Gilia

Everything Muon_NEutrino said, but I'd also add that because of the way Targeted AoEs work, missing isn't a gigantic concern. Missed targets don't count toward the target cap, so if you have a large enough group, even with a reasonable chance to hit, you will hit all 16, or however many FS has for a cap.

The fact that FS can miss is much more noticeable with small mobs.

I'm pretty sure that was a typo and meant to say less slots in it.
So that's pretty much the same question.

I bet if you got even minimal recovery bonuses else where, you'd be fine with just that one slot in stamina. Like the Miracle proc in Health, and maybe a few small bonuses elsewhere. It will depend a lot on how much recharge you have, because the closer DP is to perma the less you would need any other help. That's going to take like 200% global recharge bonuses though :-(.

Me too. I had sense enough for at least a message or two to think it would be better discussed in private messages rather than thread jacking, but I lost that sense I suppose.

/signed

Waaaaait a second... Isn't Flurry a single target attack?

Oh, I gotcha.

Yeah the increase in 50%, however you slice it, has got to be the most relevant way to put it, at least in regards to farming. Being able to take on 2/3s the mobs your soft capped friends can is a pretty significant difference.

Hahaha... can't help me... if I don't get it... that's awesome since your terms don't even match what I quoted. Trust me, I get it.

You substituted gB + hC with eA + fC.... but you were wrong to do so, because you had just established that Get it? There's a +r in there. It has to remain in there. You can't substitute some of the variables. You have to take all of what's on the other side when you substitute.
What you did was like this:
X+2=Y
X=Y
Note that there's no 2 in there.

If your algebra was even close (it's not), you would have proven that you can simply remove strict inequalities willy nilly (you can't).

That was the half that was blatantly wrong. The first half was the blatantly pointless.
Since you had the arbitrary premise
and concluded
That's like
2+2=4
2+2+i=4+j, when i=j
i=j

My favorite part is you started with an arrogant and misplaced remark
When I had just showed that the only thing you claimed I did wrong, you actually just misread or misinterpreted or... forgot how math works maybe.... But had no follow up when I corrected you... Then put out work that would have got you an F in a remedial pre-algebra class. Perhaps you're not aware of what "wrong" means.

So yeah, I get it.

Did you mean to say threat, rather than gauntlet? AFAIK, Rage doesn't effect gauntlet, but the increase in damage can help maintain threat.

What the previous two posters said is true, it's because RttC is a weak taunt aura. However, you shouldn't have too much trouble.
SS is also part of the problem. What level are you? Lacking AoE damage before level 38 will make it a little harder to hold aggro. The lack of a debuff on your attacks means they cause less threat than some other attack sets would.

You should be spreading your taunt and ST attacks around to spread the taunt-love that comes from sources other than RttC. Also, with RttC's weakness in mind, you may slot the power Taunt more than you otherwise would. There's some boss sets that are pretty cheap, so consider investing in it if you haven't already.

I have a WP/DB Tanker, and I almost never had trouble controlling aggro. Even with a duo partner who happened to be a Fire/ Blaster who loved to draw extra groups, I could still hold everyones' attention.

If all else fails, you could pick up Provoke from the presence pool, to have an extra taunt power when you need the extra threat. Since SOOO much of your damage will come from Footstomp and your Epic's AoE, you could easily toss Provoke and Taunt inbetween your attacks without much drop in DPS. However, the only advantage to Provoke over Gauntlet is the larger radius.

How do you figure it's a difference of 2.5%?
If against most content you're hit 50% of the time, softcapped defense means you are hit 5% of the time, taking 10% of the damage you normally would.
Capped at 85% resists means you take 15% damage.

So there's a difference of 5% of the original, undefended, unresisted damage, or more relevant, you take 50% more damage (15% instead of 10%) than you would with defense.
It's much bigger than 2.5%.

