Before I get into anything else, may I ask why this is limited to the tier I and II attacks? Those tend to be the weakest attacks in any given set. 30% of Jab's damage is almost nothing, even in the lower levels.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Before I get into anything else, may I ask why this is limited to the tier I and II attacks? Those tend to be the weakest attacks in any given set. 30% of Jab's damage is almost nothing, even in the lower levels.
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Just as a starting point really, the Tier I and Tier II attacks are exclusively single target across all tanker secondaries. The percentage of damage applied can be modified as needed to make the effect more useful during game play.
I wanted to have it apply to Tier I through Tier III originally but Fire, Ice and Dark have AoEs or cones as their Tier III attack. I'm open to suggestions on how to add a Critical Taunt effect to those attacks. Perhaps adding extra DoT for all mobs hit?
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
I'm of the opinion that Tanker's don't really need a damage bump (maybe certain sets do but that's a different issue).
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I'm of the opinion that Tanker's don't really need a damage bump (maybe certain sets do but that's a different issue).
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I share this opinion but I can also understand the OP's point about the lower levels. To me the lower levels problem is more survivability than damage though. The problem is trying to actually tank or do anything, you can generate threat, but don't have the tools to deal with it.
Maybe something like an inverse level buff for the really low primary powers? You get a multiplier that slowly goes down as you level up? Maybe the end cost is low at the beginning for toggles, but gradually goes up as you level?
Just thinking out loud.
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Tankers don't need more survivability.
They are more than survivable enough to complete any solo content in the game.
On teams, if they were any more survivable, there really wouldn't be a need for any of the buff/debuff ATs.
More survivability along with better taunting, are the last two things Tankers need.
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Well the Mark I suggestion was to have all mobs hit by the Gauntlet effect of any tanker's single target attack to get hit with the secondary effects (i.e. KD, stun, slow, etc.) for that attack. I still prefer that idea over a damage boost but I'm always up for brainstorming. 
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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[QR]
Tankers don't need more survivability.
They are more than survivable enough to complete any solo content in the game.
On teams, if they were any more survivable, there really wouldn't be a need for any of the buff/debuff ATs.
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This is only true at the upper levels and of certain Tanker sets.
At lower levels L1-30, Tankers do not enjoy those benefits. It's one of the ultimate ironies of this game that the most challenging content in the game is at the lowest levels.
To the OP: I would rather see endurance scaling on powers (or part of the inherent) then a damage bump.
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Add a percentage chance equal to a scrapper's Critical Hit for all mobs affected by the Gauntlet effect from a Tier I or Tier II tanker attack to suffer 30% of the base damage suffered by the original target. The effect would apply to Tier I and Tier II attacks only and not be enhanceable. This would allow for more a group fighting feel to tanker combat and help tankers with soloing at all levels. More importantly it would help tankers through the lower levels where they seem to be found wanting.
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This would almost not be noticable.
A chance equal to a Scrapper's Critical Hit to deal an extra 30% on the base damage of a Tier 1 or Tier 2 attack?
Scrapper's Critical is 5% chance against Minions or below, 10% against critters above.
Jab deals 30.3 base. 30% of that is 9.09.
Your asking for a 5% chance to deal that every Jab attack?
That averages to something like only increasing jab from 30.3 to 30.7545
Whoop de frikkin' do.
Punch, same deal. The numbers and chances are just too tiny. It's pointless.
5% or 10% for Critical hit works because A) It's on every attack, not just two, or maybe even one, in the attack chain and B) Because it's 100% of the base.
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To the OP: I would rather see endurance scaling on powers (or part of the inherent) then a damage bump.
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Can you elaborate on the endurance scaling? While I'm down with the idea of alleviating endurance costs for tankers I was trying to come up with something that was more visible or proactive during game play.
We could take a page from Champions Online and make the Tier I and Tier II attacks endurance builders.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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[QR]
Tankers don't need more survivability.
They are more than survivable enough to complete any solo content in the game.
On teams, if they were any more survivable, there really wouldn't be a need for any of the buff/debuff ATs.
More survivability along with better taunting, are the last two things Tankers need.
.
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You mean ... Quite WRONG.
Tankers do need more survivability at the lower levels. They don't reach the ability to tank until the 20's or 30's (depending on primary/secondary). Since that is what the OP appears to be focusing on, perhaps you should leave it at that.
