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Actually, as far as I've understood what's come from the devs on this, the 'jenga on fire' issue is that the base code is tied into the game in ways that causes stuff to break when they change things with it. So they pretty much have to 'reverse-engineer the entire tangled mess', since just getting rid of it would cause other parts of the game to break - and due to the lack of documentation, they have no idea what those parts may be.|
Originally Posted by Quinch
the cost of reverse-engineering the entire tangled mess is probably greater than doing it proper, in line with the game code as it exists now and as it's planned to exist later. All graphical resources can probably be reused, and bases as exist now already provide a solid baseline for functionality.
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Granted, personally I'd love if they found a way to just start over from scratch with this, but until they can figure out a way to not break the rest of the game in the process, we'll just have to be patient.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
A plausible story for rebuilding the base might be that it was destroyed in an invasion by enemies or aliens. Classic comic book stuff!
I have long felt that bases just are not what they could or should be, if getting them right means destroying them, then so be it, make it the focus of an Issue story line or something.
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Agreed -- and it's a really great feature that's sadly underutilized as it is. |
Originally Posted by Quinch
But on the whole, the idea of building and custom tailoring your own supergroup/guild/linkshell/clan is pretty rare {unprecedented?} in other MMOs and is too appealing, I think, to be allowed to stay underutilized.
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As someone who's spent a couple hundred hours (maybe) building three functional bases that don't make people wince and/or curse when they see them, I'd be mostly okay with those bases getting destroyed if the SGs got their prestige back and most importantly, if we got a significantly better base-building system.
On the other hand, I'm sure there's a LOT of basebuilders who've spent A LOT more time breathing life into their 3D creations and who would cheerfully kick me in the head for my above statement!
I'm kind of curious now as to where the majority of players would be if there were a poll. "Leave it as it is," "please delete and start from scratch," or "bases? Who uses bases any more?" (While I like the newer, easily attained ways of getting around like Ouro portals, Long Range Teleport, Mission Transporter and the overhauled train system, I think those also made base teleporters less attractive to people, and thus bases less attractive.)
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
My only concern with such a change would be what happens to base storage. As long as they can figure out a way to make sure that I retain my stockpiled inspirations, salvage and enhancements I'd be cool with it.
While they're at it, they could add this.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I am for anything that will make bases more fun and functional for everyone... even if it takes awhile.
I am opposed to more of the same lack of results for years to come.
I am just a "dumb" player/customer who isn't smart enough to know if the best course of action is to take an extinguisher to "jenga on fire" or start from scratch.
The first thing that has to happen is the powers that be have to be convinced that a major effort (which is probably true for either a fix or redo alternative) is worth it; especially from a business/profit perspective. I personally believe that would be the case... the devs from every indication so far... not so much.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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One way it could be done would be to give people with existing bases "credit" towards building a new base and a period of time to transfer everything from the old storage to new storage. Say 6 months to a year. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
My only concern with such a change would be what happens to base storage. As long as they can figure out a way to make sure that I retain my stockpiled inspirations, salvage and enhancements I'd be cool with it.
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Sure there will be people complaining they didn't have enough time or they didn't know the old system was being replaced but ya gotta draw the line somewhere for the good of the active players.
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It's possible. The risk there is that you'd need to have both types of base operational at the same time which potentially causes other issues.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
One way it could be done would be to give people with existing bases "credit" towards building a new base and a period of time to transfer everything from the old storage to new storage. Say 6 months to a year.
Sure there will be people complaining they didn't have enough time or they didn't know the old system was being replaced but ya gotta draw the line somewhere for the good of the active players. |
A possible alternative would be to move all existing stored items into a special storage area where you can remove items but not add new ones. So everything gets tossed in there and you can transfer it to the new base storage once you get it built.
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Whatever solution is decided upon there will still be someone complaining they "lost" stuff because they weren't actively playing when the changeover is made.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
It's possible. The risk there is that you'd need to have both types of base operational at the same time which potentially causes other issues.
A possible alternative would be to move all existing stored items into a special storage area where you can remove items but not add new ones. So everything gets tossed in there and you can transfer it to the new base storage once you get it built. |
That is why I mentioned a "grace" period of 6 months to a year (personally I prefer a year because that seems to me to be more than a generous amount of time especially now that the games F2P) for players to get their affairs in order.
To me the "how" isn't as important as the amount of time allowed to get items moved over. A generous allotment of time cuts the legs out from the inevitable "it's not fair, I didn't know" complaints that will happen.