OP: If you're tailoring your missions to farm, and not killing fast enough to continually have a purple or two active, it sounds to me like you need to kill faster. The lack of Soul Extraction probably is a problem there.

If you can get perma-eclipse, have your attacks well slotted, then any defense you can add after that would be worth it, and it would be gravy.

It isn't even sound...
All of the algebra in the post was no different than saying "If i=j, then i=j." Literally the conclusion of the proofs were premises established arbitrarily at some point prior.

Even if you did go back and read it all, there's lots of factors that need to be established that he insisted on dropping from consideration. There's literally nothing informative about that post at all.

Honestly, the next conversation about the effectiveness of Footstomp (because of it's area) vs the increased DPS that Shockwave and Spin offer in claws is probably more informative. Bill and I showed in different ways that even double-rage applied to a secondary/epic attacks isn't enough to make it stand tall above Claws/, though it does need to be accounted for.

I would bet that if more tests were done with all else being equal, SS/ and Claws/ probably farm at about the same pace. If those silly all boss farms were still around, I'd probably prefer Claws/ because of the increased DPS and the lower chance of the mobs scattering randomly. For anything else, it could easily be a wash.

I love this idea! Perhaps not for Dark because of the other stuff I mentioned, but it could make for an awesome mechanic with future power sets or something.
It wouldn't have to be that complicated. It really would only be as complicated as DSorrow said. There's already powers that have a mix of enhanceable and unenhancable values for the same mechanic (fly and sprint come to mind), so there's no reason to think it wouldn't work for knockback.

Sorry, I hit quote on your message on accident. I didn't mean to sound like I disagreed with you, as you clearly understand what's what. My apologies.

Also, it was pretty rude to threadjack over something covered in English 101, so my apologies for that as well.

tl;dr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion
No amount of spinning the semantics is going to change the fact that to say you like something is to claim a value to it that is purely subjective. That's exactly what an opinion is.

It's still hilarious to claim otherwise.

Seriously though, watch the video. Even a kids show can explain it.

Or just google it, or take an English class, whatever works.
http://www.suite101.com/content/fact...on-plan-a87775
Just because you can say "It is a fact that I like ice cream" (and that in its entirety is a fact) doesn't change that "I like ice cream" is an opinion. Words like "like" "think" "feel" "appreciate" "prefer" all signal an opinion.

Sure it's ambigious sometimes.
Statement of Opinion: I love how ridiculous it is to claim otherwise.
Statement of Fact: It is ridiculous to claim otherwise.

This actually doesn't really hold true anymore. The game was largely developed before the ESRB ratings had been retooled, particularly in regards to violence. The given reason that everything was "defeat" or "arrest" for people (though more violent sounding words like "destroy" or "blow up" can be used for bases or vehicles containing people) was that to use death language would warrant a Mature rating, rather than Teen. That would mean restricting who could buy the game in the USA, and certainly give some parents the idea their kids shouldn't be playing the game.

However, by the time the game was released the rating had been changed. Now to warrant Mature in regards to violence, it has to be very graphic language, use blood or other graphic imagery. You can see a progression in language from the earliest content added, with a big jump at CoV, and culminating at GR where you explicitly choose (in the form of alignment choices) whether or not to kill someone. There's actually many places where the script, navigator, and now choices use words that cannot simply be written off as "arrest."

Naturally there's still all of the content we started with. You can easily bypass any unsavory actions. Even the tip missions that suggest you will be murdering someone give you the option to go another route, or you can simply dismiss any such tips. Of course even with the addition of the occasional explicit reference to killing, it doesn't saturate all the new content. However, trying to pass a character off as a pacifistic in this game is a biiiiig stretch at best at this point. At least if you plan to level.

I'm guessing the system has a check like: if the backpack is available, put it on. It's intentionally preventing the OP's method, because otherwise you could skip out on the backpack even if you were a crab. If this is the case, then how to know what's available or not might have to change. That might effect costumes when one build has the weapon available, and the other does not. Who knows. I'm sure if it were an easy fix, it would have been done by now.

