HK008

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting read-I'm currently at lvl30 on my huntswoman/bane dual build. I rebuilt my SoA instead of finishing off my crab. I decided I hated how the stupid crab backpack looks, and that it doesn't go away when I switch builds to a bane...and altitis kicked into gear!

So then-a few questions of my own came into mind:
1. Any reason to stack the 2 armors, the initial 1-24 one and the upgraded Bane one? Can you even DO that?

2. If I'm mainly soloing, is there much of a reason to take the Tactics toggle? I'm having a tough time fitting it in with the other powers I want for soloing (Frag grenade, Pummel, Bayonet...just for fun, really).

3. Do people bother with Wide-area Web Grenade? I took it, but rarely use it for much of anything, it seems. Thoughts?

4. So Web Cocoon is really that awesome? Based on the mag, looks like it can hold a boss on one hit, and the duration is enough to stack it with minimal recharge enhance (maybe even just Mental Training). Any comments on how to slot, why it's so great?

Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

I stacked the 2 armors on my Bane, but not my Huntsman. The Wolf Armor is two slotted with Steadfast (KD protection, and global defense). I don't notice the lack of mez resistance on the Huntsman. I suppose you could get by without Wolf Spider armor, but I am not sure what I would take in it's place.

The Tactics toggle is nice to have due to it's Perception bonus. This comes in handy against your former comrades in Arachnos as Night Widows, and Banes love to hide. It also is a source of Confuse, and Fear protection more a concern for pvp. I suppose you could skip it, but I don't skip any Tactical Training on SoA. Oh, that toggle is a nice place to house the Gaussian's set for more defense. That's probably one of the big reasons I take it.

Wide Area Web Grenade is pretty sweet. It's a decent immobilize power allowing me to keep things at range to make the most of Combat Training: Defensive. It's also got a -50% recharge effect just like the single target version found in Traps/Devices. I like it personally.

Web Cocoon will not hold a boss in one hit (well if you are lucky, and if the pets use their hold it will stick in 1 application), but it will if you stack it. Stacking isn't hard with enough recharge, and hold duration. This power also has properties of Web Grenade (-50% recharge, fly, and run speeds, -10% fly, -50000% jump height). It's pretty good if you have the room for it. Slot this 1-2 accuracy (this depends if you take the training tactics or not), 2-3 hold duration, 1-2 recharge, and 1 endurance to taste. If you take this plan to slot it or otherwise don't bother. An LT mag hold only enhanced for accuracy is a waste of your time.

I went Huntsman after getting annoyed with the legs still up on my Bane build. I really don't notice much of a difference between the rifle attacks, and the Crab blasts. I have the same attack chain (2 single target, 3 AoE) and instead of Omega/Spiderlings I have Web Grenade (which I really like). I'm not blind that the Crab having energy damage is better, but I just don't find it that big a gap in actual play. Plus, I just love the brat-tat-tat of the rifle, and looking at all the empty casings on the ground. It fills me with joy I guess. hehe

[ QUOTE ]
Hello everyone,

I just dinged my first lvl 50 in this game and now I am trying out the Elite AT's. I just read the guides on this page, but I find I still have a general question...

What is the inherent point of playing a Bane over a Night Widow? It seems the Bane is most effective when played as a melee 'blapper,' so if you are going for high damage melee toon with stealth and some ranged attacks, doesn't the Night Widow do a better job of that? I feel like I am missing something here.

Perhaps some of the more experienced players can explain the strengths of the Bane and why one might choose that over playing a Night Widow.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

There are several opinions on Banes in general, and Banes versus Night Widows. I'll offer you my perspective since I have both a Soldier and a Widow each set up with dual builds.

First off if you are looking to min/max there is no reason to play a Bane over a Night Widow. Night Widows are near top of the food chain for melee damage.

Second, I disagree with the philosophy of playing a Bane like a blapper. I prefer to play mine as a Stalker-lite. I find the ranged attacks other than Poisonous Ray to be wastes of power choices. Mace Beam is meh, and it is out done by the Black Scorpion version. The AoE's are quick on recharge, and light on end. That's somewhat attractive until you look at the pitiful damage they do with 2s animations. Garbage. I've leveled my Bane successfully with the mace melee, and for a time I had Mace Beam. I rarely used it for anything more than a mule for the Thunderstrike set. Learn to love Surveillance + Build Up as an opener, and follow up with Placate. Due to the low melee defense there might be times you need to run to re-hide, but I would rather do that than pew-pew with those pathetic energy blasts. If you group a lot then this shouldn't be as big an issue, and you will fill a quasi-stalker role of assassinating problem targets. You'll also provide a nice defense, to-hit, and damage bonus with your Tactical Training powers. Of course all of that is shared with a Night Widow as well.

