Gilia
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Quote:LOLOriginally Posted by Another_Fan
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...domitable_Will
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...persion_Bubble
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Domination#Domination
So that would make corrupters, defenders, controllers, and dominators all ATs that have built in ways of not being mezzed or getting out of mezz.
You think all Corruptors take /Sonic or /Traps? You realize how few have Indomitable Will? Read your links. Seriously. The dispersion powers guard against Hold, Immobilize, and Disorient. IW's recharge is 360 vs a 90 second duration and it only adds Fear to the list.
Perma-Doms are well covered. With that exception, FEW builds of the support ATs have any mez protection, and even then it's gimp compared to the melee ATs.
ALL Blasters can fire through ALL mez. PERIOD.
lol... it's just so simple and you don't get it... even citing sources you clearly don't understand hahaha... -
Quote:Plant also gets sleep if you want it...Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Mind isn't really all 'hard' controls. The two major 'every-spawn' controls are both soft-ish - fear and sleep. Sure you have total dom and mass confusion for hard controls, but those aren't what you're using every time you roll up to a group of baddies.
If you want lots of hard control, I'd go with plant. Seeds of confusion is basically the best mez in the game, and it's a lot harder of a mez than sleep or fear. Plant/fire is a really great combo.
It kind of depends on the build. A Mind Dom w/perma Dom pre-Hasten PLUS Hasten is going to Mass Confusion or Total Domination every mob. I've done several TFs with a perma-Dom plant there beside my mind, and their hard controls aren't noticeable most of the time. An awesome exception is when on an ITF the bosses give mez protection. Then Seeds+Mass Confusion break through anyway. (It's mag 10 protection, so with dom it's just barely beaten out by the combined mag 12)
For a first Dom or one who will put the recharge off considerably I think it comes down to team vs solo. Plant is definitely going to outshine on a team, with Seeds of Confusion, but if you solo against small mobs, Mind/ will rock because its first 4 powers are all ST and fast recharging.
If it was a cheap build without hard controls, I would say Ice/. Sounds strange, I know. Ice/ benefits the least from Domination, so perma-Dom isn't as big of a difference. At the opposite end, Mind/ benefits the most because all their powers (besides levitate) have a mez component. No pets there, etc.
Mind/ and Plant/ are both staples though. Both work really well, and that's why they're just so darn popular. -
Quote:Actually, Claws just understands what we've tried explaining in this thread a few times. Different ATs have different pro's and con's, shine in different circumstances, and do poorly in others, etc etc.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
In my opinion, that is exactly where Scrappers are now.
In the comics, great power comes with great responsibility. Tankers have been burdened with being responsible for aggro and being the front line, usually alone. I guess the power got lost in the mail. If merely surviving is your definition of power, Hibernate and Phase Shift are the most powerful things in the game..
Tankers do more than just survive. Do you really not get that? -
Quote:There's a whole 'nother thread where Another_Troll is holding up his ignorance-based argument despite being bombarded with more than a hundred posts that succinctly and simply show why he's wrong. There's no reason to start trying to show him any sense here.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Except for the part that where my blasters can ATTACK WHILE Mezzed: usually killing, stunning, or kbing what mezzed them, or I don't know . . . pop a break free.
Edit: It's worth noting that he actually just doesn't respond when it's pointed out that he put words in another person's mouth or is flat wrong about a subject. He nit picks at some subjective details then tries to spin that back to his initial argument. It's kind of like when a mother and her child are arguing. The mother explains as best she can why the child can't go out after dark and the child says "but I want to!" and the mother said "you can't because I said no." Then the child latches on to the "I said no" part and claims it's not fair. That's because the child's memory is so short and his ability to rationalize is so poor that he doesn't even realize that the mother already gave a full explanation before having said "I said no." The child doesn't get that it is fair, because the child's not as smart as the mother. -
Quote:Wow... another argument using a vague example with no explanation whatsoever. No concrete examples, no enumerated list, just a poorly marked position devoid of any evidence or support. Oh what do you know, it also lacks any relevance or a clear understanding of the discussion at hand. All it does is take a contradictory position, and nothing more. That's what we call in the business "trolling."Originally Posted by Another_Fan
LOL, you should go through the list of things that forum goers have either had a wrong consensus on or have had sizable minorities that were just wrong.
There's a word for arguments like this, and most that Another_Troll has provided. It begins with a bovine animal and ends with explicative.
Grow up. Seriously.
It's bad enough having one person per thread who babbles and whines incessantly without actually understanding basic game mechanics or how to debate a relatively simple subject. I find it interesting based on the next two posts of Another_Troll that he doesn't even agree with JB. How much ignorance and arrogance has to be mustered to take a position that no one else in the same context has taken? That must be awful lonely...