I just have to ask. Why would you necro a thread just to agree with something that was said? I guess it probably wasn't buried real deep, since it's the SoA board and everything. It still struck me as odd.

You said that stating that you like something is not stating an opinion. I find that hilarious more than anything.

When you're done with your dictionary, this should help clear it up for you:
http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/fact...sopinions.html
You might want to go through it a few times to get a variety of questions, before you go "correcting" someone else.

Anyway, I have to say I agree with how difficult it is to place the "worst" Brute build. I would probably put /FA as the squishiest and /EA with the most skippables. That's just for secondaries. After seeing the compartive numbers of KM/ on Brutes vs the other melee ATs, I'm tempted to put that as the worst primary. The -damage probably contributes enough to survivability that the real "worst" would still be somewhere else. Like how Energy Melee lacks significant AoE.

Not notifying is an excellent advantage during speed runs or any other time your less squishy friends might start running off. It's certainly not a concern only for the LRSF.

How is this the case more for mind than any other set?

I would recommend Mind/ over Plant/ if you plan to team. For one, it doesn't take a very expensive Mind Control build to be breaking through PtoD, confusing almost any AV. Plant has no chance of doing that. Carrion Creepers against Romulus are hilarious. Lastly, the lack of notification on both the AoE Sleep and the AoE Confuse (at better range) means you can be locking down several mobs (on full team TFs, I often have 5-6 mobs held down) without attracting much attention to yourself.

I've run many TFs with Mind/ and Plant/ Doms at the same time, and I've yet to see the Plant/ outshine the Mind/ even when they were more heavily IO'd.

Plant/ is certainly more efficient for soloing, and getting seeds early is really nice. For a serious investment though, I'd go with Mind/.

To the OP:
Sets that usually catch peoples attention are Mind/Energy and Plant/Fire, probably more than any other Dom sets.

To keep it cheap though, I would certainly consider Fire/ or Earth/ for your primary. /Earth or /Energy could be used to supplement the mitigation (the first is good for melee, the second for ranged), or you could go /Fire to maximize damage rather than control.

The amount depends. It's typically 1, but a few things might be knocked back with less than that. The problem with this "idea" is you're talking a fair amount of slot investment, because of the Purple Patch.

So, for example, you would need at least a 70% enhancement to make a +1 enemy get knocked back, assuming it's has no protection. That's possible with one slot, once you're level 42 and can slot a level 45 IO. Otherwise, you're talking about two SOs, or some mix of IOs with more than one aspect.

For +3s (the least I would expect on a team) you're talking 130% enhancement. Three SOs, 2 level 45 IOs, or dedication to a knockback set.

No matter how you get at it, you would be sacrificing some enhancement aspect, most likely damage, to appease the folks who can't handle knockback. So you might make one group of people a bit happier, but you're going to upset another.

Knockback magnitude also determines the distance they fly. It changes its effectiveness. Knockdown is great if you're in melee, but some ranged characters really like knockback. With Dark Blast, I love it with TT, because it means being able to bunch enemies from range.

Dark Blast is probably the last set I would call for removing KB from, besides Energy Blast. The set already has two higher damaging and lower recharging cones, so Torrent is easily skippable or used primarily for mitigation. Outside of Dark Pit (no damage, low magnitude), Torrent is the only way to avoid taking a full frontal alpha strike and making it KD would severely reduce its usefulness there.

It would be much better to call for -KB in TT, IMO. Perhaps even an appropriate amount that could appease both crowds, like only -9.5 KB. That's if they change it at all.

I agree with the OP, though. I would be content to see the recharge and heal rate cut in half instead. Perhaps that wouldn't be as good for heavily IO'd builds, but as you say it's not really a popular power now anyhow...

Your soft cap is coming from Fortitude primarily, right? That has psionic defense, as does Weave, so the need for some extra psi resist isn't going to be as prevalent as it is for someone who used IOs to soft-cap S/L or ranged defense.

