SD/DM Scranker Build, looking for ideas/comments
By
Jebe_the_Pirate,
Posted on: 2009-07-04 20:10 in Tankers
You didn't take Shadow Maul?!
You going for a single target build?
Yeah, no Shadow Maul. A few reasons:
1) Feels really exploity to me and I don't enjoy the play style required to use it well. I don't really have room for hover in the build (note I didn't even take Combat Jumping) so I'm stuck with running around trying to maximize Shadow Mauls which is just going to get in the way of everything else I want to do. Plus I don't want my whole game to be running around to maximize what feels like an exploit to me.
2) Subpar single-target damage. Not only does Shadow Maul require 2 targets just to equal Smites damage, but it would also slow down my attack chain meaning fewer Siphons and MGs. I don't really have room to spare for both Shadow Maul and Smite. If I have to choose between AE and single-target I'm going to choose single-target as I already have great AE options with a sub-30s Shield Charge, etc.
I was curious so I did a single-target DPS comparison. The following numbers are based off of base damage from City of Data:
Smite->Siphon->Grasp:
Total Damage: 58.63 + 87.2 + 122.77 = 268.6
Animation Time: .97 + 1.93 + 2.07 = 4.97
DPS: 54.04 damage/second
Smite->Siphon->Grasp:
Total Damage: 87.92 + 87.2 + 122.77 = 297.82
Animation Time: 3.07 + 1.93 + 2.07 = 7.07
DPS: 42.12 damage/second
A 28% damage boost. When it comes to something like trying to break an AV's regen that's going to be pretty darn significant.
I was curious how many targets you'd have to hit with Shadow Maul to get equal DPS (warning, algebra to follow).
(x * 87.92 + 209.97) damage / 7.07 seconds = 54.04 dps
->
x*87.92 + 185.53 damage = 382.06 damage
->
x*87.92 = 195.53 damage
->
x = 2.24
So I've got to hit 2.24 targets on average, with Shadow Maul, just to break even. Without lots of strafing there's no way I'd hit that on average and without hover I'do lose a bit of time in my attack chain to set up the strafe. If lost even a second on my attack chain that's going to push the break-even to 2.85 targets. So basically I think it's pretty close and ultimately not worth it to me. If I can get a similar DPS boost to either single-target or groups then I'll take the single-target boost due to the fact that I'm more worried about single-target regen. The only case I can see really wanting Shadow Maul is solo'ing AE boss spawns or something where I don't care about gathering aggro and just want to down a group as quickly as possible.
Also, this makes me wonder if you can really justify Sands of Mu given that it's unenhanceable. What are the exact stats on it (I don't have it)?
Let me know if I messed up any of the math or left anything out. I like doing this sort of mathematical analysis but I'm still figuring out all the strange little quirks of CoH's combat engine.
I hit 3-5 on average and yes you'd have to actually move to do it 
Videos in this thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....;gonew=1#UNREAD
I'm not sure where you got "exploitiing" from but each to their own.
Yeah, saw the videos. At 4 average targets, with a 1s delay to move to setup the Shadow Maul, you're looking at a 28% increase in DPS on groups. So basically you've got a 29% DPS increase versus single targets versus a 28% DPS increase against groups. It's up to you of course but I think the single-target damage boost is a no-brainer.
Also I feel like it would cost me a lot as a tank to be constantly maneuvering for SM damage not to mention that I hate the 3s animation delay where I can't react to anything.
As for "exploity" I think it's pretty obvious that strafing to maximize cones isn't intended behavior. If you can't see that I think you're probably trying not to look very hard. I mean go for it, ultimately it's up to the devs, not me or you, to decide something that like. For me though it just breaks the gameplay experience a bit to do something so obviously non-intuitive and wacky. I'm more powergamer than RP'er but that doesn't mean I don't care at all about immersion.
You don't want to use a Smite SL MG attack chain if you're going for DPS. Smite is your highest DPA thanks to its quickest animation, working well with procs.
Animation times also need to be adjusted for server ticks. The formula is (iirc) ROUNDUP(Animationtime/0.132)+1)*0.132.
I see you mentioning AVs, so I'd swap DC for CP. CP is more efficient, requires less slots and doesn't kill your SD/AaO fodder.
