Fire_Away

tl; dr version: I'm out of ideas on what to suggest.

Well now you are asking the million dollar question. If I had the answer on how to change the "culture" of this whole thing I'd be a much happier fellow. Let's just say I've taken a lot of "mud" over this issue over the years (some of it, in retrospect, very much deserved... some not) for having way too much of an emotional investment in this area. Even that would not be so bad if it would have made any difference at all (it hasn't). And I'm far from alone.

All I can tell you for sure is this is not your typical "players want - devs respond with results" thing. I happen to believe that CoH Freedom is the best MMO on the planet. I also believe that, in general, the devs are brilliant, dedicated and very friendly. I've seen it... up close and in person. Unfortunately, I also happen to believe they have blown it and continue to blow it this particular area... to the point where a second rate competitor has them beat.

Ask a dev about bases and the first thing you will get is the "pained eye roll". There is a negative stigma associated with bases that is unlike anything else I've seen with any other aspect of this game. I do not have any special insight into the culture at PS but my guess is it's from a failed initial vision and implementation, and multiple failed attempts to rez that vision and implementation. That's a lot of negative momentum to overcome, particularly for a "niche" community. So much so that no matter how much I (and others) may wish it... it may never happen.

Can you tell I spend entirely too much time and effort thinking about this stuff?

I saw what you did there. Way to hedge your bet (barring an entirely new system). I ask (I know I'm not in a position to demand anything) because I've been down this road before (many times), I've been told many things, and was disappointed (many times... if it was for 15 "valid reasons" or not is subject to debate). I think a reasonable person with reasonable expectations should ask what comes next. If that baffles you, that's a shame. Personally, I'm not prepared mentally to deal with another seven years of crap over this. So I tell you what, if I split you get dibs on my stuff.

And with that... I'm out and leave the next word to you or anyone who wants it.

Sorry, I needed time to compose myself a lttle bit before responding to this.

What is just ridiculous is the YEARS of disappointment and the things players were told were going to happen with bases but did not occur. Now that is ridiculous. They're trying? They're working on it? I've heard that before couched in much more optimistic terms BTW. Can I get a reference please because all I'm hearing is "no plans" to work on this in any significant way other than the occasional QOL thing?

Frankly, I'm very surprised there isn't more of an outcry. My guess is that it's because (a) many players have already given up and moved on (I personally know of many) (b) the basebuilding community (yours truly obviously excluded) is comprised of very creative, very friendly people who, as a rule, do not enjoy being confrontational (but look at what that has got them) (c) those that are left are "beaten down" and (d) this is so out of character with the friendly, competent, dedicated and results oriented way PS does other business they are willing to "let it all slide".

Can you imagine the torches and and pitchforks that would occur if say this were the costume editor? Picture no new costumes in a span of like years. Picture the response to a "Jenga on fire" dev comment tomorrow on that topic. Wow! Cover your ears.

It's not rocket surgery. If the devs understand that players would LOVE to see new base stuff then the devs need to ACT (not promise and not try to be cute). The only thing I even partially agree with you on is that it may take an entirely new system. Tell me: Who is signed on as responsible to do anything? Who is accountable? What's the priority? How long do you figure it'll take? I'd like to speak to that group. Cause all I'm hearing so far (for YEARS) is a bunch of excuses.

Is this about meeting the desires of your customers? Or coming up with reasons why it's "hard"... cause I have heard them all (15 people, other priorities, spaghetti code, the guy that knows (and cares) left, niche community, group content, and now Jenga on fire). I can't see how anything is going to get any better under these circumstances... so I'm speaking out one more time... and that may be hopeless... but it's not ridiculous.

I'm not arguing with you here (really). It's just that... the thing I cannot reconcile in my head is: (a) Paragon Studios, on the one hand, priding itself on its relationship with the community, how well they listen and are responsive to what players want, etc, etc., etc. VERSUS (b) How not a week goes by that some player doesn't bring up some much desired base related improvement (with offline sg invites and personal lairs leading the pack). Even the players I disagree with the most say things like "Believe me, I agree more base love is wanted/needed" all the time.