Just to clarify, even though I know you probably won't have made it this far through the post before responding with more ignorance, the point was YOU should have provided the so-called list if you wanted to be taken even the slightest bit seriously. I know of a few myths that were commonly believed, and a few more that still are, yet THOSE myths can be debunked by presenting the math which the game mechanics follow. When a minority believes a myth that's just as readily debunked, it's that much more pathetic when they continue with this trolling tantrum-style arguing and hold that position. -
Okay round 2. I've edited this post a lot because I made a mistake the first time.
Is there supposed to be another attack or two in here, or is this just where you're at at the moment? You're missing 2 of the 3 attacks for Sweep Combo (10k cuts and Typhoon).
With just those 4 attacks, the best I think you're going to do is this:
BF>SS>AB>PS>AB>BF>SS>AB>PS>AB>Repeat
AB is awesome in this setup because it's got very high DPA for it's low recharge.
I put that at 164 DPS. It may go a wee bit higher on the second "Repeat" because of a little bit of BF overlap. It's not much higher though. That is without criticals. With them, you're talking 172 DPS vs minions, and 180 DPS vs Lts+.
Btw, I assumed 95% from damage enhancements.
I can send you the spreadsheet I used, but I'm not super duper at this. Someone who's great at attack chains and comes along might be able to show you a more concise chart. -
Quote:Perma-triple Rage would require 500% recharge to get the recharge time down to 40 seconds. That's maxed out on the ED cap and then maxed out global recharge (~100%+400%). It's not going to be possible alone. Door stacking a couple speed boosts maybe.Originally Posted by Atago
And the DPS will not increase much, in some Cases will drop cause 10secs of the triplestack will be eaten by the Ragecrash and your Rage crashs in shorter Periods. If you don't really have an incredible Recharge it's better that Rage starts exactly after the Crash. For Example 54secs Doublerage then 10Secs Crash and THEN near the end of the Crash the next Rage starts. If you have let's say 5 sec more recharge Rage starts at the beginning of the Crash and 10sec of it are wasted.
Even though this scenario is almost never going to come up, let's imagine it did.
You could expect these kind of effect damage modifiers:
Let's assume you're in the mix and you have a "normal scrapper lock rage" which is like 120%. That's well over the average, but for the sake of a single fight let's do it anyway.
Base * (1 + Enhancements + Fury + Rage)
No Rage: .75 * (1+.95+1.20+0)=2.36
1 Rage: .75 * (1+.95+1.20+0.8)=2.96
2 Rage: .75 * (1+.95+1.20+1.6)=3.56
3 Rage: .75 * (1+.95+1.20+2.4)=4.16
Then consider downtime (if didn't use temp powers, and kept on scrapper locking the whole time). With 1 Rage it's 1/12th of the time, with 2 it's 1/6th, and with 3, it's 1/4th (10 seconds of the 120,60,or 40 recharge).
So then you have
No rage = 2.36
1 Rage = 2.71
2 Rage = 2.96
3 Rage = 3.12
Now the reality is with rage crashing so much more often with 2 or 3 Rage, your fury will not be as easily maintained (unless you are VERY effectively aggro managing...) If we used a lower Fury value between each scenario, the jump in damage would be a bigger proportion, but if we used the reality (that average Fury would be highest with no rage and lowest with 3 rage), the gaps would shrink. Unfortunately Fury calculations are much MUCH more complicated, and would depend on number of enemies, if they're effected by -recharge, held, etc.
What we can know for sure is stacking Rage helps, but the proportion of damage when considering crashes is NOT game breaking. Even perma double will not add so much damage that you all of a sudden tower above other Brutes. Those other Brutes are probably maintaining Fury while not having crashes from their Build Up powers.
There's other things to consider, of course. Like if you Foot stomp + AoE from EPP while 2 or 3 raged then while it crashes those are recharging, your effective drop in DPS isn't going to be as much. The flip side of that is if you accidentally use Foot Stomp right as it crashes, your DPS will seriously drop. I digress, Rage and Double Rage both help, though not in a game breaking fashion, and perma Triple Rage just isn't feasible. -
Quote:Yes, I picked up on the Crab Mentality from JB. I don't know how else one person could argue with a dozen others and still have no clue how off his reasoning is. I mean it's very possible IRL that the 12 would be wrong and the 1 be right, but this is a case where we all share the same context. We're all forum goers playing the same game with the same exact data available to us. The chance that the slim minority is going to be right is minuscule.Originally Posted by AstaticOne
Hmm, anyone else detecting some Crab Mentality/Jante Law/Tall Poppy Syndrome/etc...?