So, if Night Widows are better why do I like my Bane better? I happen to like the debuffs it brings in Surveillance, and Poisonous Ray. I happen to like the crunch of Shatter, and the devastation of Crowd Control after Placate. I like having my own team of robo-spiders. I like not running out of endurance with my attack chain like I do on my Widow. I like looking like a Wolf Spider with a spiked baseball bat. My Bane was also my first SoA.

If you absolutely have to have the best melee out of the SoA's go with the Night Widow. Hopefully you will make a soldier as well. Even if you go Crab I highly recommend using the dual build option to explore the Bane. It's not as bad as some make it out to be, but it's not the best of the four branches either.

I'll agree with the Huntsman guru. The build looks fine. I never felt a need for any more attacks than what the rifle provides. How do you like adding the Mu attacks?

[ QUOTE ]
I personally don't view IO sets as 'required'. I'll try fitting them in, but their a nice bonus and not a build 'must have'. And even if you do include them, slotting to get soft capped defense for instance can mean sacrificing things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sacrificing things is pretty vague vs saying giving up offense. I think all builds that are created for function over concept make a sacrifice for specialization. Just how much of an impact those sacrifices are is pretty debatable. I think any of the SoA's on just SO's are pretty good AT's. When you introduce IO's though it's quite literally having your cake, and EATing (I couldn't resist) too!

[ QUOTE ]
Well, widows can get mind link for a click def boost, but that's not something IMO you can depend on always. And spiders don't get that to begin with. If a spider gets high melee and aoe defense, they had to sacrifice a fair amount of offensive ability. Part of which could easily be their pets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you only considering only SO's? That statement isn't true when you consider IO's. The only thing I have given up on my SoA's is a travel power, but that is part concept. SoA's have so many powers that can accept sets with defense bonuses that it's not hard to soft cap any of them if you want. I found it particularly easy to soft cap both my Bane, and NW (that is without ML, and hidden) while maintaining a complete attack chain on both.

Sorry to de-rail. I enjoyed this story. It reminded me of when I first played my Soldier back when everyone and their grandmothers were doing it. It was common to group with 6+ SoA's, and it was a blast. More recently I was playing my Huntsman build with 2 other Crabs, and we demolished many a spawn. It's always a blast to group with other SoA's.

What Helin said. Though if your funds are on the low side I wouldn't expect much in the realm of IOing to become an AV soloing beast. That doesn't mean you can't get some nice performance out of IO's. Trying to soft cap a WP toon even with typed defenses won't be cheap either. I'd recommend looking into frankenslotting your attacks, and look for some of the lower level 3pc set bonuses. Some that come to mind are Bruising Blow, and Smashing Haymaker for single target attacks. Both sets offer a hit point increase at 3pcs which will help your regeneration rate (a strength of the set). Some other sets like Serendipity offer a small regeneration, and hit point bonus with 3pcs. It's not quite as awesome as Luck of the Gambler but it might be in your price range.

I would highly recommend going to the market, and looking at the recipes. See what you can grab, and for what costs. However, before you buy a single recipe take a look at the salvage required for the level range you are browsing. Then look up the salvage and find out how much it is going for. Sometimes salvage makes a higher level IO not very cost effective because you may end up paying a great deal more for only 1-2% out of the enhancement.

Finally you can kick some serious butt with DB/WP on just SO's if you have the right combos (Attack Vitals, and maybe Sweep if you wanted), and most of the WP set. So don't worry too much about team contribution. You'll contribute as long as you do what Scrappers do best. Good Luck!

[ QUOTE ]
Could work, I think Bayonet has the highest DPA(I think, might have read something wrong) melee attack in the Spiders arsenal. And you can't go wrong with Pummel.

I'd dip into Mace a bit though for Build Up and for Crowd Control. Maybe Shatter for big targets.

Sounds like fun actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

This. If you really want to include some melee to a Huntsman (I've seen it done quite a bit actually) try to keep the melee down to about 2 attacks. You can go with either Pummel + Bayonet to avoid redraw, or go Shatter + Crowd Control. Either way would work fine, but you'll bog down your build trying to complete both melee and ranged attack chains.