Apparently, Paragon Studios is more than prepared to deal with this player inquiry in the long term with cute "Jenga on fire" responses. I guess that's better than saying you will do stuff and not following through... but not by much. It's still pretty much turning your back on a community (a community made small from dev neglect... not because of a lack of player interest).

Sometimes things are hard. Sometimes you have a mess and you need to either clean it up or you need to do something else better. If, that is, you really intend to be responsive to your player base at all.

I know and I get that there is a profitability angle to consider. But then I wonder about the payoff of say the work involved with another (ghost town) Praetoria zone versus something like personal lairs. Why would this stuff keep coming up from the players if nobody wanted it?

The next time I have to sit through a Summit session and listen to a dev bragging about how well they are attuned to player desires I'm going to grab that rotten tomato I brought along, yell "BASES", and fling it. Ok that is just wishful thinking... probably just as wishful a thing as personal lairs. Gotta go. My Jenga pieces are on fire!

My take on that is that stuff like the Tunnel Teleport system is supposed to be the "answer" for player travel needs (at least as far as Praetoria is concerned) in lieu of more base beacons.

Well I guess we'll agree to disagree on a number of points. It's probably a good thing that two different perspectives of this issue are presented so that ppl can make up their own mind on the issues. It is in that spirit that I offer the below:

As far as I know the things that were horribly broken with bases got fixed. Funny how that happens when there is a persistence to see things through.

I'm old school (aww let's face it... I'm just old... late 50's in age). Personal commitment and keeping your word mean a lot! I'm not sure where you have been the past several years but I've been through the ringer at numerous M&G/Herocon/Summits with the devs and it hasn't been pretty.

From the base raids "on the box" let down to the "All your base are belong to us" failure, to the "bases will have their day in the sun" broken promise, to the "big plans waiting in the wings" broken promise to the "new textures: suggestions?" broken promise to the "All things art: bases" broken promise (no code needed by the way) to the latest "we are committing" for base transfers one year no results thing it's been a cycle of mostly neglect and failure. How anyone can spin this as the devs are "doing what they can" is beyond me... especially when, like I said (and you did not refute) there are at least some simple things they could do and be successful... if they wanted to finally devote some attention to it.

I'll concede the no experience in coding (at least base coding) point. However, I do not believe the state of the code should be a free pass license to excuse poor performance and results. How did the legacy system become a legacy system? Aferall, people come and go between jobs all the time. I'll answer that one. It's from (a) not doing their homework to start with on the documentation side and (b) putting bases on largely ignore as not important enough as a priority. I also don't believe there is no one in the world available that can make the code situation better... if PS wanted to do that.

The reason bases offer little financial benefit is because the devs are using the completely wrong approach. By catering to mostly a small group of elite base builders (who make their unique creations under a class system largely from prestige earned by others in their sg) they limit their market niche. Personal housing would solve this. Also, if the devs had lived up to another broken promise... that to make bases more "fun and functional" for everyone in an sg, the universal appeal of bases would be evident and we would not be having this discussion.

If you want to be happy and thankful and all that, it goes without saying that is your right. I'm sure that you will be joined by others that will grovel in great praise over the few crumbs that spill out from time to time and ignore the multiple disappointments of the past (or, more importantly, the unrealized potential in the future) because of "legacy code" issues. But I hope if you will excuse me if I have a harder time accepting all that. (Ok that last part is a bit of hyperbole I admit, but it comes from the heart).

Sorry but I still don't get how any of this leads the devs to (1) repeatedly say (in the first place) they will do things for bases then not deliver, (2) not provide even simple base things that would make many people happy (like more sg emblems... including a blank one) and (3) apparently have no plan/desire to make the situation any better.

I've been to every Bay Area M&G/Herocon/Summit and I'm a huge fan of the devs in general. But if they treated the rest the game like this there would be torches and pitchforks everywhere. The legacy code deal is one thing. But the truth is somebody fairly high up has made the decision (repeatedly) that it's not worth it to them for PS to meet their own stated commitments for bases... let alone other things players may want. It's sad that the legacy code has become such a large crutch for every form of inaction on their part... and how many players are just buying that little to nothing can be done to rectify things.

