is concerned, it might be worth looking into. I'm not a number cruncher, so all I have is personal experience in this case.

Based on what I've been able to tell, the most important question I can ask, is there a difference between PBAoE attacks, AoE attacks, cone attacks, and single target attacks, and their effects on the Streak Breaker? That's where I seem to have run into the most... discrepancies. Again, anecdotal without hard data and screenshots backing it up.

AND the more tuna you have to have (which is what they added to the harder trials)... pretty much, yeah. I, as a general rule, won't lead trials. I genuinely don't have the patience or presense of mind, to do so. So for me, even bad trial leaders I give kudos to for at least being willing to attempt leading them.

That's another consideration. The more complex the trial, the less folks will be willing to lead them. Nobody wants to fail, even less want to be 'that guy (or girl)' that led the failed one. This is even moreso applied when it comes to participants.

There are two trial leaders I will willingly join every time I have the opportunity on my home server (or otherwise if they so deign but they seem commited), no matter what trial they run. I trust their ability to lead and explain, and have never run a failed trial with them at the lead. Getting a particular badge they were going for... maybe, but that's always chancey and when they asked they said they were trying for it, not guaranteeing success. I have always been honored when they ask because it means they think I can hold up my end of the deal.

There's a couple I will never run with, because the few times I ran with them (and have always given more than one chance) they capslocked, blamed everyone but themselves, were total pancakes over the whole ordeal, and never once owned the failure upon themselves in any way. Or even worse, started a league and then went on the idea that everyone should know what they're doing and never once gave any instruction at all, win or lose, and again, complained that others didn't do what they were supposed to do. Even then I've never spoken against them... I've just never sent the tell or tried to join whatever league they're forming.

Now, out of all the trials, I've never ran a MoM. Not because I don't want to, but because nobody, no group I've ever run into, wants to run them. Ever.

Some have suggested it and I've said "sure, why not?!" and the group screamed them down. At 50 I could care less about debt, and have learned to just enjoy and experience the story at 50+ (debt before then isn't my favorite, but even then it's just a badge at the end of the day...) However, even then there are folks that are squeamish about running anything more intensive than a BAF or Lambda, even with the changes to Keyes. They'll quit team at the first sign that it'll be at all challenging. Some will stay but still be unhappy about doing anything other than the BAF/Lam combo.

That, in and of itself, should be telling about the state of Incarnate trial content, because outside of a few exceptions I'm not picky in the slightest who's leading, and never about which one we're doing...