Dissolution
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Posts
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Joined
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I am more than happy without boosting my run speed. TP works well and throwing a few more slots in taunt keeps the mobs running to me.
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Great post macskull! I agree with just about everything in your post.
That being said I never logged on just to pvp, but I did enjoy the speed of the game. You always knew it was going to be fun when you seen the multitude of SS trails behind super jump painting the distant landscape. TribHavok's suggestion for suppression sounded excellent.
The change from status protection to status resistance was a terrible idea imo. This may be one of those "the power effects still are the same at the core" things but I see no reason a power should "effect" different than it does in pve.
Balance is a tricky word but the bottom line is a support AT should have a difficult time vs offensive AT's, a melee AT should have a difficult time with ranged AT's. They just needed a chance or opportunity. Reeling in ranged AT's with a taunt is a good opportunity, chasing them firing off taunt so they must Target you is an oppertunity.
I really enjoyed other groups of players sending stalkers after my debuffer, sure I died ALOT, but I was support and the others wanting me spending most of the time at the hospital made me feel effective in a round about way.
The other problem with adjusting everything but a powers "core" is it alters everything. No longer can I move into a group of npc's and rely on damage from auras or debuffs to protect my toon because they detoggle all the time.
I could at times get crushed by some super purple pvp IOed toon but that's ok too, if I could I would spend the inf on my toon as well.
To the developers, please listen to the spirit of the OP. -
The short answer is yes. Granite can still take it on the chin, you should be fine.
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OK thanks everyone. I will pick a few different groups and see how it goes.
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I am not near the game at the moment, but I can tell you that smash lethal, energy neg are well over 45%, I am even dropping the blue wisp pet on top of that. If I remember correctly most other defenses are mid 30s. That's all before EA.
Just not as Tanky as I remember. -
Hello Tankers,
So I have been away from the game for a couple issues and it seems as though my Ice tank is a bit more vulnerable than she was. I am getting smashed by +1 Malta now.
Any guidance would be appreciated
Thanks -
I Agree with Aett, plus atm not to many Ice build running around. The DE quartz is really the one I had trouble with. Like many things it helps with a team that has some understanding some deaper workings with the game.
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I agree Unstoppable is not needed. It is much to easy to soft cap Invul and along with high resistance. I agree that the cost outweigh the benifits.
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Well, Ice/ is still Ice/.
/Elec is no worse than any other set, it has mitigation via knockback and the early powers can be slotted with a chance of heal self from the sleep set (sandman).
I don't see anything "wrong" with /Elec melee. -
Thanks for the replies! I know many ideas get put forth on the forums and do not get used in game... maybe in part they are saving the best Ideas for a CoH2? I really think it would neat for players in RV to be asking around for a strength based melle toon or a weakness based ranged toon to handle a tricked out Dom or Blaster.. etc.
I would just like the devs to know that players that do not reguraly frequent the PvP forums are thinking of ways to fix what many of us see as a problem...
I agree we need to get back to the good parts, but I do think the changes would help, mabe not to the degree that I believe, but I do think it would help.
Thank you again for the replies. -
Please forgive the spelling and format... I was not born in the U.S.... but I love her!
Maybe a bit of a radical Idea and really just the start of one but playing the game as close to PvE as possible only makes sense to me. Ofcourse this game.. CoH.. PvP was introduced later causing some balance issues that.. ehhh.. it seems as though they might be getting worse, or atleast the game play seems to be. IMO.
So my reasons may not be the best but I hope you can follow the reasoning behind them. I honestly think the following is the way to work the system.
Things are not equal in superhero land nor should they be!
The current problem as I see it is ..Equal powers and Archetype capabilities yields unequal results causing ...
1) Lack of diversity
2) Flavor builds of the month
3) Lack of interest in casual players and/or underfunded players
4) Lack of population in PvP areas
How do we correct these problems without nerfing/changing powers on a yearly/monthly basis?
1) We unbalance PvP! Unbalance it good and bad! Yes, every player needs to see another player and wonder more than... "Lets see what AT that isto figure a margine of success!" Players need a fight or flight mode, they need to decide... to do more than decide, they need to wonder.. Will this will be a good fight?... Will I get PWNED if I attack that player?... Muahaha, PWNAGE??... Is that my equal could it be a standoff?
If one powerset could fight and hold an advantage on atleast one other powerset everytime and we set that to something like, A>B, B>C. but C>A then more options would become open for players... That would help solve diversity issues, possibly reduce flavor of the month builds, allowing some "newbies" to enter PvP zones without getting crushed everytime they leave the base... in return increasing the population.