Of course the SAME thing is happening on the Blaster forum right now... one (occasionally two) are doing a tantrum style argument against more than a dozen others. That's just the way it goes. Some people will never understand, even things that are simple and common sense.
This repeated "if Scrappers can do it, Tankers should be able to do it too!" nonsense isn't much of a platform. -
Quote:Talk about some cognitive dissonance. YOU invoked the example of soloing AVs as an example of imbalance.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Anyone trying to justify soloing AVs and Pylons intended for raid teams doesn't get to comment on game balance. Period.
Maybe I can boil it down to be a little more simple.Quote:The "concept" is that the devs let some ATs get away with anything, get to be generally better in every way that matters, get to solo best and get the same rewards on teams as everyone else and get to start a team like anyone else.
I don't want to "get" that concept because it's not balanced or fair.
The game, while it can appear very repetitive, consists of different levels, zones, ATs, powersets, difficulty levels, team dynamics, skill levels, investment in build, and other variables which all change.
The game is not balanced around one set of circumstance. You keep bringing up the same scenario or two over and over and claiming it's not fair because the melee classes don't all perform the same. No, sorry, but soloing AVs is not "better in every way."
Some ATs level faster. Maybe that's what's fun for you. So you play an AT whose damage modifier starts very high and gets a monstrous damage boost from its inherent right off the bat.
Perhaps you prefer to solo and want nothing to do with steam rolling teams, so you play a stealthy character who can take down small mobs faster than anyone else... even though they can't steam roll.
Perhaps you want to solo AVs as fast as possible.
Perhaps you want to play damage mitigation for small teams. There's ATs for that.
You honestly don't think it's fair that toons that can solo are rewarded equally in teaming? Yeesh... That really doesn't deserve to be dignified with a response but *sigh* ... That's the game's culture anyway. As reference by a few posters previously, support is often more sought after in PuGs. That's the extra reward. -
Quote:This is EXACTLY what Bill meant by you not understanding game balance.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No, it's not balanced one bit.
If it was balanced, Scapppers wouldn't be able to obtain the survivability needed to solo an AV, nor would Tankers be able to muster the damage needed to.
Scrappers being able to muster the damage AND survivability to solo AVs, and (provided there's even Tankers capable of soloing AVs at all) doing it faster than a Tanker isn't balanced. It favours the Scrapper completely.
Bill, you're the biggest hypocrite on these boards. You got your cake and ate it too, and you mock anyone who asks the devs for some..
The game is NOT balanced around AVs. The notion that it is makes me wonder what game you're actually playing.
Scrappers can solo an AV faster so the games not balanced? Oh brother.
A) The game's not balanced around IO's.
B) The game isn't balanced around fringe challenges which the vast majority of characters wouldn't stand a chance with.
C) The ATs are NOT balanced so EVERY AT does the SAME thing at the SAME rate. If you think Scrappers being able to solo and AV quicker than Tankers means Tankers need a damage boost to be "balanced" you might want to consider an MMO with homogenized classes. That isn't the case here. It never has been. It never will be.
Like Bill said, it's a pre-school concept. You already shot your case into a million pieces and made it clear that you don't get the concept. -
Quote:I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The deck is stacked against Tankers because in this game, more survivability is easy to build for from a variety of sources and doesn't really require a reciprocating loss of damage. Scrappers and Brutes are very close to the optimal survivability they'd ever need and can get more if they want.
Survivability has diminishing returns. Increasing survivability is increasingly less usefull and will aid you in a smaller and smaller number of situations. On the other hand, returns on more damage does not diminish nearly as sharply; increasing levels of damage will contintue to be usefull until you get to the point where you're one-shotting GMs.
What I was trying to get at before, and I think what others are saying in clearer terms, that you don't seem to realize is this: Tankers aren't SUPPOSED to be rated by the same terms Brutes are.
Brutes are an excellent balance of damage, aggro management, and survivability. For Tanker's it's all slanted to the latter 2. Yes, that's great if a Brute can survive everything on the TF... especially if we have 8 Brutes/Scrappers doing the same. However, if a team layout calls for aggro management, which can be done by Tanking, the Tank will do better. Period. Their role is not diminished by lack of damage. That is not the role.
The second paragraph I quoted, I'm not sure if it was serious. Survivability is the only factor that does not diminish... Take the other extreme, a Blaster, just because her damage is tapped out doesn't mean they can go toe to toe with a Pylon. A Brute with massive AoE who doesn't hold aggro worth spit might soon find herself alone. Without survivability, she then finds herself faceplanted.