Soul Drain does stick out for such a trio among the Epics. How easy would it be for you to become a villain and do a patron arc? The problem with Dark Mastery is you're waiting till 47 for the gemstone. If you do a patron arc and grab Soul Mastery, you can get it at 41. I also would think having a hold attack on your Defenders might come in handy for when you want to lock down some particularly nasty targets. Soul Mastery would give you that, and Dark would not.

If you go with TA/Archery, you're double-in luck as a Defender, because RoA does about the same damage too.

I think you've made a pretty good case for Defenders, up until this part. The difference in damage modifier is actually larger than 7.5%, and Scourge is worth considering no matter what you're fighting. That's because on teams you're presumably going to hit mobs with a variety of hit points, and you're actually less likely to be the one opening the attack, so hitting them at 100% is actually less likely. Scourge also applies to total damage, while Vigilance only applies to base damage, just because of the way criticals vs damage bonuses work. Scourge is often gauged as a 30% increase to damage. I agree with that assessment.

Assume you hit everything AA and DA before attacking. For most attacks damage will look like this: (Mod*(1+Enhancements+Damage Bonuses)*Scourge)*(1+Resist Debuffs)
Corr = 0.75*(0.95)*1.3*1.3 = 2.47
Def (solo) = 0.65*(0.95+0.3)*1.4 = 2.05
Def (full team) = 0.65*(0.95)*1.4 = 1.77

It's really more like 50% more damage, rather than 7.5%.

The Defender is still increasing her team's damage by a larger amount, but for most attacks their own damage will lag behind. Psuedo pets disrupt this, as RoA, Blizzard, and OSA all do the same or close to the same on Defenders as they do on Corruptors. So if a huge portion of your damage comes from OSA/RoA, then the Defender will be much closer. IF they inherit both Vigilance and Scourge, they will still be better on the Corruptor.

So can OSA Scourge? If it can, then the only thing I would say the Defender really has going for it is (as you mentioned) it's easier to get the defense of your choice soft-capped, and the extra debuffs make you and everyone else more survivable.

OP: I would really base your choice, Defender vs Corruptor, on the attack set. If you went Archery, so much of your damage is from RoA and OSA, that the damage gap is shortened, but you retain all the advantages if you go Defender. If you went DP, or some other set with no psuedopets, go for Corruptor. Naturally if you have any interest in something like Rain of Fire + OSA, you have to go Corruptor

If you are built for some recovery, you could easily skip Stone Skin for Tough. Just the Steadfast IO in Tough + Granite will cap your S/L resists. You save that power pick you mentioned that way.

Maneuvers isn't a bad idea though! That'd be easier on the blue bar for sure.

I think KM & Power Siphon are a little harder to boil down, unfortunately. That's because of what I mentioned in my last post: I'm not sure how Concentrated Strike compares. How often Power Siphon is actually up will vary based on that.

Let's assume it's the same, though.
If you do the same formulaic overview that I did before, with one application of Power Siphon, before Criticals, and counting Fury as +120% the damage is suspiciously similiar.
Brutes: 0.75*(0.95+1.2+.25)=2.55
Scrappers: 1.125*(0.95+.33)=2.56 (vs Mns 2.69, vs Lt+ 2.82)
However, with 5 applications the gap is even worse than it was with /Shield.
Brutes: 0.75*(0.95+1.2+1.25)=3.30
Scrappers: 1.125*(0.95+1.56)=4.05 (vs Mns 4.25, vs Lt+ 4.45)

It only gets worse. This is compounded by what I observed in my last post, that the gap in base damage is larger in KM/ than the standard deviation. I'm not sure if Scrappers are doing more or Brutes doing less, because all I did was compare the base damages. Either way, the gaps noted above are an underestimation. Brutes would in fact trail even more.

It's also compounded (though probably not as much) by the difference in +ToHit than Power Siphon offers.