What spider wouldn't take VG? I didn't! I have VG on my ranged build though. So what are you looking to accomplish? Add Pulverize, increase AoE defense, and maintain the other defenses? If that is the case, I made some changes without any purples, but some of my replacement IO's will still be expensive. I do drop your 2 purples so you can probably fund the some changes with that cash. You can of course swap out the Serendipity sets in both Maneuvers I was just including a cheap way to boost HP in those two. I even squeezed 1% more global damage, kept your melee/range defense high, and increased your AoE. I did drop SJ to make room for Pulverize, but I don't miss a travel on any of my SoA's with the cheap-o rocket packs in Gville. Hopefully this gives you some ideas though!

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Very interesting ideas there Sarrate. You are basically taking your Tanker's IO slotting, and applying it to Brutes. I did the opposite. I took my Brute's slotting, and applied it to my Tanker. What I found was I blew away the Tanker HP cap, and I had to swap some things around. I go for maximum hit points, regeneration, and recharge in that order for all my WP toons. I found with my Tanker I had a lot more flexibility in regeneration due to HP's begin so incredibly easy to cap out (Stalkers also have this issue). Not knocking the slotting ideas, but I find it interesting just how different Tanker/Brute slotting for WP actually are.

If you go for Stamina you don't need Dark Consumption (if you are looking for an AoE attack you picked the wrong primary). Taunt is fine, but not needed either. Not knowing how your build looks or your goals I would consider starting Fitness/Fighting. I'd also gouge my own eyes out if I only had Smite, Siphon, and Maul as attacks. So I would really look at Air Superiority if you don't have it yet. Boxing isn't too bad either plus it opens Fighting.

Thanks for posting the build. Here are the changes I would make. Consider this a skeleton. It has 1 power, and 5 slots open. You could choose whatever you want. The slotting order isn't how I would do it either it's just to get an overview of what the build might look like at 50. The power order is how I might do it. You can put off Stamina especially since you don't have crashes (hasten/rage) to deal with. Fighting can also be put off. I've never felt a need to have it ASAP. Hopefully this gives you some ideas. Good luck!


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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Little discussion in the brute boards.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13617256

[/ QUOTE ]

An idiot thread by an idiot OP who is incapable of realizing the effect of debuff resists.

[/ QUOTE ]

This. I'd hardly call it a discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
How survivable is Fire/SR? Will you need a [censored] ton more than soft-cap to be viably survivable? Aid Self?

[/ QUOTE ]

FR/SR is just as survivable as anything else once you soft cap defense. Aid Self is just a really good idea for defense based characters because you aren't as likely to be interrupted while using it.

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure which 3 you mean, Health/tough/weave? That's 5 powers. I only have room for 3 and still be able to build the way I want. I have (want) to go either Fitness OR Fighting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I am more interested in what you plan to take that would preclude one or the other. Given the choice though I would take Fighting. Just leveling up you won't miss out on Fitness, but for a future IO build I would highly recommend it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to say that I am happy with seeing a WP post in which the OP isn't complaining about the survivability of the set. It's like a breath of fresh air. Also, I want to say that your current plan is fairly solid, but I will tell you what I would do differently.

Tough and Weave could use 1-2 more slots. RttC can lose the to hit debuff. I'd drop Hover and look for a way to add Chain Induction. I'd skip Mu Lightening, and go with Electric Fences + Ball Lightening. For the most part I think you are on the right track. Good luck!

[/ QUOTE ]


Is there much of a difference between Brute WP and Scrapper WP? ( never played the Brute version ). My Scrapper survives +5 dificulty just fine with WP, I know Longbow sort of suck against regen types but with Tough and Weave you should have at lease 50% resist and 25% + Def with basic IO sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Brute version is identical to the Scrapper version. Brutes enjoy higher base hit points, a higher hit point cap, and higher resistance caps. CoV does have a lot more debuffs from level 1 to 50 though. So sometimes we see posts about survival problems with WP, but I'm thinking it's more a lack of understanding the foes causing the issues than it is poor builds (though they do happen. but WP is hard to mess up).

I want to say that I am happy with seeing a WP post in which the OP isn't complaining about the survivability of the set. It's like a breath of fresh air. Also, I want to say that your current plan is fairly solid, but I will tell you what I would do differently.

Tough and Weave could use 1-2 more slots. RttC can lose the to hit debuff. I'd drop Hover and look for a way to add Chain Induction. I'd skip Mu Lightening, and go with Electric Fences + Ball Lightening. For the most part I think you are on the right track. Good luck!