Well having a special storage area means it the how long can easily be "until the servers shut down".
Basically what I'm envisioning is a setup where all items are moved into permanent storage and the old bases are deleted (with prestige being refunded). When you start your new base you can place a "Permanent Storage Access" item for zero prestige in any room which will allow you to remove items from the permanent storage area (but you can't add more items). Once that is setup it's pretty easy to leave it as a legacy item even once most people have removed their stuff.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Well having a special storage area means it the how long can easily be "until the servers shut down".
Basically what I'm envisioning is a setup where all items are moved into permanent storage and the old bases are deleted (with prestige being refunded). When you start your new base you can place a "Permanent Storage Access" item for zero prestige in any room which will allow you to remove items from the permanent storage area (but you can't add more items). Once that is setup it's pretty easy to leave it as a legacy item even once most people have removed their stuff. |
Who is putting stuff into that special storage tho? The players or will it be done automatically?
If it's us then we will still have the "I didn't know" complaints.
If it's done automatically will it be sophisticated enough to,
1. maintain previously established security settings
2. take into consideration SG's that use creative bases editing to wall off storage bins from SG members to give some members extra personal storage
For some reason I've a feeling there's a third example that I can't remember.
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Again, the issue is that doing the latter requires doing the former. According to the devs, the base code is tied into the game in such a way that things will break if they mess with it. They have to figure out what it will break, how to prevent that, and then they can decide whether to rework it or start from scratch.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Away
I am just a "dumb" player/customer who isn't smart enough to know if the best course of action is to take an extinguisher to "jenga on fire" or start from scratch.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Away
The first thing that has to happen is the powers that be have to be convinced that a major effort (which is probably true for either a fix or redo alternative) is worth it; especially from a business/profit perspective. I personally believe that would be the case... the devs from every indication so far... not so much.
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"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
IF, and it's a HUGE MONSTROUS KLUDGE of an IF, they could manage it, I would suggest they do the following.
A. Leave the current base mess as is. Don't touch it. Don't change it. Leave the Jenga on fire as it is.
B. Create a new system along side the old legacy system. Create a way to use both. (make any new SGs only have access to the new system.)
This would allow two things. One, no one would lose anything from the original base, and would have the ability resell bits and pieces off while regaining prestige. This would also allow time to move storage items from the old base to the new base. Maybe create a way to convert legacy base items into new base items. Akin to how you can convert base salvage into brainstorms.
Mind you, I really don't think this would ever happen, but there you go.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Well the idea was to do it automatically in order to avoid the whole "I forgot to move my stuff in time and now it's gone" problem. Now on the issues you raised, if I were doing it it would default to SG Leader only access after the transition with him being able to set permissions or just manually move it all himself.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Who is putting stuff into that special storage tho? The players or will it be done automatically?
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As for the issues with SG having personal storage that isn't technically supported by the system so I wouldn't worry to much about having it work that way during the transition. What I would do however is give plenty of warning so that if there are any SGs where the members do feel a strong need to separate their stuff they can manually remove and stash it on characters prior to the transition.
No it's not a perfect solution but it would work well enough and I doubt that there are that many truly dysfunctional SGs that couldn't figure out a way to redistribute the items after the move if necessary.
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tl; dr version: I'm out of ideas on what to suggest.|
Originally Posted by DeviousMe
Well, what would you suggest? If we can figure out a way to make this happen, I'm all for it.
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Well now you are asking the million dollar question. If I had the answer on how to change the "culture" of this whole thing I'd be a much happier fellow. Let's just say I've taken a lot of "mud" over this issue over the years (some of it, in retrospect, very much deserved... some not) for having way too much of an emotional investment in this area. Even that would not be so bad if it would have made any difference at all (it hasn't). And I'm far from alone.
All I can tell you for sure is this is not your typical "players want - devs respond with results" thing. I happen to believe that CoH Freedom is the best MMO on the planet. I also believe that, in general, the devs are brilliant, dedicated and very friendly. I've seen it... up close and in person. Unfortunately, I also happen to believe they have blown it and continue to blow it this particular area... to the point where a second rate competitor has them beat.
Ask a dev about bases and the first thing you will get is the "pained eye roll". There is a negative stigma associated with bases that is unlike anything else I've seen with any other aspect of this game. I do not have any special insight into the culture at PS but my guess is it's from a failed initial vision and implementation, and multiple failed attempts to rez that vision and implementation. That's a lot of negative momentum to overcome, particularly for a "niche" community. So much so that no matter how much I (and others) may wish it... it may never happen.