I actually don't quite understand the point of this vague idealogical debate. Tankers can (and do) what they're supposed to. So do Brutes and so do Scrappers. In my opinion the only AT that could seriously use a relevancy boost is Peacebringers. That's only because of the sick things Warshades can do. When a Warshade outsurvives and outdamages Scrappers or Brutes, do you consider them to be obsolete? Nonsense. -
Quote:If you don't go for softcapped defense with IO's, Soul Mastery is a wonderful direction to go. Darkest Night is a -tohit toggle that effectively stacks with your defenses. At least, if anyone in range of it is attacking you.Originally Posted by Krogoth
I personally love Soul Mastery: Gloom and Darkest Night.
It's not a bad idea even if you get the defense, because that with your Tactical Training Maneuvers you'll be increasing the whole team's survivability.
On my Crab I went for Mace Mastery to stack Web Envelope with Wide Area Web Grenade and so the pet matched my other pets. Based on your build, for the Crab I'm inclined to recommend Mu, because it has 2 targeted AoE attacks, which work well when you're in the mix melee style. Soul has 1 though, so if the first part sounds appealing go for that. -
Quote:With improper power picks you can hit 45% with *NO* IOs. Deflection, Battle Agility, Phalanx Fighting, Weave, Combat Jumping, Hover/Stealth, Maneuvers = 45% to all positions.Originally Posted by mauk2
With proper power selection, tanker shield defense can reach 40 percent vs all with no sets at all. With I19 I'm positive you can hit 45+ without hurting yourself.
That's improper because it'd be excessive of course.
Your goal should be EXACTLY 45% for Ranged, Melee, and AoE. Anything more will only come in handy against defense debuffs, enemies with inherent +ToHit(very very rare), and +6 enemies. If you picked up Phalanx Fighting and Grant Cover, you have enough defense debuff.
The Steadfast IO +3% is a great start.
Gaussian's in Build Up or Tactics would be good. That's +2.5%
Pick up Weave from Fighting and Combat Jumping from Leaping and your'e only 1.4% short.
Alternatively, instead of Gausians you could go a cheaper route...
Get Multistrike for Whirling Axe, Cleave, and Pendulum
In one of your Epic Pool ranged attacks, 6 slot Thunderstrike. If you don't want that Mako's bite in any of your ST melee attacks.
You have lots of options. The first is just the simplest. -
A note before the builds:
You COULD consider staying a Rogue from level 34-40. Unless you're burning to do some Blue contacts for yourself during that time, just join teams or run radios. During that time, get your alignment bar (or whatever) set to 10/10 for heroes. At 40, unlock the patron, and do the one mission to switch over.
I mean, it's 6 levels without base teleporters and stuff, but it doesn't seem that bad to me. My blue Dominator sat as a Rogue for a while because I transfered during the free time to Champion then couldn't find a team to help me get the Talos mayhem badge (a task that's much easier IME on Virtue). Since that was all I needed for Invader, I waffled for a few levels before making the full jump to hero.
Crab Build:
Acrobatics is a waste. Pick up a power pool to mule another LotG: recharge or a Karma:KB protection. Stealth, Grant Invisibility, Maneuvers or Hover. If you do LotG: KB protection could go in your passive armor powers. Since you have softcapped ranged defense, my gut instinct is hover. Then if stuff gets dicey you just float above it. OTOH, a lot of your damage is Melee, so Maneuvers might be a better idea and it'd stack with TT:L. It appears to me you'd have the endurance to handle it. You'd know better though.
It makes me sad that you have an apparent devotion to recharge, but didn't take Mental Training. I would take it over Wolf Spider Armor. The nice thing about taking both armors is if they tick in while you're Awakening, you don't have the stun from Awaken. Sometimes that's delayed enough that it won't matter though. The resistance is negligible though.
Bane Build:
Yes, you will be pulling the gun for Venom Grenade. Just like you will for Frag Grenade in your Crab Build (though the Wolf Frag has a lower KB, so that might be worth it if you're anti-KB).
I think with CD suppressed, you're well over softcap on ranged defense. You can skimp a bit there.
I would switch Surveillance to Exploited Vulnerability and the Achilles' Heal proc. That gets you a bit more melee defense and a chance for an even bigger -res. The accuracy probably won't be missed, as you have a HUGE chunk of +tohit.
You don't need the 5th piece in Stamina. 2.5% damage buff won't mean much.
Poisonous Ray is about damage. Swap that out for Decimation (5 pieces) and get some recharge.
Drop Acrobatics. Move Mental Training up. Again, mule an lotg at 49. I'd say Hover or Maneuvers again.
Those changes dropped your regeneration by 20%, I think, so put one slot back into health and get 16% of that back.
Put Call to Arms in Call Reinforcement. You didn't need that ranged defense, so pick up some AoE.
