Kruunch

SS is a tad poor (FM I *think* isn't that great on single target either but I haven't looked at the numbers recently).

Animation times being the operative factor above.

Yeah it happens to AAO too. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it happens to all toggles with a tick check ... the most likely cause are the effects overlapping per tick (and/or possibly just a display timing issue overlapping per tick).

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I can agree with getting rid of TO enhancements. I haven't slotted a TO since August '04.

I also like where you're going with adding an endurance modifier to Gauntlet. My only issue is that it takes us back into the realm of a behind the scenes effect and I'd really like to see something that makes Gauntlet more visible or tactile.

As I mentioned before I think that allowing debuffs and controls to be as effective as damage in defeating mobs would help alot of outstanding issues. For example, if a WP/Mace tanker could stack his damage with the stun delivered by his attacks then he would defeat the mob that much quicker which would translate to better DPE and survivability.

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Except that you now encroach on the Scrapper AT.

If you need a visual queue for this new effect how about everytime it activates a though balloon appears above your head saying:

YEAH BABY I AIN'T WAITING FOR END!!!!!!!!!!!

Could throw in a KA-POW! and a BANG! in there for good measure.

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I've solo'd AVs on my Inv/SS but there is a certain wall that I've hit with regen/heal intensive AVs.

I would think SD/DM (if it can hold up) or Invuln/DM would make for great AV killers.

Stone, Axe and WM would probably fall next and Fire Melee if paired with FA.

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Nihilii, would you agree with these statements? I would think FM and Nrgy Melee would be above Stone, Ax, and WM. I was thinking of going either Nrgy Melee or FM with Inv. for the defense/resist, I have a SS/Fire Brute that pumps so much dmg it's unreal; however, he often gets One shotted. He's IO"d to the tune of 3-4 bil as well, so it's not for lack of IO's. Put me up against any fire dealing foes and I can cake walk it, most anything else, face plant. So, back from that tangent. . .I don't care for DM all that much for a Super type character, if I am min maxing then for sure. For, a Superman homage though I was thinking either Fire Melee or Nrgy melee.

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The problem with EM is that the long animation times of its heavy hitters actually end up reducing the overall DPS you can achieve with the set.

Fire is a bit diffuse via AOEs and also has some animation time issues.

DM has the DPS capability (especially when paired with Shields) and the added utility of being able to go through long fights.

Stone has just about the quickest animations to single target attacks (it produces the best attack chain imo). The only issue with SM (and any quick attack chain) is running out of end.

WM and BA both (I think) have the DPS for AVs with BA being slightly better for single target damage. Unfortunately weapon draws and animation times slightly lower their attack chain speed.

Ice Melee doesn't have the single target DPS to take down an AV (iirc).

Don't know enough about Dual Blades to comment.

From a "toughness" standpoint ...

Stone Armor is toughest but recharge and damage penalties I think take it out of the running for an AV killer unless supremely built (Stoners correct me if I'm wrong).

Invuln seems the best choice here (to me) out of the box with a mix of all purpose toughness (and very strong to S/L) ... if it's a psi based AV then you're going to be out of luck.

WP is a bit squishy and doesn't typically do well against large single target alphas but can be built to stand up. This is probably your best bet for long haul fights.

Ice and Shield are both good, the former for staying power and the latter for damage, however both suffer from number generator syndrome being defense based sets which means a string of bad luck and down you go. For AV soloing I would probably give the nod to Ice Armor (depending the secondary and particular AV of course).

Fire Armor is a bit squishy but if you can build it to stand up then it becomes #1 as it returns the best rate of additional damage.

DA ... don't know it well enough to comment other then to say it's fairly endurance heavy so not sure how good the set is over the long haul.

P.S. - It's not the amount of influence you've spent on your toon that determines how well built it is for a given task.

WP/WM ... funnest Tanker to level (at least from the 16 or so I've levelled) ... great damage and utility.

Plan on taking Tough/Weave somewhere in your 30s if you want to tank for full groups.