Can you tell I spend entirely too much time and effort thinking about this stuff?
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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Oh! Hang on....|
Originally Posted by Eldorado
I'm kind of curious now as to where the majority of players would be if there were a poll.
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Yep... There WAS a poll
And the poll was instigated after I posed the question in a previous thread.
I know, I know... old threads are old...
But here's the thing... considering the lack of dev response we got a year and a half ago, what makes you think anything has changed?
Especially since I keep repeating what I was told at the Player Summit a mere 5 months ago... NO NEW developments for bases in the near future... Occasional QOL improvements are the best we can expect.
I hate repeating myself.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
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Well, old or not, thanks for the links and information! I'm not surprised the topic comes up on a regular basis. |
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
Yep... There WAS a poll
And the poll was instigated after I posed the question in a previous thread. I know, I know... old threads are old... |
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Originally Posted by Impish Kat
But here's the thing... considering the lack of dev response we got a year and a half ago, what makes you think anything has changed?
Especially since I keep repeating what I was told at the Player Summit a mere 5 months ago... NO NEW developments for bases in the near future... Occasional QOL improvements are the best we can expect. I hate repeating myself. |
We're overloaded with information but can we even get Patch Notes on a timely basis? "Oh, we already posted them in the beta forums under "Build 23.3233.32.114 Notes" from three weeks ago...that you can't read. Oops." Yes, "oops" -- because using "copy/paste" on the day of a patch is apparently either too complicated or too far below someone's job description.
You probably already had said this over in the Base Builder's forum, but thanks for letting the rest of us know what's going on!
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
Sorry if I came off snarky, Eldorado. It's a sore spot.
It's so frustrating to have been a cheerleader for bases for so long, only to basically watch the audience wander off to better shineys.
So I've put up my pom poms.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
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I think that is absolutely the best way to go about this.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
IF, and it's a HUGE MONSTROUS KLUDGE of an IF, they could manage it, I would suggest they do the following.
A. Leave the current base mess as is. Don't touch it. Don't change it. Leave the Jenga on fire as it is. B. Create a new system along side the old legacy system. Create a way to use both. (make any new SGs only have access to the new system.) This would allow two things. One, no one would lose anything from the original base, and would have the ability resell bits and pieces off while regaining prestige. This would also allow time to move storage items from the old base to the new base. Maybe create a way to convert legacy base items into new base items. Akin to how you can convert base salvage into brainstorms. Mind you, I really don't think this would ever happen, but there you go. |
View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com
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Imp's also stopped wearing the cute little skirt. |
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
Sorry if I came off snarky, Eldorado. It's a sore spot.
It's so frustrating to have been a cheerleader for bases for so long, only to basically watch the audience wander off to better shineys. So I've put up my pom poms. . |
.. I'm surprised the code for bases got in such a state to begin with.
But as bases are something much request by the player base i'd be surprised if they haven't in some way began working/reworking on bases as we speak.. even if it's drawing up the plans etc.
Though i'm sure we won't see nothing for at least 2 issues, depending on how the code is and gonna be. (I think my head will blow to see the current code lol)
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Imp's also stopped wearing the cute little skirt.
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errrrmmmm.... not quite.... more like... traded it in for a different style
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
Rebuild.
If the "jenga on fire" situation is true {and I don't see a reason to believe it's not}, then the base and supergroup mechanics are going to be locked in a stagnating standstill {stagnantstill?} forever, while the rest of the game moves on, code and content-wise.
So, take a month, two, three or however long it takes, and rebuild the base code from scratch. Wrap an issue around it - it doesn't have to be all bells and whistles, but unless Indiana Jones shows up at the devs' doorstep with the mystical Lost Documentation Of Base Code the cost of reverse-engineering the entire tangled mess is probably greater than doing it proper, in line with the game code as it exists now and as it's planned to exist later. All graphical resources can probably be reused, and bases as exist now already provide a solid baseline for functionality. Items of Power and other PVP-based aspects can be cheerfully discarded for the basic build if/until base raids are re-implemented.
But on the whole, the idea of building and custom tailoring your own supergroup/guild/linkshell/clan is pretty rare {unprecedented?} in other MMOs and is too appealing, I think, to be allowed to stay underutilized.