SD/DM: Amazing


Brimstone Bruce

 

Posted

Here's my L50 SD/DM Tanker build (per request). He was main tanking AE Boss farms (go go gnomes) in his 30s and was out performing Scrappers/Blasters (by and large) in DPS by his 40s. Fairly cheap build to boot

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Ghost of Kruunch: Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx(A), GftotA-Def(3), DefBuff-I(3), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(11), ImpArm-ResDam(34), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(34)
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(40), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(48), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 2: Smite -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(13), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(13), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37)
Level 4: Battle Agility -- EndRdx-I(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(5), GftotA-Def(5), DefBuff-I(11)
Level 6: Shadow Maul -- C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(A), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(7), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(7), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23)
Level 8: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Hover -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(43)
Level 12: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 14: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15)
Level 16: Siphon Life -- C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Nictus-Heal/HP/Regen/Rchg(19), Nictus-Acc/Heal(23)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(50)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(21), P'Shift-End%(46)
Level 22: Phalanx Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(A), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(27), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 28: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), ImpArm-ResDam(31), ResDam-I(31)
Level 32: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(33), GftotA-Def(33), DefBuff-I(33)
Level 35: Dark Consumption -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(36), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Oblit-%Dam(37)
Level 38: Soul Drain -- C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(A), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(39), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(39), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(40)
Level 41: True Grit -- ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(A), ImpArm-ResDam(42), ResDam-I(42), Heal-I(42), Heal-I(43), Heal-I(43)
Level 44: Midnight Grasp -- C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(46), DampS-Rchg/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Fly -- Flight-I(A)
Level 49: One with the Shield -- Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(50), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]3% DamageBuff(Smashing)[*]3% DamageBuff(Lethal)[*]3% DamageBuff(Fire)[*]3% DamageBuff(Cold)[*]3% DamageBuff(Energy)[*]3% DamageBuff(Negative)[*]3% DamageBuff(Toxic)[*]3% DamageBuff(Psionic)[*]4.88% Defense(Smashing)[*]4.88% Defense(Lethal)[*]3% Defense(Fire)[*]3% Defense(Cold)[*]3% Defense(Energy)[*]3% Defense(Negative)[*]3% Defense(Psionic)[*]6.75% Defense(Melee)[*]3% Defense(Ranged)[*]3% Defense(AoE)[*]20% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*]37% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]140.6 HP (7.5%) HitPoints[*]MezResist(Immobilize) 8.8%[*]MezResist(Sleep) 4.95%[*]MezResist(Stun) 6.05%[*]18% (0.3 End/sec) Recovery[*]1.89% Resistance(Fire)[*]1.89% Resistance(Cold)[/list]------------
[u]Set Bonuses:[u]
[u]Gift of the Ancients[u]
(Deflection)<ul type="square">[*] 2% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery[/list][u]Impervium Armor[u]
(Deflection)<ul type="square">[*] 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery[/list][u]Steadfast Protection[u]
(Deflection)<ul type="square">[*] 3% Defense(All)[/list][u]Crushing Impact[u]
(Shadow Punch)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Immobilize) 2.2%[*] 21.1 HP (1.13%) HitPoints[*] 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Crushing Impact[u]
(Smite)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Immobilize) 2.2%[*] 21.1 HP (1.13%) HitPoints[*] 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Gift of the Ancients[u]
(Battle Agility)<ul type="square">[*] 2% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery[/list][u]Cleaving Blow[u]
(Shadow Maul)<ul type="square">[*] 1% (0.02 End/sec) Recovery[/list][u]Multi Strike[u]
(Shadow Maul)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Sleep) 1.65%[*] 0.95% Resistance(Fire,Cold)[/list][u]Crushing Impact[u]
(Siphon Life)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Immobilize) 2.2%[*] 21.1 HP (1.13%) HitPoints[*] 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[/list][u]Touch of the Nictus[u]
(Siphon Life)<ul type="square">[*] 35.1 HP (1.88%) HitPoints[/list][u]Cleaving Blow[u]
(Shield Charge)<ul type="square">[*] 1% (0.02 End/sec) Recovery[/list][u]Multi Strike[u]
(Shield Charge)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Sleep) 1.65%[/list][u]Obliteration[u]
(Shield Charge)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Stun) 2.2%[/list][u]Impervium Armor[u]
(Tough)<ul type="square">[*] 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery[/list][u]Gift of the Ancients[u]
(Weave)<ul type="square">[*] 2% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery[/list][u]Obliteration[u]
(Dark Consumption)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Stun) 2.2%[*] 3% DamageBuff(All)[*] 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*] 3.75% Defense(Melee), 1.88% Defense(Lethal), 1.88% Defense(Smashing)[/list][u]Cleaving Blow[u]
(Soul Drain)<ul type="square">[*] 1% (0.02 End/sec) Recovery[/list][u]Multi Strike[u]
(Soul Drain)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Sleep) 1.65%[*] 0.95% Resistance(Fire,Cold)[*] MezResist(Stun) 1.65%[/list][u]Impervium Armor[u]
(True Grit)<ul type="square">[*] 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery[/list][u]Crushing Impact[u]
(Midnight Grasp)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Immobilize) 2.2%[*] 21.1 HP (1.13%) HitPoints[*] 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Efficacy Adaptor[u]
(One with the Shield)<ul type="square">[*] 21.1 HP (1.13%) HitPoints[*] 1.5% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery[/list]