At that point you have 3 slots to play with and no KB protection. I would use them for at least 1 -KB IO, either Steadfast in a resist power, Karma in a defense, or Zephyr in CJ/SJ. Steadfast in Bane Spider Armor means a wee bit of HP though. The other two in SJ and taking all of BotZ puts your AoE at softcap with those other changes.
Anyway, that's a lot of notes so I'll just post the changes I'm suggesting as a build. For about the same cost, it has virtually softcapped all positions, a chunk more recharge for a wee bit less regeneration.
You could probably also swap Mako's in Pulverize for Crushing Impact. You don't need the ranged defense and it'd be a bit more recharge. That's your call though, since it might come in handy when exemplaring depending at what level Mako's is.
Code:Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.803 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Sinister Sentinel: Level 50 Natural Arachnos Soldier Primary Power Set: Bane Spider Soldier Secondary Power Set: Bane Spider Training Power Pool: Leaping Power Pool: Fitness Power Pool: Flight Villain Profile: Level 1: Bash -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(3), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(5), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), T'Death-Dam%(17) Level 1: Bane Spider Armor Upgrade -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(3), S'fstPrt-ResKB(39) Level 2: Wolf Spider Armor -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-Psi/Status(5), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(11) Level 4: Combat Training: Defensive -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(7), LkGmblr-Def(25), LkGmblr-Rchg+(27) Level 6: Build Up -- AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-Rchg(9), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(11), AdjTgt-ToHit(48) Level 8: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A) Level 10: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A) Level 12: Pulverize -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(13), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Mako-Dam%(17) Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(A), Zephyr-Travel(39), Zephyr-ResKB(50) Level 16: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Heal-I(37), Mrcl-Rcvry+(48), RgnTis-Regen+(48), Numna-Heal(50) Level 18: Shatter -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(19), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Mako-Dam%(25) Level 20: Stamina -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(21), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(46), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(50) Level 22: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), LkGmblr-Def(36), LkGmblr-Rchg+(36) Level 24: Cloaking Device -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39), LkGmblr-Def(40), LkGmblr-Rchg+(40) Level 26: Placate -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27) Level 28: Surveillance -- ExVuln-DefDeb(A), ExVuln-DefDeb/Rchg(29), ExVuln-DefDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(29), Achilles-ResDeb%(31) Level 30: Poisonous Ray -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(31), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36) Level 32: Crowd Control -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Oblit-%Dam(34) Level 35: Tactical Training: Leadership -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(37), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(40), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Build%(43) Level 38: Mental Training -- Run-I(A) Level 41: Call Reinforcements -- C'Arms-Acc/Rchg(A), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg(42), C'Arms-Dmg/EndRdx(42), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), C'Arms-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(43), C'Arms-+Def(Pets)(46) Level 44: Venom Grenade -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(45), Posi-Dmg/Rng(45), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46) Level 47: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 49: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A) ------------ Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A) Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 1: Conditioning Level 2: Ninja Run ------------
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Quote:That's because it wasn't a plane (or a helicopter or whatever this metaphor is comparing brutes/scrappers to), it's a locomotive. Sure it only moves in one direction, but let's see your puny helicopter try to stop it.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
-I've not rolled any new Tankers myself since GR went Live, nor do I have any desire to. I compare it to buying an RC Spitfire model kit that's missing half of the wing parts. Knowing the end product will be incomplete destroys any joy in putting together what is there. You can call it a plane, but is it really without two wings?
Alternatively, one could buy a helicopter instead. It will be harder to put together, harder to get in the air, but it will fly and it has all the parts in the box..
Okay this is just a metaphor I can't keep up with. I agree with you to some extent (I think). Tanker Tuesday on Champion has meant for a long time that there were a ton of Scranks... Tankers built with damage in mind moreso than tanking or even survivability. When they came out the other 6 days of the week I would get annoyed because I felt like often times there was a half built character (or 2 or 3) on my team. I never kicked them or anything. The worst that could happen is the difficulty gets turned down a notch.
The flip side is with minimal IOing on something like +3/x6, I get BORED playing my WP Tanker. For giggles, I took the Presence AoE Taunt, on top of legacy Taunt and RttC. I am easily at my aggro cap the vast majority of the time and they just can't kill me.
Tankers can tank. They can do it ridiculously well. Brutes/Scrappers are better for soloing, and probably even better for small groups.
In my mind it comes down to the fact that much of the forum community (more so I believe than the players at large) rate powersets, builds, and ATs in general against a steamrolling high difficulty almost-farming style of play. In that mindset all you have to do is survive: you don't need any more mitigation than that. So if with mild support a Brute will hold any aggro that's not locked down, then he's better suited for the job than a Tanker, because mitigation has been met and he's killing stuff faster.