P.S. - Have a Spines/Fire Scrapper that can tank AE boss missions (or I should say solo full spawns) so tanking a boss farm on a Fire/Fire shouldn't be a problem if that's your goal. And Jebe has a Dark/Dark that tanks (and solos if the group dies) AE boss farms just fine. (and I can tank these on my WP Tanker as well).

I find WP the easist to level as it has the least amount of "gadgets" allowing you to concentrate on your melee while solving the endurance woes of Tankers at a crowd pleasing L12 (Quick Recovery) instead of L20 (Stamina). They are also a lot of fun to slot for not having to worry too much about recovery.

Good luck

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Yeah, if you are worried about stamina, then I would suggest not taking Smite. On my tank I had Shadow Maul instead of Smite and I had no end issues (I had Dark Consumption and Stamina) but when I switched to Smite, all of a sudden I had to worry about it.

I'm not saying that it was a problem, but I had to manage my attacks better because the stamina bar would go down so much faster.

As others have said, if you are looking for mainly single target, then smite is better, but if you're looking for a little of everything, then grab Shadow Maul.

@Nihilii: Man really? I was hoping that with having the proc on Shadow Maul, it would make all my other attacks (SL, MG, etc) become stronger for that duration. That makes me rethink my new slotting ideas.

Edit: Ok, I just read Werner's post. I was thinking of using the proc on Shadow Maul mainly for the AV soloing thing. The only other way that I can get a -res, would be to take Laser Beam Eyes and putting an Achilles' Heel there. But maybe just putting a damage proc in SM and calling it a day should be what I do. What do you guys think?

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If you are going to solo AVs you're going to want Smite (and probably a proc in it to boot).

That's why I'm keeping both Shadow Maul and Smite for now ... AOE goodness and single target kick assedness all in the same build. The current build puts out enough damage that I don't feel like I'm missing out on the APPs and will only increase as I raise my recharge and recovery.

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To the OP: I would rather see endurance scaling on powers (or part of the inherent) then a damage bump.

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Can you elaborate on the endurance scaling? While I'm down with the idea of alleviating endurance costs for tankers I was trying to come up with something that was more visible or proactive during game play.

We could take a page from Champions Online and make the Tier I and Tier II attacks endurance builders.

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Specifically add a component to Gauntlet that divides endurance cost by level and adds that back to the Tanker when Gauntlet hits (the number junkies can give you the exact equation if it comes down to that) so that the higher the level, the less endurance is returned until at a certain point you either cut it off entirely or through equation come to a zero-sum gain. I would include this on all attacks, not just the T1 and T2 attacks (although formula-wise it would only really matter for the T1-3 attacks realistically speaking).

Mind you we're all trying to come at multiple issues here from a single solution which I don't think can ultimately work correctly.

Low Level Tanker Issues:

1) Sub par damage.

2) Grossly inefficient endurance usage.

3) Grossly underprotected.

Of course a simple one stop shop solution would be to remove TOs and DOs from the game and start SO's from L1. With IOs and level proliferation, they almost have no place in the current game as it stands other then to confuse the true new player.

My Spines/Fire currently runs with about 34% Melee Defense and 55% S/L resists which makes him durable (if not Tanker like) enough to be able to take an alpha and still come up smiling.

This also means I hit the softcap on Defense with minor help.

I much prefer that mode of play to the "I hope we get the right kind of Defender/Troller/Tanker combo so I don't go splat every other pack". And as I said before, if you're juking and jiving a ton, you're really missing out on your full damage potential.

Oh and with Fiery Embrace and Build Up a Kin isn't adding all that much to my damage potential as I hit the damage cap fairly easily (now a Dark/Rad/Therm ... woohoo!).

Anyways if you have the influence (and its not an expensive build for a Scrapper) try it out on a second build. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at just how much more of a beast you become (from a "I ain't splatting a lot" standpoint). You'll notice that the slotting choices are geared around increasing Melee defense where possible which is the big one for this build.

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Tankers don't need more survivability.

They are more than survivable enough to complete any solo content in the game.

On teams, if they were any more survivable, there really wouldn't be a need for any of the buff/debuff ATs.


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This is only true at the upper levels and of certain Tanker sets.