PVP CHANGE "STRENGTH AND WEAKNESS"
STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES MELEE EDITION
Trying to balance PvP is actually what is wrong with the system, each set needs an area it is almost unbeatable and an area where it is sure to fail.. these areas include damage, debuffing, mez duration and magnitude, and unresistable damage. Melee edition is based off of the armor the toon has although this can be the seconday powerset.
*Of the 12 armor sets 8 "can" be thought of as mostly resistance/regen and 4 of them mostly defense. (although not accurate) But that is how we are going to break it down.
*Stone sets benifit from both depending on how they are being played in or out of Granite. Numbers based on Granite being used.
DEFENSE SETS
The *4 defense sets should be let loose of the "soft cap" and given a straight defense vs. tohit/accuracy check. These sets include...
1. Shields (benifit to Tanks, Brutes, Scrappers)
2. Super Reflexes (benifit to Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers)
3. Energy Aura (benifit to Brutes, Stalkers)
4. Ninjitsu (benifit Stalkers)
5. Stone Armor out of Granite (benifit to Tanks, Brutes)
Although these sets would have no strength vs. weakness they do have a potential of being better than the minimum 5% chance to hit them. All attacks act as they do in PvE to include damage, debuffing, mez duration and magnitude, and unresistable damage.
RESISTANCE/REGEN SETS
The following rule applies to STRENGTHS and WEAKNESSES
STRENGTHS:
1.Damage resistance is set to the Archetype maximum against the STRENGTH attack type.
2.Effectivness of debuffs, Mez (duration /magnitude) and unresistable damage will be Reduced by the following levels per Archetype against the STRENGTH attack type:
Tanks: 90%
Brutes: 75%
Scrappers: 50%
Stalkers: 25%
WEAKNESSES:
1. Damage resistance againts the WEAKNESS attack type is unmodifiable by buffs, inspirations or temporary powers.
2. Debuffs, Mez (durration/magnitude) and unresistable damage will be increased at the following rate per Archetype and unmodiffiable by buffs, inspirations or temporary powers against the WEAKNESS attack type:
Tanks: 50%
Brutes: 50%
Scrappers: 50%
Stalkers: 50%
POWERSETS - STRENGTH and WEAKNESSES
Dark Armor: Strength-negative, Weakness-energy
Electric Armor: Strength-energy, Weakness-negative
Fire Armor: Strength-Fire, Weakness-Cold
Ice Armor: Strength-cold, Weakness-Fire
Invulnerability: Strength-smash, Weakness-Psionic
Regeneration: Strength-lethal, Weakness-Toxic
Stone Armor in Granite: Strength-smashing/lethal, Weakness-Psionic
Willpower: Strength-Psi, Weakness-Toxic
STRENGTHES AND WEAKNESSES RANGED EDITION
All Archetypes who are attacked by the same attack type (STRENGTH) as the primary ability will recieve a bonus to endurance and damage, while those attacked by the opposite attack type (WEAKNESS)
will have a small endurance and damage penalty. Any attackes labled PBAoE is still concidered ranged as it is the primary distance the Archetype engages from.
STRENGTHS
All Powersets being attacked by a STRENGTH wil recieve a 10% increase to damage and recovery while the effect/duration of attacks are on. The Maximum benifit is 10%.
1) Smashing: Strength- Smashing
2) Lethal: Strength- Lethal
3) Energy: Strength- Energy
4) Negative: Strength- Negative
5) Fire: Strength- Fire
6) Cold: Strength- Cold
7) Psionic: Strength- Psionic
8) Toxic: Strength- Toxic
WEAKNESSES
All Powersets being attacked by a WEAKNESS will recieve a 10% decrease to damage and recovery while the effect/durattion of attacks are on. The Maximum penalty is 10%.
1) Smashing: Weakness- Psionic
2) Lethal: Weakness- Toxic
3) Energy: Weakness- Negative
4) Negative: Weakness- Energy
5) Fire: Weakness- Cold
6) Cold: Weakness- Fire
7) Psionic: Weakness- Smashing
8) Toxic: Weakness- Lethal
In addition to the introduction to STRENGTH AND WEAKNESS I suggest the following changes be impiminted.
BASIC POWER CHANGES
1) Set ALL POWERS (primary, secondary, inherent, and effects) to PvE levels before any of the following changes
WHY? The game functions best around the PvE system it was founded on also this helps ease of transition between PvE and PvP for new powers introduced to the game.
2) ALL POWERS vs. Enemy require to hit checks, to include but not limited to targeted AoE's such as Radiation Infection, Enervating Field, Darkest Night and Snow Storm.
WHY? Because nothing you do in a PvP environment regardless of genre should be automatic.
3) Remove travel supressions
WHY? Part of the CoH love is the speed at which the game is played
4) Remove defense soft cap
WHY? With all the additions in pools, AT's, and IO's accuracy and tohit can be piled on in great amounts, add buffs and or debuffs and defense can be easily overcome.. even with two 3% defense all IO's
ADVANCED POWER CHANGES
1) Stone Armor powersets geta pull (modified TP foe) added to the power Taunt.