(It is possible to solo some AVs without SD/AaO fodder, but the DPS drops from 170ish to 120ish, making the fight long and sluggish.)
Slotting Active Defense with HOs is also a must, without good DDR you'll have a hard time taking on high defense debuffing mobs/AVs (think Cimerorans or Silver Mantis) without external help.
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Yeah, saw the videos. At 4 average targets, with a 1s delay to move to setup the Shadow Maul, you're looking at a 28% increase in DPS on groups. So basically you've got a 29% DPS increase versus single targets versus a 28% DPS increase against groups. It's up to you of course but I think the single-target damage boost is a no-brainer.
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Forgetting the play-by-math criteria you're postulating here for a moment, this isn't an either-or scenario. You have both Shadow Maul and Smite ... switch from AOE to ST based damage. That's the beauty of DM that most people miss ... and it works especially well when combined with Shields.
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Also I feel like it would cost me a lot as a tank to be constantly maneuvering for SM damage not to mention that I hate the 3s animation delay where I can't react to anything.
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When fighting in AOE mode you're right ... it's harder to focus on crowd control in the same manner as a more conventional Tanker might. On the other hand, it's up to you as the player to recognize when you need to be more on the ball, and make that mental switch (the difference between being a good Tanker and being a taunt-bot basically).
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As for "exploity" I think it's pretty obvious that strafing to maximize cones isn't intended behavior. If you can't see that I think you're probably trying not to look very hard. I mean go for it, ultimately it's up to the devs, not me or you, to decide something that like. For me though it just breaks the gameplay experience a bit to do something so obviously non-intuitive and wacky. I'm more powergamer than RP'er but that doesn't mean I don't care at all about immersion.
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I'm not sure how to respond to this without sounding really sarcastic but here goes ...
I would have agreed prior to the cone fix, with hitting mobs that were easily 20ft out of range. However since the devs have addressed that, one can only assume that the current state of Shadow Maul (and cones in general) is what the devs intended.
From an immersion stand point, I'm not sure what kind of fights you've been involved in personally, or comic books you've read, or fights you've seen on TV, but in virtually none of those have I witnessed someone standing perfectly still while doing the fighting. If anything, having to move around to maximize your damage *adds* to the immersion factor for me.
If you don't want to use Shadow Maul, that's cool and I respect (if not totally understand) your decision but kind of in the same way I respect a Tanker's decision not to use Stamina (I think they're foolish for not but in the end, it's your $15/mo).
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Animation times also need to be adjusted for server ticks. The formula is (iirc) ROUNDUP(Animationtime/0.132)+1)*0.132.
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Ahh! Another obscure gotcha. I found a post comparing DPA's with the adjusted animation time. It looks like Smite->Siphon->MG and Smite->Siphon->Smite->MG have almost identical DPA's. The difference then would be a higher HPA (heal per animation time) with the former but a lower DPE.
Of course I couldn't figure out some of the numbers used to calculate on that. They're using City of Data's "damage" number (i.e. 1.32 for Smite and 1.96 for Siphon). I'm not sure what that is. If I just use the raw damage numbers that City of Data has, it actually turns out that Smite->Siphon->MG is a bit better on damage as well.
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I see you mentioning AVs, so I'd swap DC for CP. CP is more efficient, requires less slots and doesn't kill your SD/AaO fodder.
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Makes sense. I think I have to try it. On the flip side CP can only ever reduce endurance loss whereas Dark Consumption can completely fill you up. Of course if I have no enemies I"m not going to be getting a lot from DC. Also I'd lose those yummy Obliteration bonuses but I think I could get some of them back.
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Slotting Active Defense with HOs is also a must, without good DDR you'll have a hard time taking on high defense debuffing mobs/AVs (think Cimerorans or Silver Mantis) without external help.
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Isn't this also a known exploit?
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Forgetting the play-by-math criteria you're postulating here for a moment, this isn't an either-or scenario. You have both Shadow Maul and Smite ... switch from AOE to ST based damage. That's the beauty of DM that most people miss ... and it works especially well when combined with Shields.
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Along with my other reasons for not liking Shadow Maul, I don't really have room in the build for both powers unless I change something.
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As for "exploity" I think it's pretty obvious that ...