As Dechs pointed out though, his Tanker can tank DE Monsters. That's one circumstance where I'd take a comprable player/built Tanker to a Brute. The game has many other circumstances and venues that do not match the "steam roll" standard. In many of them, Tankers are far more useful than a Brute. People bash Tankers, Defenders, Blasters, and Stalkers based on these varying circumstances, but 1 Tanker, 1 Defender, and 2 Blasters can steam roll on their own.
I too have personal experiences and stories where the "obsolete" out performed the popular. A lot of that comes down to... well, popularity. If TONS of people are playing Scrappers and Brutes then TONS of people who don't IO well, are fairly new, etc etc, are playing those ATs... while maybe a higher proportion of min maxing mega-IOing players are picking up the Defender mantle.
Anyway, that was probably enough as it was. I just wanted to chime in because almost all my favorite forum people already have and I am a follower. -
Quote:Extra! Extra! Read all about it: Not everyone plays the exact same way or is under the same circumstances! Don't ask that others get some perspective and then comment from a position of a singular perception.Originally Posted by je_saist
If your character not earning prestige from 1 to 20 is such a really big deal that you feel you have to make a forum thread complaining about it: You have officially crossed the line of what is right and what is wrong to complain about.
Get Some Perspective Please.
Players still keep earning Prestige at level 50. Players still keep earning prestige while exemplared. Missing the prestige gain from 1-20 is not, in any way shape, form, or mental construction, a big deal.
Okay. Elephant dealt with, onwards!
That's not the Elephant in the room. Some people prefer not to play the market or farm. For them, inf from normal gameplay is important. Therefore, playing in SG mode when that entails a penalty to inf is an issue. Additionally, some people prefer small (sometimes VERY small) SGs and building prestige early on can be rough. Especially if you happen to fit into both of the aforementioned categories. Perspective.
The argument from mythos holds absolutely no water once you've actually experienced the content of Praetoria. Vast amounts of PCs and NPCs alike function within one group while their allegiance is to another. Since "informing" on one alignment to the other only impacts flavor text and (possibly) role playing style, there's no reason to think an SG could not be played out in a similar fashion.
Moreover, there are other factions in Praetoria with super powered beings who are not in the Powers Division. If the "Canon Lore" demanded all super powered beings end up in one of these two factions, the Syndicate could not exist.
It's been said already: it all comes down to the mechanics of SGs. Rogues can't enter Hero SG bases, and Vigilantes can't enter Villain SG bases. You HAVE to have the same "native alignment" as the SG in order to function in that SG. Since Praetorians have no such alignment, they can't be in legacy SGs. There'd have to be new ones, but right now that'd only cover players level 1-20 (assuming they leave then) and then the SG would cease to function for them. -
Quote:Sorry to split hairs, but I believe it's actually +ToHit mods that more than 45% defense comes in handy for. The difference is sort of subtle, but in soft capped game play it makes a difference. That's because an enemy has to be 6 combat levels above you to get a ToHit bonus. Anything +5 or less, and anything beyond 45% won't help.Originally Posted by Syntax42
The only issue I see is that you go past 45% defense due to a couple powers' slotting. The only time it helps is if the enemies have an accuracy buff or if you get debuffed.
I suppose there's exceptions, like enemies who get Targeting Drone and that. With these decent resists and regen, I wouldn't worry about it though.
When you use it in Footstomp, it has a chance to proc off of EVERY guy you hit. With Haymaker, it only checks once. With the difference in recharge in this build, he only has to hit 3 people with Footstomp to just match the average he'd get if it were in Haymaker. He could easily surpass the value of putting in Haymaker if the mobs were even at x4.Quote:Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
I think I'd probably put that Force Feedback proc in Haymaker instead of footstomp. On my Shield/SS I'm usually using it on cooldown, and it comes up faster than twice as often as Footstomp.
I would keep the Taunt IO in AAO if you're not taking Taunt. I know that's a big debate, whether you need Taunt, etc etc, but I really wouldn't try to rely mostly on Gauntlet. I'm guessing you won't be using your normal attacks when Rage crashes, and even with Gauntlet a comparable Brute build will do enough damage that they'll end up tanking. The advantage to Shield/ on a Tank is the higher resists, HPs, and it's easier to Softcap (so you can build for more recharge or regen). I would take advantage of that, and in order for the team to take advantage you need to be taunting amply.
I'm at a loss about what you could change with your current power choices. Going for LotG in Deflection and Battle Agility (3 pieces) would get you some more regen, then replacing Gaus' in Rage with just 2 recharges... you put the freed 8 slots into Boxing and Char for 6 pieces of Stupefy and 4 pieces of Basilisks... that nets you about 10% more recharge and 20% more regen without giving up softcap. That's all I can come up with.