WHY? Because as the game stands you can not control distance of TP unless you are dragging your locator across the ground. You can not change direction while TPing, you can not use "follow".
This will help Stone Armor toons become a semi useful part of a PvP environment and/or Team..
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Quote:I agree with this... besides many times your psi baddies can be pulled to a corner or melee range switching them to an easier form of damage to mitigate.Originally Posted by Finduilas
The reason I chose not to go for Psi def or resists with my Invul tanks is that to get a meaningful amount of either, you really have to dedicate your build to that and not much else. -
I would suggest Invul myself.
I agree... since Invul has the better taunt aura which fits your tanking need, and being new for the most part to tanking I also think having a click heal (dull pain) will be easier to manage than trying to make the best of your regen with O.K. resists and defense. -
Quote:NP Blue I'm not offended either and thank you for clarify'n.. tone is so hard to read, I try to pick my words the best I can.. but mostly am the suxor at doing a good job with it. :)Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Oh, I didn't mean to say he can't do it, and I didn't mean to offend you by using the term misleading back at you (I wasn't offended by your term for the record, and hope you weren't by mine). I have used just Rock Armor, Minerals and Rooted (and of course Mudpots) to lead tank, but I also have Granite - which honestly makes more sense from an endurance management standpoint, but I digress.
My only point was that I was confused by his question - why roll a stoner without granite when, for the most part in lead tank situations, when there are other all defense sets (okay, mostly defense sets) that do it better than stone sans granite. If he wants to, more power to him, and he absolutely can do it, but I'm just confused is all.
Good luck! -
Quote:True true... LOL then it all depemds on the roll.. regardless at times defense just epic fails.Originally Posted by Psiphon
Against non psi mobs Ice will be far more survivable because of Chilling Embrace, it has -32% recharge and -14 damage - this equates to 46 % resistance to all damage types from mobs in melee.
Personally I've found Psi to be a problem on my Ice Tank - I was running at +4 x8 on radio missions without much problem till I got an Arachnos mission. My nose hit the pavement within a minute of entering and most of that was in Hibernate.
I checked the logs and found the Fortunatas had a 95% chance to hit me.
Good point on CE!!
To the OP you can do it! It just might not be as easy as Ice... but you can do it.
I was on my Icer the other night doing Lady Grey and the Stoner we had fell often and hard while I got psi'ed from range once.
Bottom line is learn "YOUR" tank and you can do just as well as others in much safer sets! Have fun with your Stone -
Quote:Much better defense again.... vs. a soft cap is still 5% tohit... and Ice still has no defense vs. Psi which I didn't mind fisleading. But OK. IT's fairly minor but you also gain 10-15% resistance vs. s/l damage with Stone vs. 0% with Ice, I believe fire remains the same in the 20-30% range while the cold numbers strongly favor Ice.Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
That's somewhat misleading too. Ice will have MUCH better defense numbers, no movement penalty, a burst regen/recovery power (Hibernate), a burst end/defense power (Energy Absorption), much more aggro management, and the only thing they give up when compared to stone without granite is Regen and psi defense, and there's not that much psi in this game in bulk enough to manage. Even carnies, save for illusionists and MI's don't do that much psi damage; nor do Rikti, which is how I can tank Rikti and Carnies in Granite as opposed to dropping down to stone armor/minerals/rooted.
If it came down to it, I'm not sure I would play stone without granite over Ice for just about any reason.
True no movment penalty for Ice and it resists slow too.. I didn't know that was part of the discussion. Being kinda directed toward TP is a bummer but thats Stone
I also mentioned a guiding factor "could" be Hibernate vs. regen through Rooted,and although I didn't spell out what the powers did I hardley find what I said misleading to the point of correction and maybe I used a wrong word, instead of misleading maybe I should of said something else.
I agree with most of the descriptions you are giving but saying I am misleading is like saying you were because you forgot to mention you can't do anything in Hibernate since you are untouchable/phased and could lose aggro... and that just isnt so. You brought some points but are far friom misleading... again maybe my fauty for choice of words.
True EA gives endurance and a some defense but then again you are leaving out that Rooted protects from endurance drain.
I never said you needed lots of psi protection but since you brought it up lets not forget about the other Psi baddies to include late game Clocks, and since you brought Carnies into it Rooted works wonders vs. end drain while in melee... EA is nice for Ice but a nice AoE can still leave you out of end and detoggled at times.