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Seriously? It sounds to me like your argument is really going around in circles with justifications.
It's like you're saying, "see it makes more sense to move around during combat therefore it makes sense if my combat move is to juggle 5 balls while I hit people". I mean, sure, it makes sense that you'd move around around however it doesn't make sense that this would increases a cone's area of effect.
I do move around to try and maximize AaO, Soul Drain and (if grouped) to maximize aggro. Moving around more frenetically just to mazimize a cone damage when it's pretty clear that this isn't "as intended"? That's taking it a bit far.
I'd say that instead of an implicit acceptance of your tactic, the recent change is just one that fixed half the problem but missed the other half. It gives a clear indication that they thought another similar use of cone attacks wasn't "as intended".
Anyway, whatever, I just don't see it. It still feels super exploity to me and isn't really how I want to play. If SM offered something that didn't require me to work hard to abuse a hole in the system then I'd use it.
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I respect a Tanker's decision not to use Stamina (I think they're foolish for not but in the end, it's your $15/mo).
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My shield/dm doesn't use stamina! I've got Dark Consumption, a miracle +recov, several other set bonuses, and OwTS when I need end! So far it's worked swimmingly!
(But I also had to have a pre-respec build and a respec build)
Re: HOs in AD
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Isn't this also a known exploit?
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Arguably, yes.
Then again, lot of other stuff is (or becomes so, retroactively). If it's a moral dilemma, only you can make the call, but from a pragmatic point of view at worst you lose a few millions if they fix it, after months during which you exploited it to be much stronger ; at best, you're much stronger, forever.
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Re: HOs in AD
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Isn't this also a known exploit?
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Arguably, yes.
Then again, lot of other stuff is (or becomes so, retroactively). If it's a moral dilemma, only you can make the call, but from a pragmatic point of view at worst you lose a few millions if they fix it, after months during which you exploited it to be much stronger ; at best, you're much stronger, forever.
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I'm not sure if it's an exploit. Castle has been toying with enhanceable, but unslottable, power aspects a little. For example, Mind Link can't be slotted for recharge, but it accepts multi-enhancers to reduce its recharge (which is WAI).
Now, in this case it could be unintentional, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it so long as you accept it may change at a later date.
I was basing my comments on a quote I found from Castle here:
"Slotting enhancements into powers they were not meant to be slottable in is an 'exploit.' We've pretty much firmly established that. The question isn't if something being abused in this manner will be changed, it's a matter of when. "
Of course when I follow the link to that it doesn't show up so I'm guessing this was said a long time ago? Anyway I'll think about it, it still seems a bit cheap to me but a lot less so than strafing SM.
Shield seems so strong with this, though. Without HOs in AD, it was already borderline OPed. With it, it's almost as good as SR on every point while having more HP, damage and resistances, and better mez protection. Admittedly, it lacks Quickness, but it's a small price to pay for all these things.
Surely, this can't be intended. Well, at least I hope so, because I'd like to believe the devs know how to balance their game.
I'm of the opinion that it's probably left as it is just because it only affects high end builds for the minority of players who bother enough to get information about this kind of thing, so they just don't care.
That being said, I completely agree that it's not something you should worry about. It's not exactly the same thing as going from level 1 to 50 in 1 hour or oneshotting Hamidon. 
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Anyway I'll think about it, it still seems a bit cheap to me but a lot less so than strafing SM.
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In the end, it's all a matter of perspective.
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I was basing my comments on a quote I found from Castle here:
"Slotting enhancements into powers they were not meant to be slottable in is an 'exploit.' We've pretty much firmly established that. The question isn't if something being abused in this manner will be changed, it's a matter of when. "
Of course when I follow the link to that it doesn't show up so I'm guessing this was said a long time ago? Anyway I'll think about it, it still seems a bit cheap to me but a lot less so than strafing SM.
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StGabe: The quote being referenced there is using HOs in a manner opposite of their intent. In other words, you could slot a Def Buff HO into a Def Debuff power and vice versa. In this case, it's using a Def Buff HO to buff a normally unenhanceable aspect - but it's still normally enhanced through Def Buff enhancers. Two completely different things.
