What are you fighting that makes 85% resistance not good enough?
In order to mimic the mitigation of 45% softcapping to all positions against regular (50% base tohit) mobs, I believe you would need about 16% defense to go with your 85% resistance.
Other than that I can't really comment as I am no expert on human-only builds. I guess remember to use Stygian Circle?
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Most things seem to cut through the res.. maybe its because I am not all the way to 50 yet(47)?? I went and tested my toon in a large fire mob in AE and I did well as long as I had about 3 purple insp's going. Without them I hit the floor hard and fast. I had it set to +1/8
I have been reading on here that most people have trouble in a solo situation and I would have to agree with that. Solo is a tough go when you need a mob to make your toon work. Stygian Circle works good if you kill someone but its not going to give you enough health from one body as you get beat up by the mob.
So this is a AT that is better with a team. I really like the idea of putting leadership in a WS build but.. heh wating for a teamate to die so you can be really uber seems kinda silly. Ya don't get up yet.. I need you dead.
Its a tough theme that you need something dead to feed off of but you might not get enough from 1 body. You need a team to really make it work and then also you might need a dude to die to make your dude uber.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
What are you fighting that makes 85% resistance not good enough?
In order to mimic the mitigation of 45% softcapping to all positions against regular (50% base tohit) mobs, I believe you would need about 16% defense to go with your 85% resistance. Other than that I can't really comment as I am no expert on human-only builds. I guess remember to use Stygian Circle? |
I'm a bit in the dark with Kheldian's but if you can get defense cap I can say it really makes the game 100 times easier.
I just do not know if the IO set bonuses slotted in other forms if they carry over ?
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Ya I don't know either.. I think I am stuck between solo and team. I am not sure there is a build that will work well solo but I am certain that there is one that can work with a team. I think it's coming down to what role I want to play.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by plainguy
I'm a bit in the dark with Kheldian's but if you can get defense cap I can say it really makes the game 100 times easier.
I just do not know if the IO set bonuses slotted in other forms if they carry over ? |
They carry over.
Personally, I don't think the sacrifices you'd need to get to softcap defense would be worthwhile on a Warshade, but YMMV. I'd probably be more inclined to go after a high-recharge build to get perma-Eclipse as the Resistance is more than enough survivability for me and I wouldn't want to give up the damage output I suspect I'd have to do in order to get my defense numbers up.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
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Quote:
I have just been playing around for the last hour with mids and I have to agree with you..
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Originally Posted by Justaris
They carry over.
Personally, I don't think the sacrifices you'd need to get to softcap defense would be worthwhile on a Warshade, but YMMV. I'd probably be more inclined to go after a high-recharge build to get perma-Eclipse as the Resistance is more than enough survivability for me and I wouldn't want to give up the damage output I suspect I'd have to do in order to get my defense numbers up. |
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Quote:
It should; stygian circle heals you for 80% of your health off of one defeated opponent, unslotted. Are you monitoring your resistances to make sure you stay at that 85% cap? There is only a 2.5% difference in amount of damage you take when you are softcapped vs at 85% resistance. That is really, really tiny. Is the softcapped character you are comparing to a tank/brute/scrapper? Because you may be feeling a difference in total hp.| Stygian Circle works good if you kill someone but its not going to give you enough health from one body as you get beat up by the mob. |
Hold Everything! I think I just spotted your problem. You don't have Dark Extraction. This is possibly your largest source of damage if you don't take nova form, especially at recharge levels that let you keep three out. Defeating enemies twice as fast or more will give you more fodder for Stygian Circle, and should alleviate at least some of our survival problems.
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The pets die pretty quickly under AE farm conditions with multiple ambushes so I can see someone tailoring a build without the pets. But for average game play they help out quite a bit.
Going back to the AE farm situation I am going to guess that the OP is dying because he doesn't really have steady AoE chain to make SC fodder. Orbiting death and dark detonation isn't enough to quickly cut through mobs and unchain essence isn't spammable. I would imagine that he'd get a lot better results going flying resist capped nova blaster dropping down occasionally for SC/eclipse refuel on that AE rather than the current setup.
Cutting back on Recharge would compromise your surviivability because Eclipse is up less often.
Cutting back on damage compromises your surviviability because you get less SC fodder.
I'd try the Kinetic Dampener temp power and see if that gives you the edge you need, even if you keep it up only for the alpha from each group. Its 16% S/L Defence, enough to dull the damage between the first strike and your first feed with Stygian Circle. If it seems like a good start, you could maybe swap in a few Kinetic Combats to your melee attacks instead of Crushing Impacts, only a 5% recharge loss per set.