Note: Haven't tried him on TFs yet. Amazing farmer however. In the next patch, cones are supposed to be "fixed" so Shadow Maul / Sands of Mu might not be the amazing AOEs they are now. Anybody have helpful suggestions (especially on Siphon Life)?


 

Posted

I already see some things I would do much different than what you built. I'll let you know in game.


 

Posted

I was thinking of dropping Smite and slotting Boxing and picking up Taunt.

Also keep in mind that the slotting is the cheap version


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
I already see some things I would do much different than what you built. I'll let you know in game.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's no fun. Post them here for the rest of us who are interested in SD/DM builds.

P.S. don't you need defense debuff resist from Grant Cover?


 

Posted

That's a good question ... not too many defense debuffs that I've run across but I'm really curious as to how much Grant Cover would help with that.

Right now my build is right up against the soft cap with about 5% over in Melee. I was *hoping* that my toHitDebuff would offset any debuffs laid down on me.


 

Posted

Not that you asked, and not that I'm trying to compare units. I just figured it would be a good place to draw notes from and get tips.

This is my attempt at an AV soloer. So far, the only AV I've tried was Chimera. I got him to about 1/4 health left before the minions were all gone and I tried to round up more. That was after about 20 mins and he regained too much health by the time I found some more. My health was never an issue, though. And next time I try an AV, I may find one without Caltrop crazy foes slowing down my herding abilities.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Land Down Umbral: Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(3), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(3), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(13), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(13), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(7), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(9), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 4: True Grit -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(5), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(7), Mrcl-Heal(17), Heal-I(19), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(31)
Level 6: Smite -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(19), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(21), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23)
Level 8: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(11)
Level 12: Phalanx Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(23), LkGmblr-Rchg+(25)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 16: Active Defense -- HO:Membr(A)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(29), RgnTis-Regen+(31), Numna-Heal(31), Heal-I(39)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(25), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(29), P'Shift-EndMod(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(33)
Level 22: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 24: Siphon Life -- HO:Nucle(A), HO:Nucle(36), Numna-Heal/Rchg(36), HO:Golgi(36), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(37), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(42)
Level 26: Taunt -- Zinger-Dam%(A), Zinger-Acc/Rchg(37), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(39), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(39)
Level 28: Soul Drain -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(40), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(40), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Erad-%Dam(42)
Level 30: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Shield Charge -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), KinCrsh-Rechg/EndRdx(46)
Level 35: Dark Consumption -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(37), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(43), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(43), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(43), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(45)
Level 38: Grant Cover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 41: Midnight Grasp -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(45), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 44: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(48), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(48)
Level 47: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(50), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]8% DamageBuff(Smashing)[*]8% DamageBuff(Lethal)[*]8% DamageBuff(Fire)[*]8% DamageBuff(Cold)[*]8% DamageBuff(Energy)[*]8% DamageBuff(Negative)[*]8% DamageBuff(Toxic)[*]8% DamageBuff(Psionic)[*]6.75% Defense(Smashing)[*]6.75% Defense(Lethal)[*]4.56% Defense(Fire)[*]4.56% Defense(Cold)[*]6.13% Defense(Energy)[*]6.13% Defense(Negative)[*]3% Defense(Psionic)[*]4.88% Defense(Melee)[*]4.56% Defense(Ranged)[*]6.13% Defense(AoE)[*]1.8% Max End[*]62.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*]48% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]5% FlySpeed[*]281.1 HP (15%) HitPoints[*]5% JumpHeight[*]5% JumpSpeed[*]MezResist(Immobilize) 12.7%[*]MezResist(Stun) 2.2%[*]MezResist(Terrorized) 2.75%[*]10% (0.17 End/sec) Recovery[*]62% (4.85 HP/sec) Regeneration[*]5% RunSpeed[*]2% XPDebtProtection[/list]