The earlier points about resists and heal in Deflection and True Grit are spot on though. Grant Cover is a good idea too. Is there any powers in here you'd be willing to give up?
With i19, Fitness becoming inherent, you could grab Grant Cover (LotG) One With the Shield, and Taunt. Even with one slot I think these could make a big difference. -
Quote:I'm not sure on the math there, but it's definitely possible. Keeping it as simple as possible, figure the group is big enough you hit 16 targets.... then Contagious Confusion would, on average, proc 5-6 times. Many of those procs would over lap, going back to people that were already hit, but it is in the realm of possibility that just doesn't happen and you hit an extra 20-30, so you're in the end hitting 40 something guys.Originally Posted by Elimist
Maybe I didn't ask clearly. I'll try to make sense
Launch your AoE. It hits 16 enemies, and confuses all of them. The proc hits as well. So, here's what I'm wondering:
Imagine 1 out of those 16 enemies you just hit. The proc hits him, and 5 surrounding enemies get confused as well.
Now, Imagine the 2nd enemy in that mob. Does the proc hit him as well, since the power hit him? If so, the effect just spread to another 5 enemies.
Rinse, repeat. 16 enemies. The proc spread from each of them, to another 5 enemies. 16x5=80+(original 16)=96 enemies. Potentially. Now take into effect that tossing that AoE into a mob, the proc is probably going to hit a decent number of the ones that already got hit anyway. Let's say 1 in 5 were not actually hit by the original AoE. 80/5+16=32. So if you manage to actually bring 96 enemies together, which is doable with a whole team herding, maybe some brutes/tanks. Seems like more effort than it's worth maybe, but think about it. If you can manage to confuse 30 enemies, that's a lot of damage being thrown around, alot of it landing on the other 60 enemies in that pile. Throw a few AoE damage powers out, and you'll get more XP than you lose from the confuse/xp loss equation.
Will this be used often? Probably not. Is it more effective than putting the proc into single target? Maybe not. But is it possible? Do the mechanics allow it.
The problem is that's probably not going to happen. What was already stated is the biggest advantage here, because with a mob of say 20-25, you have a good chance to hit ALL of them. If someone was missed, they don't count toward the 16 max count so with a decent chance to hit and 20-25 enemies, you're going to hit all 16 and proc about 5 times. I wouldn't expect to hit 30-40 though, let alone 60.
...I digress, it would be "POSSIBLE" to hit 60. If you happen to proc more than the average amount expected and the proc hit enemies not already confused. This is INCREDIBLY unlikely though. -
Very nice. I really like the Energy Blaster-meets-awesome-controlls motif.
I was just thinking though... why not drop the +recharge procs, and move them to health. Slot an extra Regenerative Tissue there, and then put Obliteration in Energy Transfer.
That'd put you just over what you need for perma dom.
Also seems like a proc would be better suited in Energy Torrent. On my Energy/Energy blaster I experimented with the proc in different powers and the only place it stuck for me was in ET. It simply procs way more often in a large AoE like that. The difference in recharge is negated by how high your global is and how my original build had so little.
You COULD put the Interupt enhancement slot from Aid Self into Health and just move the proc from Power Push to Energy Torrent. I don't know how important that .3 seconds is to you though. With Phase and Power Boost you probably wouldn't miss it much.
So anyway, you could do (barely) perma dom without procs, and just use 1 in the best power for it as gravy. -
Quote:Okay...? I don't understand picking apart the list like that since it doesn't change the purpose and point of my post... unless it was just for +1.Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
the original Sonic Resonance fx was reportedly nausea/headache inducing if I remember correctly, which is why it was changed.
Going off that list...
-Ice Armor received minor changes, so minor I didn't even know there were changes...and I have a Ice Tank...
-Hurl and Hurl Boulder had their animations sped up, so no real change
-screen shake for super strength attacks *shrug*
Not going to really bother with the temp powers, Piston Boots had it's fx fixed so it wasn't buggy and Blackwand just received a upgraded look.
and imo, power customization doesn't contradict the rule because you still have the option of having the original.
I agree most of the changes were pretty minor. I also don't think Power Customization is a contraction, because I don't think any such rule exists. Power Effects have been changed based on player response. That was my point. Theoretically, if enough people were upset with Hasten it would have been changed. It's been the way it is for years though...
I just brought up Sonic because I remember how drastic the change was. I don't recall any mention of a visual fx cottage rule at the time being bent/ignored/broken. So in short, I'd just like to see a textual citation if we're going to base a position on some rule that's apparently not enforced if it exists at all. -
Quote:Okay... maybe I can simplify this a bit for you to understand.Originally Posted by Misaligned
Erm then why mention the lack of damage that hasn't been there since i15?
Why not toss in the it doesn't increase your agro cap as long as we're pointing out the things it doesn't do?