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Shield seems so strong with this, though. Without HOs in AD, it was already borderline OPed. With it, it's almost as good as SR on every point while having more HP, damage and resistances, and better mez protection. Admittedly, it lacks Quickness, but it's a small price to pay for all these things.
Surely, this can't be intended. Well, at least I hope so, because I'd like to believe the devs know how to balance their game.
I'm of the opinion that it's probably left as it is just because it only affects high end builds for the minority of players who bother enough to get information about this kind of thing, so they just don't care.
That being said, I completely agree that it's not something you should worry about. It's not exactly the same thing as going from level 1 to 50 in 1 hour or oneshotting Hamidon.
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Nihilli: Well, it's a lot harder to soft cap a Shield user than SR. It's what, ~8% less def than SR? That's 6-9 extra 3% positional def bonuses (for a Scrapper, since SR isn't available for Tanks). Still, I understand what you're saying. I wasn't making any judgements on whether it was a good or a bad thing that AD could be enhanced in this way, just that I don't consider it to be an exploit.
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I was basing my comments on a quote I found from Castle here:
"Slotting enhancements into powers they were not meant to be slottable in is an 'exploit.' We've pretty much firmly established that. The question isn't if something being abused in this manner will be changed, it's a matter of when. "
Of course when I follow the link to that it doesn't show up so I'm guessing this was said a long time ago? Anyway I'll think about it, it still seems a bit cheap to me but a lot less so than strafing SM.
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Well if it doesn't feel "right" to you then yeah, don't use it.
Some other points with your build:
1) It's over the top for +recovery. You just don't need that much with Dark Consumption. Even slinging around the quick single target attacks only you won't make a dent in your end bar past need much more then 2.2/s. I'd work on +health over the amount of +recovery you have (SD/DM's health tends to yo-yo a lot in extreme tanking).
2) It's a really expensive build that requires all those LotG: +Recharge (combined with the rest of the recharge buffs) for Siphon Life (your bread and butter) to be up at a reasonable rate. It's a good build if you have that stuff in place (or are rich) but without it, you'd probably want to reconsider re-slotting SL with more recharge.
3) If you are going to actually have that much +recharge (not to mention recovery) you may want to throw rechRedux in your Active Defense, so you can triple stack it which with Grant Cover and Battle Agility will cap your Resist Defense Debuff (especially if you're not going the Hamio route with Battle Agility and AD). This is really the Achilles Heal of Shields (defense debuff) more then anything else (besides the random number generator).
Here's a build I've been working on. I've gone through a few iterations and there are still a few things I'm thinking of changing but I'd like to get some comments, ideas from you guys. After finding out that I didn't know the *very important* "Rule of 5" I thought I'd see if there was anything else that I was obviously missing.
Highlights of the build:
<ul type="square"> [*] No purples. About 600m-700m cost from what I can see in the consignment house.[*] Defense soft-capped with a little bit of room to spare on melee.[*] 44% s/l resist, 21% rest. 90%/44% with One With the Shield up.[*] 70% recharge boost, about as high as I think is possible without crippling other parts of the build or using purples.[*] 27s shield charge, 36s soul drain (almost permanent), 132s hasten (almost permanent), 55s Dark Consumption.[*] Can do smite->siphon->MG attack chain without delays between attacks (with Hasten up).[*] Decent attack boosts from set bonuses: 59% accuracy, 9% damage.[*] Ok recovery boosts from set bonuses: +14% recovery, 1.8% max end.[/list]
I'm most worried about endurance but I hope that with Dark Consumption coming up every minute I should be ok.