Remember, also, that I'm calling Fury +120%, which is above the average a Brute will maintain. It's what a Brute will hold while scrapperlocking, continually attacking, taking alphas, that sort of thing. It can be maintained for long periods of time, however, and I find it to be an appropriate benchmark.

For KM/Shield, a Scrapper's damage would decimate a Brute's.

I digress, I think the only thing that could salvage this situation is if Concentrated Strike was much better for Brutes. If Power Siphon were up more often that could close the gap.

Edit:
I also think it's worth noting that these comparisons shouldn't be taken as gospel. A true run down of an attack chain, with a certain amount of recharge etc, would shed more light into the discrepancy of damage. They should be taken as an indicator of the probable difference in damage, and I believe they are particularly useful when comparing the exact same set across two ATs.

As long as this is a point of contention, I was wondering how does Concentrated Strike work for Brutes? I see in the details/data view that it can recharge Power Siphon but I don't see a percentile associated with it.

How well KM works with Brutes compared to Scrappers rides on this quite a bit. Part of the awesome sauce with Stalkers is their critical can top out at 31%. That's a pretty boss chance to recharge Build Up instantly. Let alone being able to Placate->CS to get Build Up back allows for some added flexibility and use for Placate.

With Brutes, how much higher or lower it is than Scrappers (or if it just can't at all) would say a lot about comparing the set with these two ATs.

If it's the same, lower, or not at all then I'm inclined to agree that KM just flat out isn't as good on Brutes as it is on Scrappers. Comparing the damage on each of the attacks, with the exception of CS, the base damage has an even bigger gap than normal.

The damage mods .75 and 1.125 suggest that the Scrapper does 50% more than the Brute (base), or that the Brute does 66% of the Scrapper at base. However a cursory glance at the attacks in KM shows that the Scrapper does 65% more, or to put it the other way the Brute only does 60%. That's not good at all.

The only way to save Brutes in that, from what I can tell, would be to give Concentrated Strike a really high chance to recharge Power Siphon.

Wait... Elm?

While this is true, it's not really a correction. For example, if you say a Brute is getting +120% damage from Fury (not at all uncommon once they have scrapper locked for a bit), and the Brute and Scrapper both have Blinding Feint up... the difference in damage before Criticals is not much. Which, coincidently, is exactly what Nalrok_AthZim said.
Call it Mod*(Enhancements+Fury+OtherBuffs)*Critical
Brute: 0.75*(0.95+1.2+0.3) = 2.59
Scrapper: 1.125*(0.95+0.375) = 2.61
w/Crits vs Mns: 2.61*1.05=2.75
w/Crits vs Lt+: 2.61*1.10=2.88

If you double the application (two Blinding Feint effects) the difference becomes 2.81 vs 3.03, before Criticals. Again, not a heck of a lot.

A more extreme case, where the damage gap is larger, would be as you mentioned Shield Defense. However, saturated, the damage difference is 2.85 vs 3.15. I would say .3 is worth shaking a stick at, since that's almost half a Defender's contribution (if they just attacked, I mean), and after criticals it's almost an entire Defender contribution.

So, yeah, exactly what Nalrok_AthZim said in the first place. A worth while footnote to his post, but I wouldn't have said "that's incorrect."

Follow Up, for sure.

In TT:Leadership it will check every 10 seconds. In Follow Up it will check every time you hit someone with Follow Up. I imagine it's a regular in your chain, since you're probably trying to stack Follow Up's damage bonus with itself.

The only reason I'd consider TT:Leadership is if you're going for a primarily ranged build or something like that, where you're not going to be using Follow Up as much as possible. That's more likely going to be a Fort's concern though, I would imagine. Since I'm guessing you're going for a melee focus, having taken Follow Up and being a Night Widow and everything, go with Follow Up.

Edit: Oh, or I guess if you were going for the whole Gaussian set, because Tactics would benefit from it and you probably want some damage in Follow Up.