The OP/thread is ONLY about double/triple domination.
The original purpose of double/triple domination was to increase damage.
It no longer increases damage, so the original purpose of double/triple domination does not exist.
So extra damage (or not) is relevant to the discussion. The increase mez mag /duration is not relevant, because it never had any say on whether or not you double/triple domination.
Hence, what is to be gained (mez protection and endurance refills) needs to be weighed against the cost/possibility of double/triple domination. When you got your word in edge wise it should have been something like this: "Don't forget that perma Dom is important because of the mez mag/duration, but that's an effect which doesn't benefit from double/triple domination."
Since you just said it ought be mentioned in every discussion in Domination, without reference to the OP, the people already discussing didn't take you seriously and were dismissive. You made it appear as if you don't understand what double Domination entails but were chiming in anyway. Continuing to argue the point isn't rectifying the appearance either.
Hopefully that clears it up.
OP: Going a bit beyond perma Dom isn't a bad idea for the extra endurance, but even if you could shoot for double, you'd be better off putting some sets towards accuracy, or even possibly defense or regeneration. -
Quote:Say what? Is there citation for such a rule? Even if there IS such a rule, doesn't Power Customization contradict that?Originally Posted by Obsidius
The Visual FX version of the Cottage Rule is still a Cottage Rule. Just leave the FX as-is until we got Power Customization for Power Pool powers.
At any rate, if something like that was mentioned, it's not enforced. The Cottage Rule first came up in Issue 5. That's the same Issue that Sonic Resonance was introduced. In Issue 10, the visual fx on Sonic were greatly changed. As were the effects of several other powers.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_10#Power_Effects
The Cottage Rule is about changing the effects of a power, at least insofar as removing the ones in place:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...8&postcount=17
The problem with changing Hasten now is not just that enough people like it the way it is, some people depend more on the visual fx on their character than their indicators under your health bar or on the team screen. For example, a perma-Dom that needs Hasten might leave Domination on auto, but depend on the lack of fire hands to know when to reactivate Hasten.
The pools with Travel powers should be at the top of the list for power customization (even if that was all we got on the first release), because they are so common and there's so many ways they could go. I want to see Teleport use the Ninja Leap costume change emote... hop up... hop down somewhere else. So anyway, my "vote" is no, leave it alone, but yes customization ASAP. -
As it was already pointed out twice, World of Confusion does exist for Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors... AND Dominators.
Who does that leave?
Blasters (Lightning Field)
Scrappers (Quills, Death Shroud)
Tankers (Lightning Field, Fiery Aura)
WS (Orbitting Death) / PBs (neither get EPPs)
Brutes (Death Shroud, Fiery Aura, Lightning Field)
If you keep in mind that epics are not supposed to duplicate the powers in the primary/secondaries then I think the only real question is why don't Masterminds get one?
Granted you could still do it without using the EXACT same powers (give Death Shroud to Blasters or whatever), since they get Static Discharge which is a cone blast (like so many others in their sets). I think it's that the function of each of the damage auras is the same and they didn't want them to stack up.
VEATS get copies of Brutes', even if that's not right in this case.
It would be counter productive for a Stalker, the same reason these powers aren't in their secondaries.
Just imagine a Spine/Dark scrapper with Quills, Death Shroud, and an Epic damage aura... -
Quote:Originally Posted by Lucky
I'm gonna roll a triple elec blapper just wonder what kind of defence people think would work best. Maybe get s/l high or go for some range and melee with some resistance from an epic shield. What does the blapper know hows think?The original question was 100% what kind of defense to use with those powersets. There was no question about what other sets would work. Check where the periods are and the question mark. I digress, I think you should at least answer the OP question before throwing out new suggestions.Quote:Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
No it's not, I read the OPs entire post.Quote:Originally Posted by CandleStickThats bull and you know it. The OP's question was clearly about what defense to build for on his Elec^3, not what powersets to play.
Why's that? Answering a question that wasn't asked threadjacks... and here we are. -
Quote:If you want to make slotting easier on the forms, why not just have the attacks (and/or the forms) get two inherent slots instead of one? That'd be 8 (or 10 or 2) extra slots and make it a little easier on tri-forms. Probably isn't going to happen either, but I think that'd be a more likely way to implement a few extra slots.Originally Posted by Bean_Poll
Okay rethinking distribution of the extra slots... Hehe
The problem with 10+ free slots even if restricted to the forms is you could pick up a form just to mule 2 or 3 sets for a basically Human-Only form. Giving up one power pick for an inherent Break Free/Heal and say 3 Kinetic Combats (11.25% s/l defense) would be too awesome. So I really see it benefiting human forms more than the bi/tri forms.