I know most players would agree with your position about playing Ice over Stone minus Granite. I was just trying to stay close to the posted question with a very basic answer. I was not misleading... most of the points you brought up were either not asked or I touched on (Hibernate vs. Regen). I left out points because they were not asked and wanted to stay on topic.. and you left out some complete details also. I just tried to post a direct response to a direction a player may have been steared because of information, it was only an attempt to clarify that one position not to break down the complete set.
Anywho my fault on the verbage I guess... I guess the bottom line is you can/could lead without Granite but most players frown apon it. -
Quote:Aesthetics... OK.Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
If you want to play a stone tank without Granite, I see no reason why someone wouldn't choose Ice Armor instead, with the 2 damage auras, and the better (and easier to softcap) defense, other than maybe aesthetics.
I do, however, believe that you should make sure that you can tank on 4 man teams without granite because Granite is overkill at that point, and you, and your team, is better off having you out of granite.
A small correction though, Ice does not have 2 damage auras CE does no damage.
A smal opinion too
The statment on defense is a bit misleading. Stone will have much better psi defense compared to Ice and at the point of softcapp'n 4 other damage types... better is kind of a stretch. They both fall short in fire and cold.
I believe the choice then comes down to regen vs. Hibernate -
Quote:I would disagree with this. The way it reads one would may never believe that an Ice Tank could be the lead/alpha Tank.Originally Posted by je_saist
yes / no / not really.
Yes, you can tank without granite. The big problem is, you don't get very many resists through IO's... and while you can soft-cap your defenses very easily... anything that gets through your defenses is going to hit for full damage.
You can get around this by focusing on recharges. On my own stone-tank I'm hitting 70hp+ per second regeneration rate and a max hit point of 3k. Theoretically you can perma Earth's Embrace... and if you get to that point... well. Getting hit doesn't matter as much.
I would say yes you can lead without granite atleast as well as an Icer can, and with Minerals at a few times better than a more than one of the sets.
As mentioned your Stoney minus Granite is going to love using regen as its "tier 9". Soft cap the defense and add regen when possible. You should be fine for most situations execpt the player quips because your build lacks Granite!
Mine sits at slightly above the soft cap for all but f/c damage and the resistance is at roughly 50%.. s/l damage is resisted at 40% and regen is at 50 hps. I don't worry about much on her. Just remember Tanking is not only using your primary but secondaries and epics. pbaoe kd this pbaoe kd that.
Whatever you decide enjoy and have fun! -
When I went into RV I noticed my.. along with everyones defense drops. Is this a percentage drop or does it set all defense to an established percent for that zone?
Thanks all! -
As mentioned s/l is far more common and many fire attacks have a s/l part to them so at times you will be covered by your other defenses anyway.
tough vs. permafrost? Tough will take two selections to get vs. the one for permafrost what else is getting adjusted in your one or the other build? Do you think it is worth it?
37% fire defense.. permafrost adds resistance so I don't understand hw it is adjusting your defense value. I am assuming you don't have weave since you are thinking about tough. You may want to post your build. My thought is that you have devoted alot of slots and IO's to reach 37% defense to fire. A task I would not set for myself. -
OK, thank you for the response. I was running my Ice though and fighting npc's in a zone is kinda of.... well stinks when you lose one of your forms of dps, but oh well! Here's to relearning
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Well I am stepping back into the game as a whole and noticed that in PvP zones my Tankers damage toggles get detoggled often and that it "seems" that my Tanks get mezzed as much as my Blasters. Is this just the way it is or can a Tanker do anything about this?
Thanks -
I was playing on my Invul/ tank project yesterday and after the leader invited a blaster he mentioned the team make.. to include (me) a great Tank. Although I try to make sure every baddie is focused on me it was the defenders that made it work so well. The Dark with massive to-hit debuffs, the Cold with defense and hp boost and the empath with all it's goodness.
So... great defending, defenders! It's easy for a Tank to look great when the defenders are too! -
Quote:How does a Shield Tank not have room in it's build? Can you expand on this...Originally Posted by Smersh
Let's see...
A Dark Armor tank has endurance issues already, and a leadership toggle would cost too much endurance, especially if said DA tank is running Tough/Weave.
A Shields tanker runs Maneuvers to stack with Grant Cover and get that much more towards the softcap, but does not have room in the build for another leadership power.
A Fire Armor tanker decides that running assault to eke out about one more point of damage per tick is hardly worthwhile.
Anyone who thinks that a 10.5% damage buff is hardly worthwhile in a teaming environment.
Tankers simply do not have any damage buffs or debuffs that can be leveraged in a team environment to make that TO's worth of damage buff truly worthwhile. It becomes purely a concept issue.
http://coh.redtomax.com/data/powers/...ault&at=Tanker -
I would go with Invul... better aura than WP, no movment restrictions like Stone, dont need kb IO's or acrobatics like Fire and Dark, and a bit easier to manage alphas than Ice IMO.