[ QUOTE ]
I have a DM/SD brute. Will I ever be able to drop an AV? I've fought elite bosses with no problem, but wonder if I'll ever have the raw damage/endurance management/survivability to take an AV down. I managed to go toe to toe with Scrapyard, but couldn't get his health down very far.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to put the infamy into a DM/SD it can attain the raw damage/endurance management/survivability to take down an AV. It won't be a cheap build by any means, but it can be done.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you you at the area of effect on the left side you see brutes and scrappers have an effect of character. Tankers on the other hand have sphere, with a radius of 9 feet and max target 5.

I also stand corrected on those 3 powers, but that does not give scrappers taunt auras like the rest. It gives three sets a taunt aura. It is not like any set has a taunt aura in a self only SR ability, or 3 taunt auras in dark aura like tankers.

Also if pets a peeling aggro off a tank, then doesn't that counter your point of MM's not have the aggro control needed to tank?

[/ QUOTE ]Thanks for pointing out the CoD character/sphere info listing. Weird that I find it more effective on my Brute then. Scrappers having access to Taunt Auras in general was my point. Pets being capable of peeling aggro off at times doesn't counter my point because it only occurs sometimes and they lack the ability to actually control it.

[ QUOTE ]
he's the kind that rolls a tanker to deal damage.

[/ QUOTE ]That must be why my Willpower Tanker has 13.5% recharge and no Hasten or Epic Pools.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you might find more effective on your Brute is higher damage plus the single target taunt is included in your AoE's. So if you are capable of spamming AoE you are taunting as well. Scrappers having taunt auras is no big surprise. Ever since the game started they where placed as "off tanks". Sure that concept rarely works, but it's why they have a version of taunt in the primary. Secondaries with taunt auras are there because usually those sets have a function based on the number of enemies adjacent to the character. To have them function properly they taunt as well. Scrappers are typically tough enough to handle a little extra heat.

This thing about MM pets stripping aggro has me a bit perplexed. What type of encounter are we talking about here? I find it very hard to believe that a MM pet is going to pull aggro off a Tanker fighting a single target especially if the Tanker knows when to taunt. When fighting large packs of mobs sometimes a Tanker can lose a few, but then we can start adding Blasters/Controllers/Defenders etc... into the list of beings capable of "stripping aggro". I just find it hard to believe that -2, and -1 minion pets are pulling aggro on single target fights. I might believe Boss pets can, but I have never lost aggro on my Brute to an Assault Bot, for example, even without taunt. I'm just not sure what you are experiencing that I haven't.

Several changes I would suggest, and I haven't even played with your Siphon Life slotting yet.

I have Resurgence in the build mostly because I wasn't sure if you wanted a travel power or not. I also ran out of ideas for power choices. If I sit down with it I would probably tweak some things further, but I just present this to give you some alternate ideas. Yes, I dropped your regeneration rate, but I did increase the total hit points so the amount of hit points recovered is very similar. If you look under the sets &amp; bonuses in the tab "Window" next to "View" you will notice you are no longer capped on a bonus. Your original build has you capped with one of the hit point bonuses.

I stripped down some of your defense, but why bother with only Fire/Cold anyway. You still have an option for more defense than my SS/WP Brute has, and I honestly don't feel I am missing it with how much he regenerates in a large spawn. I just don't like trying to build defense on WP hence why I went for ways to increase your hit points. You'll also notice I changed MG to now include the purple proc. You have endurance recovery out of your ears with DC in the build so I just added a Mako to buff the dmg/recharge. I also increased your global recharge a bit. Depending on how you want to keep DC slotted you could squeeze more recharge switching it to an attack slotting. Oh, and if you turn on Accolades you will see you can hit 170% on your hit points. 71hp a sec with one target in RttC isn't too bad.

I'm not going to call this perfect, but hopefully it gets the juices flowing for ideas.

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[ QUOTE ]
I am sure this has been brought up many many times before in previous forums. I have been also perusing all the FAQ's on these two to find out which one is best at soloing as I will soon be at level 50 with my Bots/Traps MM and not sure which one to pick? So, to make it easy on everyone, let me break it down like this:

(1) Which Archetype can produce more damage
either in melee or ranged attacks?

(2) Which Archetype is best at soloing?

(3) Which Archetype might get more invites to teams as they are seen as more valuable in team play?

(4) In the early levels, which Archetype has more bells and whistles in their arsenal?

