No one know?
It doesn't cost a lot to be nice and reply to tells
Less then 20 minutes between posts? 
Lack of patience typically gets you no answer.
Yes, you can run Weave with Granite. Question for most would be why would you bother? Granite alone is extremely tough and hard to kill. Adding in Weave would probably be considered overkill on that.
I can see using Tough/Weave out of Granite armor, but as always YMMV.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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cheers for reply,not for the critical bit tho :P i don't consider soft capping a granite over kill myself if it means just using 1 more power.
It doesn't cost a lot to be nice and reply to tells
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Soft capping defense provides far more mitigation than not doing so, especially on a Granite tanker. Let's say you follow the above poster's advice and only run Granite for defense. That puts you at a max of 35% without set bonuses. This means 15% of the hits will get through, or 30% of an even-level minion's damage will get through and have to be mitigated by resistance. If you do get to 45% defense, only 10% of a minion's damage will have to be reduced by resistance. Would you really want to take THREE TIMES the damage, when it isn't hard to soft cap?|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Less then 20 minutes between posts?
Lack of patience typically gets you no answer. Yes, you can run Weave with Granite. Question for most would be why would you bother? Granite alone is extremely tough and hard to kill. Adding in Weave would probably be considered overkill on that. I can see using Tough/Weave out of Granite armor, but as always YMMV. |
Here's how:
Granite provides around 30% defense after slotting. Weave adds another 7%. A steadfast protection 3% defense should put you at over 40% after all of that. The rest can be fixed with one or two set bonuses, or by running Maneuvers.
Syntax, you do make some interesting points, but I'd like to add a few things.
A fully ED capped Stone Tank, without any set bonuses can be running at around 79% plus resistance to everything except psi. So the 30% of an even con minion's damage that you mentioned needing to be resisted translates into around 6.3% of an even con minion's damage. IF it's S/L that becomes 3%. Yes, getting soft capped would improve those numbers. Dropping everything but psi down to 2.1% of an even con minion's damage, and 1% of s/l. So, you'd get an amazing savings of 4.2% vs non-psi attacks and 2% vs. s/l attacks. 
(now admittedly my math might be off, but I think I'm close.)
Now, consider the following: Tough does you absolutely no good while in Granite as you're hard capped at 90% to S/L resistance easily. So you'd need to take two choices: Boxing/Kick and Tough to get to Weave, which unless you plan on running outside of Granite seems a waste of power choices. Although I rarely feel Maneuver's is a good choice for tanks I think it's the better choice with Granite, and with IO sets you CAN get S/L defense soft capped, and with work probably E/NE as well.
As always YMMV.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I may as well post a build I was working on for a friend. This is far from complete, but shows how to achieve soft capped defenses using Weave and Maneuvers. In this build, Tough is a mule for other set bonuses. The build also has 29.9% Psi defense and enough run speed to not feel slow when Rooted is off. I usually leave Rooted off until I think I may need the regeneration.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1237;632;1264;HEX;| |78DA9D534B6F125118BD3050A00C05A48457A10F8A85D48C2571E16361D4D6C4A42| |4A412572A19EB1588388333A3826EFC01AE5CE8CA44A37DE83F30FE151F0BD7468D| |BAC6EF71CBA2EE9C30E7CC9CF9BE73EF3DF7D218AEEB423C3E2B7CFA85BEE9BAED9| |669DD964EB871CF33BD9E6D89901022CF627B5DDE92962B8DCB9E6DC9F639E78EED| |64D4A786EC4B699C373DAF0F5F863279C9EA4A475A9E71F070A469DB7DA3057503D| |B61739DA48B3DCF92AE1B532F9DAED7B33A717ADB94E64DE9B8DDDE20B531E86D1B| |1B96743AA376C3743DE98CB230B51ADC1F23003EB8C538284EC0435DF8EB4C19A0A| |20854815644609968AA46F40DBBE81AC30F2EF129A26C40F191F21D144D291A299F| |4109AAB182F7050E32F580283C641A11E90F89128F88BE405748F984C8E707283C8| |1B11671FC58346D330D88F4BB4415688BAACE2875AE801263C51FCB69583493672A| |1005A120CE5314716A098192544A929430282956FCA9E734D2EC53A667443E2848A| |B71D3D4A2819251E36638D02C27993DCAF142418E3DB55C9AF2CF279852447311AA| |FB05EB2EB051B0C0112E7284658EB0CC119639C2658E3009EE45E55E64F712BB97D| |8BDC4EE5FC17D5E6DD03C4F7381F77DA1C2C4CD8BB34CECF11BBA96D4729768B97F| |40A928A542CA4B48B7AA02A8EE534AB55DA6B744EF605B567968DF2A877A8C437D0| |5AD865AB2F19AD673FC0DD30ED32E517D8F699FE8274C618DBB7C6B7B6454DF219A| |0B1C3EBB9BFF28CDC0E1D35C0B4CFE27E3486272B2FFF77AAF1F0C19D99A066C213| |411AE205C45B886701DC144B881B08D30FE30E98E9FC4799D42388D7006210DF313| |4FB03284C73F8AA023C4106610E208098414421EE105C2F82F52D30D68| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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If you are built for some recovery, you could easily skip Stone Skin for Tough. Just the Steadfast IO in Tough + Granite will cap your S/L resists. You save that power pick you mentioned that way.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Now, consider the following: Tough does you absolutely no good while in Granite as you're hard capped at 90% to S/L resistance easily. So you'd need to take two choices: Boxing/Kick and Tough to get to Weave, which unless you plan on running outside of Granite seems a waste of power choices.