@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
got him to about 1/4 health left before the minions were all gone and I tried to round up more

[/ QUOTE ]

&gt;.&gt; death by Soul Drain?


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
got him to about 1/4 health left before the minions were all gone and I tried to round up more

[/ QUOTE ]

&gt;.&gt; death by Soul Drain?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. . . yeah. And the occaisional Dark Consumption.


@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

Rylas your build is kind of where I'm headed (a lot more expensive then mine is).

Question: How much does Grant Cover help with Defense Debuffs?


 

Posted

17% resist defense debuffs. It's not the greatest thing in the world but every bit helps.


 

Posted

Well I know what the numbers are ... what do they translate to in the game (i.e. how well does it actually work?).

I'd rather pick up Taunt or get into Pyre if I'm going to rework powers.


 

Posted

How are you outdamaging scrappers and blasters? Just curious... I might even consider rolling a tanker again some day if this is actually true, but in my experience, it generally wouldn't be.

Reasoning being DM is a single target set. SC isn't up that often. SD, while nice, isn't going to help DM compete with FS or LR or WS or FSC for damage based AT's in a crowd of opponents.

Anyhoo. I'm just curious. SD/DM is a tremendously powerful combo and does do insane damage - to one target at a time if you have a crowd to SD from, or to a small crowd every now and then with SC. Throw in the Tanker AT's lower damage mods and cap, and I'm scratching my head on "outdamaging blasters and scrappers" as a generalization. If you mean you were outdamaging other lowbies you teamed with, that makes more sense...


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
How are you outdamaging scrappers and blasters? Just curious... I might even consider rolling a tanker again some day if this is actually true, but in my experience, it generally wouldn't be.

Reasoning being DM is a single target set. SC isn't up that often. SD, while nice, isn't going to help DM compete with FS or LR or WS or FSC for damage based AT's in a crowd of opponents.

Anyhoo. I'm just curious. SD/DM is a tremendously powerful combo and does do insane damage - to one target at a time if you have a crowd to SD from, or to a small crowd every now and then with SC. Throw in the Tanker AT's lower damage mods and cap, and I'm scratching my head on "outdamaging blasters and scrappers" as a generalization. If you mean you were outdamaging other lowbies you teamed with, that makes more sense...

[/ QUOTE ]

DM being a single target set is a really big misconception .. it's actually probably the best AOE set out of the Tanker secondaries for straight damage (yes, even more so then Fire).

DM has two primary PBAOEs on fairly longish cool downs in Dark Consumption and Soul Drain. Additionally it has a narrow cone in Shadow Maul which is really DM's bread and butter damage wise. Shadow Maul when used with Hover or used while circle strafing will routinely hit multiple mobs. In packs of 15-20, I can consistantly hit 10+ mobs with Shadow Maul (and Sands of Mu which I use prolifically in this setup). Jebe the Pirate can attest to how wide an impact my cones have.

So my opener is like this ... Soul Drain, Shield Charge, Dark Consumption, Shadow Maul and Sands of Mu.