At lower levels L1-30, Tankers do not enjoy those benefits. It's one of the ultimate ironies of this game that the most challenging content in the game is at the lowest levels.

To the OP: I would rather see endurance scaling on powers (or part of the inherent) then a damage bump.

I'm of the opinion that Tanker's don't really need a damage bump (maybe certain sets do but that's a different issue).

I long ago gave up the quest for a Stamina-less Tanker.

Much easier now with WP being a primary and IO sets but I just assume Stamina and move on.

Not to mention the powers I would most likely replace the Stamina line with would be the APPs, which would just make me need more then Stamina (or equivelant) useage so I'm back to square one

I've solo'd AVs on my Inv/SS but there is a certain wall that I've hit with regen/heal intensive AVs.

I would think SD/DM (if it can hold up) or Invuln/DM would make for great AV killers.

Stone, Axe and WM would probably fall next and Fire Melee if paired with FA.

Stamina-less tanking ewwwwwww!

Smite is a good power, but you might find your Stamina woes worsened with Smite over Shadow Maul. Smite's quick recharge and animation time mean you can spam it more then Shadow Maul and over the course of a fight, end up using much more Endurance.

However as a single target attack, Smite is so much more efficient then Shadow Maul. I have both in my current build (which I'm still fiddling with) so I can switch from an AOE chain to a single target chain without missing a beat (or losing any damage efficiency).

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Hey, thanks for posting the build, Kruunch. I would make the suggestion not to slot Obliteration, as good as it is, in Consume. Go with something else like Efficacy Adaptor. The boost to the end drain will be a big deal, and no one should be taking Consume for just damage.

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The reason to go Obliteration over Efficacy Adaptor is for the defense set bonus (a tastey 3.75% melee) and Obliteration is recharge intensive whereas Efficacy Adaptor is only slightly above moderate recharge. The damage is just gravy. As far as for slotting for endMod in general, I tend to fight large packs of mobs where there is no shortage of fodder for Consume so it tends to crop up very rarely that I need to blow Consume on a single mob (and I pop a blue when those rare instances happen).


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You can also move one of those slots from Tough to an earlier armor power and put that Steadfast Prot +ResDam/Def earlier on so you can have the benefit of it.


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Good catch ... I should have stuck it in Fire Shield.

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And if one can manage it, getting a Ragnarok Proc slotted in Throw Spines does WONDERS for survivability. Knocking down mobs is great to keep you alive...and the proc isn't too expensive to slot, either.

That is my two cents, otherwise that build is pretty good for an average cost IO build.

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I agree .... I tend not to slot purples or rares unless absolutely essential to the build as, in my experience, the average player doesn't very often aspire to these.

Not many players look at Scrappers from a defensive point of view first (and I was one of these on my other Scrappers) however I found Spines/Fire to be so squishy and generate so much agro as to drive me nuts.

With the added positional defenses in I13 (I think?) and the corresponding addition/changes of certain IO sets the possibility of making a sturdier damage monster became easier to accomplish and this one has become one of the funnest AT combos I've played in CoH

I think he was talking about the AV version.

Yeah it is

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I was basing my comments on a quote I found from Castle here:

"Slotting enhancements into powers they were not meant to be slottable in is an 'exploit.' We've pretty much firmly established that. The question isn't if something being abused in this manner will be changed, it's a matter of when. "

Of course when I follow the link to that it doesn't show up so I'm guessing this was said a long time ago? Anyway I'll think about it, it still seems a bit cheap to me but a lot less so than strafing SM.

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Well if it doesn't feel "right" to you then yeah, don't use it.

Some other points with your build:

1) It's over the top for +recovery. You just don't need that much with Dark Consumption. Even slinging around the quick single target attacks only you won't make a dent in your end bar past need much more then 2.2/s. I'd work on +health over the amount of +recovery you have (SD/DM's health tends to yo-yo a lot in extreme tanking).

2) It's a really expensive build that requires all those LotG: +Recharge (combined with the rest of the recharge buffs) for Siphon Life (your bread and butter) to be up at a reasonable rate. It's a good build if you have that stuff in place (or are rich) but without it, you'd probably want to reconsider re-slotting SL with more recharge.