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Maneuvers isn't a bad idea though! That'd be easier on the blue bar for sure.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Both of the previous poster make valid points, and as I've said before, softcapping is VERY powerful when it comes to boosting survivability. It is however, usually overkill. If you are fighting AVs solo (which a granite tank shouldn't be doing) then softcapped defense is probably going to be needed for them, but for the other 95% of the game, it's just overkill. Especially on a granite with all its resists. If you want the character to be the tankiest tank around and not die from anything (minus psi, which can be semi covered by sets) then sure, cap the defense and enjoy your immortality.
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People who don't frequent these forums may be taken off guard by how slow it moves. On most of the other forums I've been on a thread can jump pages within 20 minutes. The slowness here still irritates me even though I've gotten used to it, but hey, that means that people are playing the game instead of yakking about it.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Less then 20 minutes between posts?
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No offense intended, it's just that reactions like that are a pet peeve of mine.
Chuckle. Compared to other reactions I've seen to such quick posts I thought my response was pretty understated. 
I'm sorry you felt it may have been "reactionary".
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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What no one seems to have brought up in this thread is that no matter whether you are soft capped or not, whether it matters or not, and what powers and sets you did or did not use to do it, ONE THING REMAINS:|
Originally Posted by rad
According to mids you can run weave at same time as granite is this true?Handy for reaching soft cap
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You're still playing a Stone tank and it's gonna be no fun no matter how much defense you have.
But just for a moment let's pretend: What the hell is killing you THROUGH GRANITE that won't STILL kill you with soft capped defense?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Like I said, it's not you, it's just that people stating that annoy me. You did respond in a nicer manner than I usually see.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Chuckle. Compared to other reactions I've seen to such quick posts I thought my response was pretty understated.
I'm sorry you felt it may have been "reactionary". |
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Things where softcapping has verifiably made a difference for me:|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
But just for a moment let's pretend: What the hell is killing you THROUGH GRANITE that won't STILL kill you with soft capped defense?
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1) In the ITF, a failed attempt to fight the computer, Romulus, and Requiem at the same time. The rest of the team wiped, and I was sitting there poking at the computer with two archivillains and 14 bosses pounding on me, with another ten bosses waiting to take down anyone who tried to help me. My health bar got a lot more stable after a teammate got within range long enough to hit me with a Mystic Fortune defense buff.
2) Pulling a half-dozen Devouring Earth monsters to Portal Court, then holding them there for half an hour. Weave was the difference between Earth's Embrace having enough time to recharge, and having to use the occasional inspiration. (Measured a different way, it's the difference between four DE monsters and six DE monsters.)
I'm sure there have been others, but since I normally have Weave running, I haven't noticed them.
I would try to do it with set bonuses first. Weave is a lot of powers to invest.
And keep praying for a change to Granite.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Going through my Stone/Stone build I was able to soft cap S/L/E/N and get F/C to 40% without using Tough/Weave and using Maneuvers. I'm sure if I worked at it harder I could probably get F/C soft capped as well. Weave isn't necessary to get there. You can certainly go that route if you feel it works for you.
You can also go the route Gilia mentioned and not grab Stone Skin.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Quote:
Wait, wait, wait. What were you doing pulling DE monsters to Portal Court? Were you EoE farming, or just griefing?
| 2) Pulling a half-dozen Devouring Earth monsters to Portal Court, then holding them there for half an hour. Weave was the difference between Earth's Embrace having enough time to recharge, and having to use the occasional inspiration. (Measured a different way, it's the difference between four DE monsters and six DE monsters.) |
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One thing you're forgetting, with resistance, you still take damage.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Syntax, you do make some interesting points, but I'd like to add a few things.