That combo will drop pretty much +4 LTs and below (maybe with an extra Shadow Maul thrown in at the end against something like the Freakshow). That combo also puts +2 bosses at just about half health.

From there I just continually Shadow Maul and Sands of Mu, using Siphon Life and Midnight Grasp (both superior damage rated attacks) to clean up the stragglers.

That routine is basically up every pack when I'm fighting bosses (which if you do your math means that it's taking me about 90-120 seconds to solo down 20 +2 bosses). Every other pack when I'm fighting LTs or lower.

Now there are some Tanker builds that can out damage this build (Fire/Fire/Pyre for instance) *but* they don't have the survivability that my SD/DM does. It really is the best cross between toughness and damage dealing that I've come across in the Tanker sets.

Finally, I'm comparing the damage (subjectively of course) to the Scrappers I play with (of various makes and models) and my own Scrappers. This build doesn't out damage *every* Scrapper combo (of course) and really shouldn't out damage a really well built Scrapper, however more times then not (and especially against more single target oriented Scrappers) I pull away from Scrappers over the course of most boss fights. My own Spines/Fire Scrapper easily does more damage then this Tanker for instance .... when he can stay upright

Note: In Issue 15, they are "fixing" cones. Which cones and what the fix is I don't know, but my guess would be that they will limit all cones to 5 target max. That will definitely put a crimp in this build, but not by a huge factor. If the fix is some form of geometry patch/serverside prediction improvement, and Shadow Maul and Sands of Mu start hitting the 2-3 mobs max that most people are used to, then the damage capability of this build will be severely reduced.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Shadow Maul when used with Hover or used while circle strafing will routinely hit multiple mobs. In packs of 15-20, I can consistantly hit 10+ mobs with Shadow Maul (and Sands of Mu which I use prolifically in this setup). Jebe the Pirate can attest to how wide an impact my cones have.

[/ QUOTE ]

City of Data says Shadow Maul can only hit a maximum of five targets. Did this change recently? With all the numbers Shadow Maul creates, is it possible that it's actually hitting fewer targets than it appears?


 

Posted

Outdamaging scrappers and blasters is subjective because there are times I just want to pull my hair out. Some people just refuse to adapt. Where it lies is in Kruunch's aggressive tanking method which at first I had a hard time adjusting to. Having done so, it's really impressive to see and he makes great use of the cones. Applying this approach to other toons--scrappers, defenders, tankers (I even thought of respecing out of DA/DM but they're fixing the cone issue in I15) has improved my dps as a much greater quantity of mobs are caught in the cones.


Edit: (in response to Electronite)...
I first spotted this on my BS/Shield scrapper and my dk defender after I respeced both to hover+fly. Kruunch discovered this independently while combining def bonuses with hover+CJ. However I did not know the extent to which it stretched SM (and sands) until I was on my defender and saw Kruunch hit no less than 8 mobs. One thing I would like to point out is although the range is stretched, the angle is not. You still have the same narrow cone.


 

Posted

A few mistakes in your comments.

On your near-soft-cap. Mids' is set so that Phalanx Fighting gives you the defense bonus of 1 neighbor, so if you're soloing your defense is about 3.75% less (at each position) than Mids' says.

[ QUOTE ]
Shadow Maul when used with Hover or used while circle strafing will routinely hit multiple mobs. In packs of 15-20, I can consistantly hit 10+ mobs with Shadow Maul (and Sands of Mu which I use prolifically in this setup).

[/ QUOTE ]

Shadow Maul never hits more than five. It can include more than five in its cone, making the odds very low that you miss enough to not hit the cap of five, but once you hit five it doesn't damage any more targets. I think you might be mistaking the smashing/negative damage readouts for 10 targets. (I do the same strafing thing constantly on my DM/Shield scrapper.)

I think if you go outside AE, where defense debuffs are more prevalent, you'll maybe find that Grant Cover is somewhat helpful. As a scrapper (with obviously lesser def/res/hp capabilities), soloing on Unyielding against radiation enemies (and to a lesser extent gun/sword wielders) without Grant Cover often caused cascading defense failure. (I have not run the ITF with the scrapper, to see how he does against the Romans' legendary def debuff.)