(5) Which Archetype has better survivability (defense)

These are just a few things I thought of. Feel free to add anything else you guys might know about these two to help me decide which one to build first. I know there will be pros and cons for both but from what I've been reading in some of the FAQ's it appears the Arachnos Widow might be the best solo'er in the group but not sure about sheer damage and defense versus the Arachnos Soldier?

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Well for bells and whistles the Soldier has some unique offense options in Pummel (Mag 3 stun!), and Wide Area Web Grenade. The Widow has claw attacks, but don't dis the Dart Burst! Either option you are stuck with basic training until level 24, and then you can respec into a branch of your choice.

I don't really notice a difference of group invites over either Widow/Soldier. Folks love having either because of all the Leadership buffs they bring, and no matter what you know they are packing some serious heat too!

The Widow I think is better over all at solo just because either the Fort or NW builds can do it just fine. With Soldiers Banes have soloing on lock down over Crabs for a long time. Crabs can solo, but as an AT they mature pretty late.

What I recommend is playing both, and see what you like best. I also recommend dual builds. I have a Fort/NW as one character, and a Bane/Huntsman build. Huntsman is option 3 for Soldiers. Sure, it doesn't have the energy damage or as many options, but the rifle attacks really are quite nice. Usually these builds take the Bane secondary stuff like the debuff. A third option for Widows are the melee Forts. They take a combination of Blood widow strikes, and Fort psi blasts. They can be very devastating.

Embrace the options! Make two new characters!!

If you plan on grouping a lot you might get away fine without maneuvers, and assault would be really nice. If you plan to solo just 5% more defense will be rather meaningless as you aren't anywhere near capping defenses.

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20 million invested into /SR isn't going to make an AV killer without inspirations. You need enough dps (160 is a good target) to out pace AV health regeneration. You need enough endurance management, and recovery to not run out of gas because AV fights can take several minutes depending on the resist type. You'll want high regen (295-300+), and while some folks skip Aid Self I *highly* recommend it for defense builds.

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Yeah, I am aware of the cost to make an AV killer with /SR but soft cap early means the game is much much more enjoyable early and the path to AV killer is more obvious than /WP.


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Ah, I gotcha. I sent you a PM. I didn't include just how I combined IO's to get the results that I have. The PM just gives you the details on the raw numbers that I was able to achieve, and what set IO's I used to do it. Hopefully you can find some of it of use to inspire your own designs into a SS/WP build.

20 million invested into /SR isn't going to make an AV killer without inspirations. You need enough dps (160 is a good target) to out pace AV health regeneration. You need enough endurance management, and recovery to not run out of gas because AV fights can take several minutes depending on the resist type. You'll want high regen (295-300+), and while some folks skip Aid Self I *highly* recommend it for defense builds.

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Inspirations is when the brownies hit the fan or when I know it will (like I am gonna face an EB). If I die with useful inspirations in the tray it's because I was surprised I went down.

I noticed that you get way less inspirations when in group than solo which is something that should be fixed imho.

For normal gameplay, I find it normal to not have to use inspirations and since I know some builts can take on an AV and 8-man spawns at relentless without inspirations or any external help (soft caped /SR for example), it's annoying and frustrating that I need them just to defeat an EB.

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I think this is probably one of the biggest problems right here. Builds that can take on AV's, and 8 man team spawns without inspirations are not cheap!!! You can soft cap /SR for less than some other sets, but there are also other factors to take into account when fighting AV's/Pylons etc... Don't fall into the hype thinking that WP is so amazing that it doesn't need some planning before you rush into a fight. Red side you face some really nasty baddies, and there is no shame in using orange/purples before engaging.

You really need to understand your weaknesses vs some targets, and then use the resources you have to help survive it. Just because a Toxic Tarantula hands you your behind does not mean the set sucks. You have very low resistance to toxic damage, and virtually no defense for it. If you used an orange, and maybe Strength of Will before hand you can let your regen do it's job without being overwhelmed. I just use this example because I remember it happening to me. Willpower has little in it to control the out come of a fight, and not enough defense/resistance to survive all types of targets. So sometimes despite how awesome the set is you need to be a little proactive about your defense.

As for the build that makes SS/WP a beast I have to ask you something. How much time/infamy are you willing to invest? I found the set combo fun from 1-50, and quite tough in some situations. However, it wasn't until I spent more infamy than I care to discuss on purples, LotG's, and several uniques that mine became a "beast". If you don't like the character I wouldn't recommend spending any more time with it. It could very well be that it's not for you.