3) If you are going to actually have that much +recharge (not to mention recovery) you may want to throw rechRedux in your Active Defense, so you can triple stack it which with Grant Cover and Battle Agility will cap your Resist Defense Debuff (especially if you're not going the Hamio route with Battle Agility and AD). This is really the Achilles Heal of Shields (defense debuff) more then anything else (besides the random number generator).

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Hrm, I like that one better than the setup I previously mentioned. It's a pity I can't get Dam/Heal/Rech to the 90's and Acc/End in the 50's without going into purple and Hami territory.

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Hami-Os aren't too terribly expensive, a level 50 one just runs for a couple of million.

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A lot of Hamios are going for over 50mil now.

I slotted Performance Shifter into my WP/Stone ... basically is the only thing I need to take the bite off of chaining my attacks continously for minutes on end.

But no, you don't *need* it. Take the money and run.

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melt armor is absolutely terrible for tanks. High endurance, long recharge minimal debuff (esp. considering purple patch).

Fireball and Ice Storm are similar damage over time, but if you like having something to use more often fireball is better.

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I disagree about Melt Armor ... especially for Tankers nearing the damage cap. Also with a decently built Tanker, the recharge time can be fairly minimized to something managable. Not to mention having another form of AOE agro.

If you're going to go Pyre to get to Fireball, then I'd suggest picking up Melt Armor.

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Nice! Thanks for posting these up. I've been waiting to check them out to see what you can do. My current build doesn't have Shadow Maul, but I've been looking for a good reason to bring it back.

I've also just had a crazy notion to put a Fury of the Gladiator -res proc into Shadow Maul, so that it serves another purpose than just damage and the - to hit.

Time to start downloading the videos.

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Anyone know if procs work off ticks or single activation?

I hear Jackie Gleeson yelling "Bang! Zoom!"

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Yeah, saw the videos. At 4 average targets, with a 1s delay to move to setup the Shadow Maul, you're looking at a 28% increase in DPS on groups. So basically you've got a 29% DPS increase versus single targets versus a 28% DPS increase against groups. It's up to you of course but I think the single-target damage boost is a no-brainer.


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Forgetting the play-by-math criteria you're postulating here for a moment, this isn't an either-or scenario. You have both Shadow Maul and Smite ... switch from AOE to ST based damage. That's the beauty of DM that most people miss ... and it works especially well when combined with Shields.

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Also I feel like it would cost me a lot as a tank to be constantly maneuvering for SM damage not to mention that I hate the 3s animation delay where I can't react to anything.


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When fighting in AOE mode you're right ... it's harder to focus on crowd control in the same manner as a more conventional Tanker might. On the other hand, it's up to you as the player to recognize when you need to be more on the ball, and make that mental switch (the difference between being a good Tanker and being a taunt-bot basically).

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As for "exploity" I think it's pretty obvious that strafing to maximize cones isn't intended behavior. If you can't see that I think you're probably trying not to look very hard. I mean go for it, ultimately it's up to the devs, not me or you, to decide something that like. For me though it just breaks the gameplay experience a bit to do something so obviously non-intuitive and wacky. I'm more powergamer than RP'er but that doesn't mean I don't care at all about immersion.

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I'm not sure how to respond to this without sounding really sarcastic but here goes ...

I would have agreed prior to the cone fix, with hitting mobs that were easily 20ft out of range. However since the devs have addressed that, one can only assume that the current state of Shadow Maul (and cones in general) is what the devs intended.

From an immersion stand point, I'm not sure what kind of fights you've been involved in personally, or comic books you've read, or fights you've seen on TV, but in virtually none of those have I witnessed someone standing perfectly still while doing the fighting. If anything, having to move around to maximize your damage *adds* to the immersion factor for me.

If you don't want to use Shadow Maul, that's cool and I respect (if not totally understand) your decision but kind of in the same way I respect a Tanker's decision not to use Stamina (I think they're foolish for not but in the end, it's your $15/mo).

McBoo has a 95% chance to hit The Point and rolls a 97.

McBoo has missed The Point.

Not likely but I'll try to make some smaller sized vids in the future.

Until then get off the tin can and strings