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shadow Maul when used with Hover or used while circle strafing will routinely hit multiple mobs. In packs of 15-20, I can consistantly hit 10+ mobs with Shadow Maul (and Sands of Mu which I use prolifically in this setup). Jebe the Pirate can attest to how wide an impact my cones have.

[/ QUOTE ]

City of Data says Shadow Maul can only hit a maximum of five targets. Did this change recently? With all the numbers Shadow Maul creates, is it possible that it's actually hitting fewer targets than it appears?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that Sands of Mu (and Shadow Maul for that matter) had a 5 target limit as well (just from memory) but when I scoured the CoH literature and effects, no target limit is specified. Having double checked through the combat logs, I am most definitely hitting more then 5 mobs. So my guess would be CoD is either wrong or out of date (if this change had been made sometime in the past).

Jebe: I don't think either the range or the angle of the cone changes. What I think is happening is serverside prediction is lagging slightly behind the activation of the power, so the server mistakenly has you in range of more targets then you should be. There are times that I've Sands of Mu'd and Shadow Mauled where I hit mobs literally out in left field.

I *think* the quick fix (and all CoH vets know how much the devs are fans of quick fixes) will be to actually put in a 5 target limit, which will reduce the effectiveness of Sands of Mu and Shadow Maul from amazing, to simply very good (when used correctly).

The same change however would really diminish War Mace, which is right now enjoying really wide cones (45 degree vs. 20) which allows the WM Tanker to get the same effect that I'm talking about with much less effort (less circle strafing / hover strafing needed).


 

Posted

I should have said that the visual effect is the stretched range, not that it physically extends the range. You may be right in that there is serverside lag (maybe a cast time component that does not take lag into account) which is causing this but I suspect it also has to do with hover's combat suppression. I just don't have an idea on how to prove either. Thoughts?


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
A few mistakes in your comments.

On your near-soft-cap. Mids' is set so that Phalanx Fighting gives you the defense bonus of 1 neighbor, so if you're soloing your defense is about 3.75% less (at each position) than Mids' says.


[/ QUOTE ]

My numbers are coming from the in-game power stats where Phalanx Fighting reads as giving 5% by itself (PF includes the Tanker (Scrapper) as one of the allies in its radius).

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Shadow Maul when used with Hover or used while circle strafing will routinely hit multiple mobs. In packs of 15-20, I can consistantly hit 10+ mobs with Shadow Maul (and Sands of Mu which I use prolifically in this setup).

[/ QUOTE ]

Shadow Maul never hits more than five. It can include more than five in its cone, making the odds very low that you miss enough to not hit the cap of five, but once you hit five it doesn't damage any more targets. I think you might be mistaking the smashing/negative damage readouts for 10 targets. (I do the same strafing thing constantly on my DM/Shield scrapper.)


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This is incorrect (and may very well be a bug). I've checked and rechecked this (because I found it hard to believe myself) visually, via combat logs, spawn kill times and eye witnesses (re: jebe). Now Jebe has noted in the past that it seems I can hit more Hover strafing then circle strafing and to be honest I haven't paid quite as much attention to my other toons who don't have Hover past noticing I can hit more then the 2-3 mobs that most people are used to (part of what gave me the though to try out SD/DM). Also in most videos that I've seen people hitting multiple mobs, it's usually been while jumping over a pack rather than pure circle strafing, so the Z-axis might very well be the difference maker.

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I think if you go outside AE, where defense debuffs are more prevalent, you'll maybe find that Grant Cover is somewhat helpful. As a scrapper (with obviously lesser def/res/hp capabilities), soloing on Unyielding against radiation enemies (and to a lesser extent gun/sword wielders) without Grant Cover often caused cascading defense failure. (I have not run the ITF with the scrapper, to see how he does against the Romans' legendary def debuff.)

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Yes, this is my next big test for this guy, the ITF being the next stop. I'm counting on (hoping?) that the toHitDebuffs in DM will offset the debuffs I incur against debuffing mobs. If this turns out not to be the case, then I have the option of dropping Smite to gain Grant Cover and see if that combined with DM's toHitDebuffs equalize out against debuffing mobs.