My last comment. Yep, time will tell indeed. I've resisted the urge to squawk about this earlier (not that it would have made a difference) because I knew one legit reply from forumland would be "give it time".

Still, you would think the credibility factor ("we are committing") would mean more than it apparently does (or at least has in the past). When a dev says "Batallion is coming" I will never know about the code or other things associated with making this happen... but my confidence is sky high there will be results. With bases...not so much.

I get the fragile code thing. But I also strongly believe there are other factors. Priorities and plans often seem to change for the worse for bases. The tenacity needed to see things through fades. Comments made once are never mentioned again by the devs (and are not remembered by many, even high profile, players).

Personally, if this thing is set up for failure, I rather they say nothing to start with on the subject than to say there is a commitment to do something that isn't going to happen.

Still hoping for the best.

Wrong (again). Found it. Positron 6/23/2011:

Supergroup Transfers (Including bases)
This is something we anticipated and are actively working on, but it likely won’t be ready for City of Heroes Freedom’s launch. We are committing to bringing you this service in the future and it won’t be just to the VIP server, it will be between any server. It will likely require the Supergroup’s Super Leader to actually execute the transfer.

I'm disappointed... thought there would be at least one "I can't log in on Thursdays or Fridays and I'm getting hosed" by now.

Edit: Drat! Scooped!

Thank you sir for commenting. Sounds reasonable to me. I wonder what the backlash would be ("I missed the event." "I missed the badge opportunity". "I pay your salary'. etc. etc. etc.) if you did something less.

Here's my deal (and I'm asking this rhetorically): is there any responsibility or accountability in this area at all? When somebody with a red name says "we will do this" or "we are committed to do that" (believe me I can name specifics but I don't want to publicly embarass anyone) with bases should there be any expectation that it will occur? I gave up on one on ones at these events because much of what I was told simply did not pan out (probably for the reasons you cite above). To tell you the truth, I feel better for avoiding those for base issues.

But the integrity issue (in a game I'm absolutely nuts about) bugs me. The only thing I saw publicly this last time was an attempt by the head honcho to give a player the "bum's rush" who had the nerve to ask about bases because the topic wasn't included in the keynote address. Eventually the question was answered with an expectation of QOL improvements in some form in the future. Should I have such an expectation given the above and the track record of this whole thing?

This is an excellent strategy. Somebody told me long ago: "Fire_Away, the name of the game is City of Heroes; not City of Bases". I learned (much later unfortunately... and I still have trouble) the profoundness of that statement. I was so foolish that I was becoming physically ill because of base disappointments (how dumb is that?). Now I try to be thankful that we have bases at all and that the legacy of the game as a whole is not the same as the legacy of bases (I seriously doubt CoH would still be around if it were... sorry if this comes off as snark but I don't know how else to put it).

I still enjoy making and supporting what I think are good base related ideas (like this one) but you gotta be realistic too.

Well said. I'm finding it difficult to find fault in your logic, especially wrt RP.

Also, I find the devs said "whatever" arguments when it comes to SGs and bases to be more than a little hollow at this point. The devs said (on the box) that there would be base raids. The devs said (a couple of years ago) they had all kinds of stuff "waiting in the wings" for bases that never materialized (boy did I fall hard for that one). The devs said after that that bases would get "new textures" (never happened). The devs said there would be an "All things art: bases" section originated by them that never happened either. The devs said bases are group content... yet provide next to nothing to support that notion. I could go on but I think you get the idea. The devs say a lot and do a lot less when it comes to SGs and bases (for whatever reason). I've had years of frustration with what the devs said versus what happens... and I know I'm not alone.

Now, just about all we have left is word of QOL improvements coming in drips at a time. This would be a decent one of those QOL things to do IMHO. Personally, I would not let a hero anywhere near my villain base but I could see where someone else could RP it in a totally other direction.