Short answer to the OP question: Yes. Def is worth it on a humanform warshade, however softcap is overkill, and I would suggest numbers around 19-20% def range.
Does not sound like a lot, but when paired with 85% res to all it makes a world of difference.
I would highly recommend picking up dark extraction as was already pointed out, and would argue that one of the features of warshades that puts them ahead of peacebringers in PvE is the pet.
Sunless mire transfers over to pets, and you can really see a huge difference in damage with even one out.
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Various others.
@debtlover
Quote:
How do you figure it's a difference of 2.5%?|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
It should; stygian circle heals you for 80% of your health off of one defeated opponent, unslotted. Are you monitoring your resistances to make sure you stay at that 85% cap? There is only a 2.5% difference in amount of damage you take when you are softcapped vs at 85% resistance. That is really, really tiny. Is the softcapped character you are comparing to a tank/brute/scrapper? Because you may be feeling a difference in total hp.
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If against most content you're hit 50% of the time, softcapped defense means you are hit 5% of the time, taking 10% of the damage you normally would.
Capped at 85% resists means you take 15% damage.
So there's a difference of 5% of the original, undefended, unresisted damage, or more relevant, you take 50% more damage (15% instead of 10%) than you would with defense.
It's much bigger than 2.5%.
OP: If you're tailoring your missions to farm, and not killing fast enough to continually have a purple or two active, it sounds to me like you need to kill faster. The lack of Soul Extraction probably is a problem there.
If you can get perma-eclipse, have your attacks well slotted, then any defense you can add after that would be worth it, and it would be gravy.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
I will say that on my perma-eclipse warshade I sometimes feel very squishy compared to my scrappers, brute, stalker, widows.... and even my trollers, dominators, and corruptors.... Therefore, if I could figure out a high recharge build with decent power slotting and decent defense numbers I would go after it in a heartbeat.
The difference is that almost all of those main I/O'd characters have softcapped defenses + their own tricks and my warshade is pure resistance with no mez protection, slow resistance, or endurance drain protection and middle of the road HP. Then you get hit with things like:
"I can't stay in dwarf b/c I have no end but I can't get end b/c I have no breakfrees and I can't get breakfrees b/c I can't kill anything without end while being held"
or
"I see you and I'm going to really kill you if my darn attacks would recharge... or that hold you keep spewing at me would finally miss and I could switch to another form"
Also, the warshade is an AoE monster, drawing alot of return fire quickly, and 15%+15%+15%+15%.... starts adding up quickly whereas 100%+miss+miss+miss+dodge+.... gives you time to do nasty things.
All that said, I like the warshade AT and can't wait to see what incarnate content will do for the AT and I'll keep looking for a decent +rech/+defense build that isn't a boatload of purples and pvp I/Os.
Quote:
I was calculating from the viewpoint of enemy attacks as 100%. Since your standard minion has only 50% tohit, only 50% of their original (100%) damage gets through, so you take 15%*50%=7.5% after resistance vs 5% at softcap. If you calculate the 50% tohit of standard mobs as 100% of damage as is frequently done then, yes, the difference is now 15% after resistance vs 10% at softcap. In either calculation 85% resistance takes 1.5 times the damage that the softcap takes, which is probably how I should have stated it originally. |
Originally Posted by Gilia
How do you figure it's a difference of 2.5%?
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Of course, with new mobs at 64% tohit (which I think we may see a lot more of in new content), the relative value of 85% resistance vs 45% def would change substantially...
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Quote:
Oh, I gotcha.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
I was calculating from the viewpoint of enemy attacks as 100%. Since your standard minion has only 50% tohit, only 50% of their original (100%) damage gets through, so you take 15%*50%=7.5% after resistance vs 5% at softcap. If you calculate the 50% tohit of standard mobs as 100% of damage as is frequently done then, yes, the difference is now 15% after resistance vs 10% at softcap. In either calculation 85% resistance takes 1.5 times the damage that the softcap takes, which is probably how I should have stated it originally.
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Yeah the increase in 50%, however you slice it, has got to be the most relevant way to put it, at least in regards to farming. Being able to take on 2/3s the mobs your soft capped friends can is a pretty significant difference.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
It is not so difficult on a high end build to get 17% or so defense, which is the point where the discrepancy evens out against normal mobs I think (although this is not factoring in the excellent healing abilities of the shade, which lowers that discrepancy in anything but an AV fight).