I don't think a damage buff is what we need at all at the lower levels... well... I don't think we need one at any level, but especially not at the lower levels where our survivability is lower.
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Add a percentage chance equal to a scrapper's Critical Hit for all mobs affected by the Gauntlet effect from a Tier I or Tier II tanker attack to suffer 30% of the base damage suffered by the original target. The effect would apply to Tier I and Tier II attacks only and not be enhanceable. This would allow for more a group fighting feel to tanker combat and help tankers with soloing at all levels. More importantly it would help tankers through the lower levels where they seem to be found wanting.
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This would almost not be noticable.
A chance equal to a Scrapper's Critical Hit to deal an extra 30% on the base damage of a Tier 1 or Tier 2 attack?
Scrapper's Critical is 5% chance against Minions or below, 10% against critters above.
Jab deals 30.3 base. 30% of that is 9.09.
Your asking for a 5% chance to deal that every Jab attack?
That averages to something like only increasing jab from 30.3 to 30.7545
Whoop de frikkin' do.
Punch, same deal. The numbers and chances are just too tiny. It's pointless.
5% or 10% for Critical hit works because A) It's on every attack, not just two, or maybe even one, in the attack chain and B) Because it's 100% of the base.
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As always, numbers are subject to change based on play testing. If the damage percentage needs to go up or down so be it. Perhaps set the damage bonus to 50% for the Tier I and 30% for the Tier II.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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This is only true at the upper levels and of certain Tanker sets.
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All of the Tanker Primaries have excellent solo survivability in my experience.
The sets with less survivability, are making trade offs-for some other advantage that the sets with better survivability don't have.
In the lower levels, solo I have less problems with survivability and more with being able to inflict damage before my endurance runs out. On teams at these same levels, my issue is more or less the same.
If I was to rank the problems I have with Tankers at lower levels, running out of endurance is top of the list. Lacking damage is second. Needing to be much tougher doesn't even rate.
If they improved Tanker damage, that would help with the endurnace issues, since the attacks would become more efficient. Tankers spend the same endurance per attack as any melee AT, yet Tanker attacks deal less damage. It's not the problem of the cost of the attacks. Every AT pays the same. The problem is the Tanker must spam more of them to defeat the same mob. Damage is the problem.
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At lower levels L1-30, Tankers do not enjoy those benefits. It's one of the ultimate ironies of this game that the most challenging content in the game is at the lowest levels.
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I'll tell you straight up that if you find all content on Invincible not challenging, you can always use the challenge settings on arcs to debuff yourself, deactivate your enhancements and buff the enemies.
Me, I find Invincible so challenging with my Tankers I can't even complete most arcs on it. But not for lack of survivability.
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To the OP: I would rather see endurance scaling on powers (or part of the inherent) then a damage bump.
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As I just said, damage would help address the endurance issues.
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If I was to rank the problems I have with Tankers at lower levels, running out of endurance is top of the list. Lacking damage is second. Needing to be much tougher doesn't even rate.
If they improved Tanker damage, that would help with the endurnace issues, since the attacks would become more efficient. Tankers spend the same endurance per attack as any melee AT, yet Tanker attacks deal less damage. It's not the problem of the cost of the attacks. Every AT pays the same. The problem is the Tanker must spam more of them to defeat the same mob. Damage is the problem.
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I'm not sure how you get from needing help with endurance to going straight back to your standby about needing more damage.
If you feel endurance is the problem at the lower levels why wouldn't you push for getting end reduced for tanker attacks since there is the tradeoff that they do less damage?
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As I just said, damage would help address the endurance issues.
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As would reducing their end cost, but of course that doesn't help the same argument you've been putting out for years so why would you make that gigantic logical leap that if the end cost is too high it should be reduced.
I wouldnt mind seeing some -dam on the tier 1/2 attacks.
Bosses spank baby tanks bad. Being able to drop their damage some would go a long way to help survivability.
As you level up, since they are single attacks, it means less (unless it is an AV, which, I assume would have debuff resistance, so it would help some)
I like the concept, but I'd vote -dam. Lower level tanks need to survive esp against bosses (and its only single target), as you level up, its just a nice benefit.