A fully ED capped Stone Tank, without any set bonuses can be running at around 79% plus resistance to everything except psi. |
With defense, and a miss, you take ZERO.
Over time, a defense-capped tank takes less damage (overall) than a tank with less than defense cap and higher resistance.
Now, consider the following: Tough does you absolutely no good while in Granite as you're hard capped at 90% to S/L resistance easily.[/quote]
But tough can be used as a single-slot power for nifty things like your Steadfast Unique. Freeing a slot elsewhere.
It's essentially a tradeoff between paying out insane amounts of inf for specific IO sets to increase your defense or two power choices.
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So you'd need to take two choices: Boxing/Kick and Tough to get to Weave, which unless you plan on running outside of Granite seems a waste of power choices. Although I rarely feel Maneuver's is a good choice for tanks I think it's the better choice with Granite, and with IO sets you CAN get S/L defense soft capped, and with work probably E/NE as well. As always YMMV. |
On my Stone/Fire tank, I'm defense capped to all forms of typed damage (plus a bit). Doing so, I've relied on a mixture of set bonuses and Weave. Additionally, look at the defense numbers for Maneuvers and then look at Weave's again.
And I still have several powers that are simply slotted with common IOs at the moment. These melee powers can take sets that will boost my recharge and accuracy, further offsetting the negative issues of Granite.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Don't forget that Weave adds to your Psionic defense as well. Don't expect to get anywhere near 30% Psi defense without Weave in your build.
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Minerals says Hi!|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Don't forget that Weave adds to your Psionic defense as well. Don't expect to get anywhere near 30% Psi defense without Weave in your build.
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I hope that someday they make Granite work with the other shields and nerf it so that having it on brings you to current granite numbers, or thereabouts, with all the other shields running.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Then you have the problem of having no weakness to psionic, which is part of the balancing factor of Granite.
| I hope that someday they make Granite work with the other shields and nerf it so that having it on brings you to current granite numbers, or thereabouts, with all the other shields running. |
I'm not forgetting that with resistance you still take damage. But going from 35% defense, 90% S/L resist and 79% E/N/F/C resist to 45%+ defense with those same resists isn't that dramatic for a Stone Armor tank.
Again, if my math is correct in my earlier post, on average out of every 100 points of S/L damage you'd drop from taking 3 points of damage down to 1 point of damage. For every 100 points of E/N/F/C you'd drop from taking 6.3 pts of damage to 2.1 pts of damage. If I'm standing in the middle of Monster Island taking on 3 or 4 GMs solo, then yes, I'd probably want that extra 10% defense.
Is it helpful? Certainly.
Is it needed in most situations? Probably not.
Does it work for you? Obviously yes. 
Is it wrong to push towards the soft cap with Tough/Weave? No, but I've never said that it was wrong. I do think Tough/Weave is extremely helpful with other Armor sets, just not as much for a tank IN Granite armor. If you're planning on running outside of Granite, then yes those power choices can be quite helpful.
Others, like yourself do think Tough and Weave are useful and have on occasion use them in different ways.
As always YMMV.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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The balancing factor would be lack of Endurance management, and detriment to Damage and Recharge and Movement. It doesn't Also need the Psi penalty.|
Originally Posted by Tidbit Jr.
Then you have the problem of having no weakness to psionic, which is part of the balancing factor of Granite.
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Like I said before, being Rooted in Granite Armor sucks. It's no fun. That's why it needs a buff. Removing the Psi penalty would be Part of that buff.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Neither. Like I said, I pulled them there, then held them for half an hour. Once I was done, I pulled them back to the beach and dropped aggro, at which point they ran back to Monster Island. At no point did I lose control of them, and at no point was anybody forced to fight them.
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Originally Posted by Tidbit Jr.
Wait, wait, wait. What were you doing pulling DE monsters to Portal Court? Were you EoE farming, or just griefing?
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My Stone Tanker herded up all the DE monsters on one of the smaller islands in Peregrine with just Granite and Rooted slotted with SOs. Yeah, not being soft-capped with a huge amount of resistance means you take damage, but the regeneration from Rooted, plus Earth's Embrace and the occasional inspiration were plenty to survive until I got bored and left.
Just wanted to point out that the different between non-soft-capped Granite and soft-capped Granite is the different between being able to tank insanely well and being able to tank incredibly insanely well.
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According to mids you can run weave at same time as granite is this true?Handy for reaching soft cap
It doesn't cost a lot to be nice and reply to tells