And here's the build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Fynn: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection <ul type="square">[*] (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense[*] (3) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance[*] (3) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge[*] (5) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed[*] (5) Impervium Armor - Resistance[*] (7) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Endurance[/list]Level 1: Shadow Punch <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 2: True Grit <ul type="square">[*] (A) Impervium Armor - Resistance[*] (7) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Endurance[*] (9) Miracle - Heal[*] (9) Miracle - Heal/Endurance[*] (11) Miracle - Heal/Recharge[*] (11) Miracle - +Recovery[/list]Level 4: Battle Agility <ul type="square">[*] (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense[*] (13) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed[*] (13) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance[*] (15) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge[/list]Level 6: Active Defense <ul type="square">[*] (A) Endurance Reduction IO[*] (15) Endurance Reduction IO[/list]Level 8: Against All Odds <ul type="square">[*] (A) Endurance Reduction IO[/list]Level 10: Smite <ul type="square">[*] (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage[*] (17) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance[*] (17) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge[*] (19) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge[*] (19) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance[*] (21) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge[/list]Level 12: Hurdle <ul type="square">[*] (A) Jumping IO[/list]Level 14: Taunt <ul type="square">[*] (A) Mocking Beratement - Taunt[*] (21) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Recharge[*] (23) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Recharge/Range[*] (23) Mocking Beratement - Accuracy/Recharge[*] (25) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Range[*] (25) Mocking Beratement - Recharge[/list]Level 16: Siphon Life <ul type="square">[*] (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage[*] (27) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage[*] (27) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge[*] (29) Miracle - Heal/Endurance[*] (29) Miracle - Heal/Recharge[*] (31) Miracle - Heal[/list]Level 18: Health <ul type="square">[*] (A) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance[*] (46) Numina's Convalescence - Endurance/Recharge[*] (46) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge[*] (46) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance/Recharge[*] (50) Numina's Convalescence - Heal[*] (50) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery[/list]Level 20: Stamina <ul type="square">[*] (A) Endurance Modification IO[*] (31) Endurance Modification IO[*] (31) Endurance Modification IO[/list]Level 22: Hasten <ul type="square">[*] (A) Recharge Reduction IO[*] (33) Recharge Reduction IO[*] (33) Recharge Reduction IO[/list]Level 24: Phalanx Fighting <ul type="square">[*] (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed[/list]Level 26: Shield Charge <ul type="square">[*] (A) Obliteration - Damage[*] (33) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge[*] (34) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge[*] (34) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge[*] (34) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge[*] (36) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage[/list]Level 28: Soul Drain <ul type="square">[*] (A) Obliteration - Damage[*] (36) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge[*] (36) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage[*] (37) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge[*] (37) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge[*] (37) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge[/list]Level 30: Super Speed <ul type="square">[*] (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range[*] (39) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance[*] (39) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)[/list]Level 32: One with the Shield <ul type="square">[*] (A) Aegis - Resistance[*] (42) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance[*] (50) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge[/list]Level 35: Dark Consumption <ul type="square">[*] (A) Obliteration - Damage[*] (39) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge[*] (40) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge[*] (40) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge[*] (40) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge[/list]Level 38: Midnight Grasp <ul type="square">[*] (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage[*] (42) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance[*] (42) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge[*] (43) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge[*] (43) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance[*] (43) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge[/list]Level 41: Boxing <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 44: Tough <ul type="square">[*] (A) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Endurance[*] (45) Impervium Armor - Resistance[*] (45) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/Endurance[*] (45) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%[/list]Level 47: Weave <ul type="square">[*] (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge[*] (48) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance[*] (48) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance[*] (48) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed[/list]Level 49: Grant Cover <ul type="square">[*] (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed[/list]------------
Level 1: Brawl <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 1: Sprint <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 2: Rest <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 1: Gauntlet
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]9% DamageBuff(Smashing)[*]9% DamageBuff(Lethal)[*]9% DamageBuff(Fire)[*]9% DamageBuff(Cold)[*]9% DamageBuff(Energy)[*]9% DamageBuff(Negative)[*]9% DamageBuff(Toxic)[*]9% DamageBuff(Psionic)[*]3% Defense(Psionic)[*]11.8% Defense(Melee)[*]9.88% Defense(Ranged)[*]9.25% Defense(AoE)[*]1.8% Max End[*]70% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*]59% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]11% Enhancement(Heal)[*]210.8 HP (11.3%) HitPoints[*]Knockback (Mag -4)[*]Knockup (Mag -4)[*]MezResist(Held) 6.05%[*]MezResist(Immobilize) 6.6%[*]MezResist(Stun) 6.6%[*]14% (0.23 End/sec) Recovery[*]42% (3.29 HP/sec) Regeneration[*]5% Resistance(Psionic)[*]5% RunSpeed[/list]