50 Tanks: Invul/ss, Fire/ice/fire, Ice/em, Stone/fire
WP/Stone, dark/dark, shld/mace
50 Other: WS, SS/dark/sc brute, BS/Regen/WM scrpr, fire/fire/force blaster, rad/kin corr, mind/rad ctrl, ill/storm cntrl
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Tankers do need more survivability at the lower levels. They don't reach the ability to tank until the 20's or 30's
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So? My Controller couldn't control much pre 30's either. None of the ATs, save Brutes and Scrappers, are that hot before level 25.
That's more an issue with Training Enhancers vs DOs and SOs and how slots are distributed across levels, in my opinion.
I'm looking at long term playability. A character will only be lower level for so long. They'll be at 50 much longer, especially if the devs are going to be introducing more post 50 character progression (Universal Enhancement slots, IOs, etc).
With MA and the changes to the leveling curve, levels 1-25 isn't the long road it once was.
So yeah, for the couple hours my Tankers were pre level 25, endurance and role were a pain. But for a couple of years I've found Tanker offense at levels 40-50 to be lacking.
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So? My Controller couldn't control much pre 30's either. None of the ATs, save Brutes and Scrappers, are that hot before level 25.
That's more an issue with Training Enhancers vs DOs and SOs and how slots are distributed across levels, in my opinion.
I'm looking at long term playability. A character will only be lower level for so long. They'll be at 50 much longer, especially if the devs are going to be introducing more post 50 character progression (Universal Enhancement slots, IOs, etc).
With MA and the changes to the leveling curve, levels 1-25 isn't the long road it once was.
So yeah, for the couple hours my Tankers were pre level 25, endurance and role were a pain. But for a couple of years I've found Tanker offense at levels 40-50 to be lacking.
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If that's the way you feel you should bow out of this conversation instead of directing it towards your own agenda. Point taken, you don't think lower levels are a problem.
(Hopefully teaching J_B how to not completely derail threads and be annoying towards others ideas)
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if the end cost is too high it should be reduced.
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The cost isn't too high. Activation cost is the same for all of the ATs.
The end cost is standard. There's no reason at all to change the standard.
Changing end costs of attacks just for Tankers is the equivalent of one guy holding the lighbulb and two turning the ladder. The end cost isn't the problem variable here. It's the damage output.
More damage would improve endurance efficiency. That's a given. More damage would also improve survivability. Defeating enemies sooner before they inflict damage would greatly improve Tanker survivability. It's the long, drawn out fights in the lower levels that are the result of their lower damage output, that tire Tankers and expose them to damage longer.
If you're going to identify end use and survivability of Tankers in lower levels as being problems, then attack the cause of these issues. Both of these can be traced to spamming attacks over and over in long fights that are the direct result of Tanker damage being low.
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I wouldnt mind seeing some -dam on the tier 1/2 attacks.
Bosses spank baby tanks bad. Being able to drop their damage some would go a long way to help survivability.
As you level up, since they are single attacks, it means less (unless it is an AV, which, I assume would have debuff resistance, so it would help some)
I like the concept, but I'd vote -dam. Lower level tanks need to survive esp against bosses (and its only single target), as you level up, its just a nice benefit.
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Okay I have to be honest here, one of the major things that I am trying to accomplish with both versions of Critical Taunt is to make the tanker's inherent group fighting ability more visible and proactive. For me the damage buff was really just a means to an end.
A damage debuff is not a bad idea and would even make it possible to stretch the Critical Taunt effect out to the Tier III attacks as well.
So how does this sound?
Critical Taunt Mk III
Trying to seriously injure a tanker is an exercise in futility. Weapons will melt, break or freeze to the point of near obsolescence and hand to hand combat is painful for the tanker's assailant.
The original target, and any targets hit by the Gauntlet effect, of a tanker's Tier 1 through Tier III attacks will suffer a 5% debuff to damage output for 6 seconds. This debuff cannot be stacked for the same tanker but can be stacked with debuffs from a different tanker.
(Disclaimer: Numbers, as always are subject to modification based on play testing.)
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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As you level up, since they are single attacks, it means less (unless it is an AV, which, I assume would have debuff resistance, so it would help some)
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Note: AVs don't have any special resistance to damage debuffs. They resist damage debuffs the same way any mob would:
1) Damage Resistance: This resists damage debuffs by the same proportion it resists damage. 25% res would resist 25% of a damage debuff. (Damage debuffs debuff all types separately, so if an enemy has 25% s/l res but 0% to everything else, only the s/l portion of the debuff will be resisted.)