I don't know though, I have a couple of softcapped characters myself: dm/shield scrapper, elec/nin stalker, and something else I can't remember softcapped to s/l. Both of the first two have really good heals to layer with the defense, as well as some s/l resistance. The warshade still tends to outsurvive them in any situation outside of massive endurance drain or protracted one-on-one's against EB's after I've defeated all fodder. Defense debuffs aren't a big deal for the shade, and neither are resistance debuffs actually; the nature of eclipse usually means I have plenty more than 85% resist stocked up so it takes several -res effects before I see a difference.
Both the shade and the stalker have phasing powers which can help in a really bad situation. In fact, I tend to prefer those two for the ITF over the Shield Scrapper because they deal with the -def much better.
There are only two other things I can think of that help the shade: mez from gravitic emanation and gravity well (which the OP has), and the hefty amounts of -rech/slow. Perhaps in human form the OP does not get much out of the -rech/slow as the main source would be dark detonation, while a triformer can volley off several AoE's from nova stacking those debuffs effectively. A quick look at mids tells me Nova Detonation's -rech lasts 10 seconds and Nova Emanation's lasts 8 seconds, but the ones in Human Detonation and Sunless mire last only 6 seconds.
My last idea for the OP is to grab Essence Drain. It is generally a pretty terrible power, but, because you don't have the Dwarf heal and have trouble leveraging Stygian at the right times, this may be a small help to you. Frankenslot it for max heal and good rech/acc/dmg. It's a 20% heal fully enhanced, maybe at every 7 seconds with your recharge levels.
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Pretty sure the extracted essences would help a ton with recharge/slow on an entire mob. They are basically nova form with slightly less damage slotted up. They can use the purple proc which affects all, and you will have 3 with a less expensive recharge build (not perma-hasten). Grab the presence pool and let them go to town in human form.
I have been playing around with my human\WS now for a number of days.. repec'd 2 times already. I have been wondering if adding Def is worth it becasue in my previous builds I have not done anything with def. Sorry to say but even with 85% res I am really missing the defence in certain situations as I still end up dead. I figure that I would be better in a team situation but I have been doing missions on my own as of late.
It seems clear to me that this toon is best suited to mobs. But I have had a hard time surviving the mob when I run out of purples in the mission. Its odd.. I need the mob but I can't always kill the mob to get what I need. Anyway I need some help here with my Human/WS. So with defence being harder to come by it should I go out of my way to add it in even if I can only get one position higher?
Here is the build I think I want to use but do I really need what I have? Some help would be nice.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.81
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Bjornson: Level 50 Science Warshade
Primary Power Set: Umbral Blast
Secondary Power Set: Umbral Aura
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Ebon Eye -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(7), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 1: Absorption -- Aegis-ResDam(A), ImpSkn-Status(7), Aegis-Psi/Status(29)
Level 2: Gravity Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(3), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), TtmC'tng-EndRdx(37), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(46), TtmC'tng-EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 4: Orbiting Death -- Oblit-Acc/Rchg(A), Oblit-Dmg(5), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(5), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Oblit-%Dam(40)
Level 6: Shadow Blast -- Apoc-Dmg(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(15), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(27), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(34)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 10: Penumbral Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(11), TtmC'tng-EndRdx(11), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(36), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37), TtmC'tng-EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 12: Sunless Mire -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(13), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(13), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Oblit-%Dam(36)
Level 14: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Dark Detonation -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(17), Posi-Dmg/Rng(21), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), FrcFbk-Rechg%(36)
Level 18: Shadow Cloak -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(23), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 20: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 22: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 24: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-End%(25), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(25), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(43), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(46)
Level 26: Twilight Shield -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-EndRdx(27), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(39)
Level 28: Gravity Well -- Hectmb-Dmg(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(31), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(31), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(34)
Level 30: Stygian Circle -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Unchain Essence -- Ragnrk-Dmg(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(33), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(33), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(34)
Level 35: Tough -- ImpSkn-Status(A)
Level 38: Gravitic Emanation -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(39), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Posi-Dmg/Rng(48)
Level 41: Inky Aspect -- Amaze-Stun(A), Amaze-Stun/Rchg(42), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg(42), Amaze-Acc/Rchg(42), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun(43)
Level 44: Eclipse -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 47: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(48), Ksmt-ToHit+(48)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Winter-ResSlow(50), Zephyr-ResKB(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Dark Sustenance
Level 1: Shadow Step -- Zephyr-ResKB(A)
Level 10: Shadow Recall -- Zephyr-ResKB(A)
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