I'll see if I can make a video tonight of the Shadow Maul / Sands of Mu effects I've been talking about.


 

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Incidentally I was hoping to fit in Taunt instead of Grant Cover, as the one hole so far from a tanking perspective is that it has no physical mitigation except for Shield Charge which is only up every 30 secs or so on this build. What I've found is that this build has a harder time then my other Tankers at protecting team mates, which Taunt should make up the difference.


 

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DM being a single target set is a really big misconception .. it's actually probably the best AOE set out of the Tanker secondaries for straight damage (yes, even more so then Fire).

DM has two primary PBAOEs on fairly longish cool downs in Dark Consumption and Soul Drain. Additionally it has a narrow cone in Shadow Maul which is really DM's bread and butter damage wise. Shadow Maul when used with Hover or used while circle strafing will routinely hit multiple mobs. In packs of 15-20, I can consistantly hit 10+ mobs with Shadow Maul (and Sands of Mu which I use prolifically in this setup). Jebe the Pirate can attest to how wide an impact my cones have.

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I'm well versed in DM... and it being a single target set is not a misconception. The set as a whole got some great buffs recently, but it remains with only shadowmaul as a viable AE - the other two happen to do damage, but it is not their intent. I think, per the archtypes forum topic a while back, cones are suffering from a bug or two right now anyhow - it is very surprising to me that you're hitting more than 5 targets with SM or Mu.


 

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This is incorrect (and may very well be a bug). I've checked and rechecked this (because I found it hard to believe myself) visually, via combat logs, spawn kill times and eye witnesses (re: jebe). Now Jebe has noted in the past that it seems I can hit more Hover strafing then circle strafing and to be honest I haven't paid quite as much attention to my other toons who don't have Hover past noticing I can hit more then the 2-3 mobs that most people are used to (part of what gave me the though to try out SD/DM). Also in most videos that I've seen people hitting multiple mobs, it's usually been while jumping over a pack rather than pure circle strafing, so the Z-axis might very well be the difference maker.

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I'll maybe tinker with this tonight--checking the combat logs. I do both the jump and circle moves and almost always hit but never top five damaged (though will often get a couple "MISS!" alongside the five damaged).


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I'll see if I can make a video tonight of the Shadow Maul / Sands of Mu effects I've been talking about.

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Please do.


 

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Well when my *average* attack hits 10+ mobs, I'd call that an AOE set and not a single target set. But this is also a product of the primary I'm using as well.

You have to realize that AAO in Shields makes the longish AOEs (Dark Consumption and Soul Drain) more viable as damaging AOEs. Enough so that their long recharge times aren't really a factor that is hindering the set (note my results above).


 

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Well when my *average* attack hits 10+ mobs, I'd call that an AOE set and not a single target set. But this is also a product of the primary I'm using as well.

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I assume you're talking about shadow maul which is theoretically (if not actually) capped at 5 targets?

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You have to realize that AAO in Shields makes the longish AOEs (Dark Consumption and Soul Drain) more viable as damaging AOEs. Enough so that their long recharge times aren't really a factor that is hindering the set (note my results above).

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...
SD: 44.49 Negative damage, tanker cap = 4x? so 178
DC: 35.59 Negative damage, so 142.36

vs. +0 minion @ 520 hp @ 50 iirc.

Even running around at the damage cap all the time, you're only doing 70% of a a +0 minion's HP with those two long (120s &amp; 180s base) recharge abilities.

My math might be fuzzy, and it's been a really long time since I played DM (long before the melee range change), but I'm still kind of surprised that this is your experience. As I said, it might get me in the mood to play a tanker again...


 

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I currently have defense debuff resistance capped without Grant Cover. I have enough recharge on Active Debuff to double stack it. Here are my numbers from in-game:

Battle Agility: +26.67%
Active Defense: +34.6%
Double stacked AD: +69.2%

This puts me at 95% (the cap for defense debuff resistance)

To increase your buff on Active Defense, slot it with Membranes Exposure. I have 3 membranes in active defense to get those numbers. I use Membranes because they increase defense (for the higher numbers) and they also increase recharge.