2) Purple Patch (I need to double check this)
So damage debuffs are actually one of the stronger methods of increasing survivability against AVs. Kins, for example, can make a huge impact due to their plethora of damage debuffs.
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Tankers do need more survivability at the lower levels. They don't reach the ability to tank until the 20's or 30's
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So? My Controller couldn't control much pre 30's either. None of the ATs, save Brutes and Scrappers, are that hot before level 25.
That's more an issue with Training Enhancers vs DOs and SOs and how slots are distributed across levels, in my opinion.
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No, that's actually just an indication that the "Damage is king" model that currently exists in the game needs to be updated so that things like holds and debuffs will be as valid for defeating mobs as damage. That kind of change would level the playing field and address many existing archetype issues.
Now back to Critical Taunt Mk III..... Anyone have any input?
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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To the OP: I would rather see endurance scaling on powers (or part of the inherent) then a damage bump.
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Can you elaborate on the endurance scaling? While I'm down with the idea of alleviating endurance costs for tankers I was trying to come up with something that was more visible or proactive during game play.
We could take a page from Champions Online and make the Tier I and Tier II attacks endurance builders.
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Specifically add a component to Gauntlet that divides endurance cost by level and adds that back to the Tanker when Gauntlet hits (the number junkies can give you the exact equation if it comes down to that) so that the higher the level, the less endurance is returned until at a certain point you either cut it off entirely or through equation come to a zero-sum gain. I would include this on all attacks, not just the T1 and T2 attacks (although formula-wise it would only really matter for the T1-3 attacks realistically speaking).
Mind you we're all trying to come at multiple issues here from a single solution which I don't think can ultimately work correctly.
Low Level Tanker Issues:
1) Sub par damage.
2) Grossly inefficient endurance usage.
3) Grossly underprotected.
Of course a simple one stop shop solution would be to remove TOs and DOs from the game and start SO's from L1. With IOs and level proliferation, they almost have no place in the current game as it stands other then to confuse the true new player.
I can agree with getting rid of TO enhancements. I haven't slotted a TO since August '04.
I also like where you're going with adding an endurance modifier to Gauntlet. My only issue is that it takes us back into the realm of a behind the scenes effect and I'd really like to see something that makes Gauntlet more visible or tactile.
As I mentioned before I think that allowing debuffs and controls to be as effective as damage in defeating mobs would help alot of outstanding issues. For example, if a WP/Mace tanker could stack his damage with the stun delivered by his attacks then he would defeat the mob that much quicker which would translate to better DPE and survivability.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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My Controller couldn't control much pre 30's either.
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Hmmmm
What game are you playing?
Cant control before 32? Ice, Fire, Stone, Plant, and Illusion all get pets at 32. Explain to me how Fire Imps, Fly Trap, Phantasm changed you to being able to control all of the sudden when your CONTROL powers didnt
Fire Cage, Char, Fire Cages, Flashfire, Cinders all happen at level 18 and you cant control until after 30+?
I'm telling ya man, we weren't all meant to smoke pot. Sometimes it really can just make ya say dumb [censored] (see my quote)
Perhaps he meant solo instead? I know my Earth/Storm took forever to solo before 32. My Grav/Kin is okay on his own and has been from the start, but I got my Earth/Storm to 32 by teaming.
Never can tell with Johnny, but it's a possibility.
At any rate, the only ATs that are really smooth prior to SOs are Blasters, Scrappers, and Kheldians (to some extent... Nova form is pretty easy to run with for a good while). Even then, they open up a lot in the 20s and with SOs if you're slotting things right. Defenders, Controllers, and Tankers usually take a bit to really run as they will for most of the game. Some powerset exceptions to this, of course, but that's the way I've found it, mostly.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Add a percentage chance equal to a scrapper's Critical Hit for all mobs affected by the Gauntlet effect from a Tier I or Tier II tanker attack to suffer 30% of the base damage suffered by the original target. The effect would apply to Tier I and Tier II attacks only and not be enhanceable. This would allow for more a group fighting feel to tanker combat and help tankers with soloing at all levels. More importantly it would help tankers through the lower levels where they seem to be found wanting.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat