Deus_Otiosus

I really hope that's the case across the board.

I'd much prefer to see new, AT tailored APP/PPPs.

For several reasons really.

It will (hopefully) cut down on accidental overpowered combos, allow ATs to retain some level of uniqueness and will also not pigeonhole ATs into the roles of their so-called "counterparts".

I would take it as soon as it's available, so L8.

If that's just not an option, put off Focus and grab Follow Up at 18.

I'm not sure if you've played many Brutes, but you want attacks early, you want them to have End reduction, and you want them to hit.


It works on Brutes.

The problem is, since you're working on just SOs, you will really be hindering yourself with only 5 slots, no end rdx and no rech rdx.



Follow Up is your To Hit bonus.

That's why you take it early, and try and work it into your attacks as often as it's available.

If you must have 2 ACC and Follow Up, then remove the rech rdx and keep the End Rdx in the 6th slot for your attacks.

Claws is light on endurance, but as a Brute it's imperative you keep attacking.

It's a mistake.

You want it early.


The +damage is nice in the early levels when building and maintaining fury can sometimes be more difficult.

The +To Hit is completely invaluable.



I ignored the idea of eventually slotting IOs sets where you have SOs now.

You'd be better off just swapping to a second IO build, or respeccing.


Some things were underslotted (attacks) others were overslotted (resistance toggles).

You will get more end reduction from reducing the endurance cost of your attacks than you will from double slotting toggles with end rdx SOs.


I also dropped the second Acc SO from most of your attacks, because you really should be fine with just 1 SO. Except focus, which you want to consistently hit.


Two questions.

1) Do you actually have the vet reward that will allow you to skip pre-requisite powers to take fly the way you have?

2) Do you really want fly that badly? You'll be much better off with Super Jump in my opinion.


Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.621
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Tiger Town Fanatic: Level 50 Science Brute
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping

Villain Profile:
------------
Level 1: Strike Acc(A), EndRdx(3), Dmg(9), Dmg(11), Dmg(15), RechRdx(45)
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage ResDam(A), ResDam(43)
Level 2: Slash Acc(A), EndRdx(3), Dmg(9), Dmg(11), Dmg(15), RechRdx(46)
Level 4: Temp Invulnerability EndRdx(A), ResDam(5), ResDam(5), ResDam(17)
Level 6: Spin Acc(A), EndRdx(7), Dmg(7), Dmg(13), Dmg(17), RechRdx(50)
Level 8: Swift Run(A)
Level 10: Dull Pain RechRdx(A), RechRdx(13), RechRdx(25), Heal(29), Heal(31), Heal(45)
Level 12: Fly Flight(A)
Level 14: Health Heal(A), Heal(43), Heal(43)
Level 16: Unyielding EndRdx(A), ResDam(23), ResDam(29), ResDam(33)
Level 18: Focus Acc(A), Acc(19), EndRdx(19), Dmg(23), Dmg(27), RechRdx(46)
Level 20: Stamina EndMod(A), EndMod(21), EndMod(21)
Level 22: Kick Acc(A)
Level 24: Tough EndRdx(A), EndRdx(25), ResDam(34), ResDam(34), ResDam(34)
Level 26: Eviscerate Acc(A), Acc(27), Dmg(31), Dmg(31), Dmg(33), EndRdx(50)
Level 28: Invincibility EndRdx(A), DefBuff(36), DefBuff(37), DefBuff(39)
Level 30: Resist Energies ResDam(A), ResDam(45)
Level 32: Shockwave Acc(A), Acc(33), Dmg(37), Dmg(37), Dmg(39), Empty(48)
Level 35: Tough Hide DefBuff(A), DefBuff(36), DefBuff(36)
Level 38: Weave EndRdx(A), EndRdx(39), DefBuff(40), DefBuff(40), DefBuff(40)
Level 41: Follow Up Acc(A), Acc(42), RechRdx(42), RechRdx(42), Dmg(48), Dmg(50)
Level 44: Resist Elements ResDam(A), ResDam(46)
Level 47: Combat Jumping DefBuff(A)
Level 49: Unstoppable RechRdx(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl Acc(A)
Level 1: Sprint EndRdx(A)
Level 2: Rest RechRdx(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 0: Ninja Run



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Follow up doesn't have a crash.

It never suddenly drops your end by 25, nor drops your Damage to Zero.

It never crashes your defense.


So I don't see a problem.






It's not just an "annoying aspect", it's a balancing point.

Suffering a loss of endurance when you're not prepared for it is not the same as choosing to use similar chunk of end at a time of your choosing.

Not being able to kill things can compromise your survivability, depending on the scenario.

And before you can get rage perma, the loss of defense compromises your survivability as well.



Interesting point.

Stick with the scrapper since he's already L39.

I'll get you started.


Go to this website.

Download Mids' Hero Designer.


Work out a build, and post it here.

I'll come back and take a look at what you have.



Teach a man to fish and all that.

Your goals, on that budget, are totally unreasonable.

It's just not going to happen.

Keep in mind, you can double stack Follow Up and it has no crash. The two are not total equals, but that's part of their unique charm imo.

I see your point about Rage's 100% up time, but I've played several other high damaging sets and I don't think Super Strength's damage would be on par with other sets without rage.

Considering you can get rage just shy of perma with just 3 SOs, it seems to me that it was designed to be up all the time.


It's not useless in high-defense scenarios.

No other buildup-like power is in a set that relies on the buildup so heavily for damage parity with other sets.

If you have numbers that prove otherwise, I would be happy to listen however.

Bill, while I don't agree with the Da Captains arguements, I think you're over simplifying - and not taking into consideration your own skill or the skill of any other top end player vs. the average player who might not be capable of surviving the amount of mobs it takes to generate fury quickly.

As for using attacks...

I just went to the RWZ Vanguard base and used the practice dummies in the armory.

145% Global Recharge with hasten running, hasten's downtime was irrelevant as I waited for it to be recharged before starting the test and both tests were completed in less than or equal to 2 minutes.

These aren't exact times, but they're close enough.


Attack Chain 1 = Punch > Boxing > Brawl

50% Fury took approx 30s

90% Fury took approx 50s


Attack Chain 2 = KO Blow > Gloom1 > Haymaker > Punch > Gloom2 > Haymaker

*.5s gap between punch and Gloom2

50% Fury took approx 74s

90% Fury took approx 120s



So under the best circumstances, where I would do no damage of any real value, I can be at 50% fury in 30s chaining the worst of the worst attacks. This would be in any situation where I either don't have enough enemies present, or someone else has aggro to prevent me from using that to generate fury.

30s is a long time. That's practically an entire fight in the CoH/V combat system.


If others are interested in doing some more tests, one test just using enemy attacks and another using both fast personal attacks as well as being attacked by different sized mobs - that would be interesting to see.

Some things to think about would be enemy type, number of enemies (maybe something like 3 mobs / 7 mobs / 10 mobs) and survivability levels across the full L1-50 spectrum.

Don't all of those other powersets have build up/soul drain/follow up, etc?

So double stacked, or triple stacked in the Bill Z 250% recharge example, Follow Up plus all of those "...damage auras, pool powers, epics, temp powers, and vet powers...: are ok?

How about with Soul Drain, is it ok then? On a set capable of some of the best top end ST attack chains, that has the best utility of any melee set - yet can add damage auras, PPP/APP TAoEs - with a 30s duration BU.


You can't say rage is borked because it affects non SS powers, since all of the other build ups do as well.



Frozen Aura is Cold damage and not Smashing, this is an important point.

Actually, now that you mention Ice Melee I'd be curious where it falls in Bill Z's ST DPS chart for brutes - using the SOs only criteria.


You also say Footstomp is too strong, yet it's the only PBAoE in the set - while there are other sets that have better ST damage as well as multiple PBAoEs.



Unless I'm mistaken you seem to be asking for an entire revamp of the set, which really is not that necessary and to be perfectly honest I lack faith the set would not end up in a situation like EM.

Build it, post it.

I'll let you know if it stacks up to my survivability standards, which include being an alpha spawn breaker on the ITF/LGTF.






What it shows is that Gloom is really awesome and that players can do amazing things with insane levels of global recharge.



I'm sorry, but no it doesn't.

Gloom doesn't count as a part of the Super Strength powerset, because it isn't.

If you'd like to run the numbers for a pure SS attack chain with 250% rech, making sure to account for rage stacks and rage crashes I'd be happy to listen.

I'm sorry but that is a totally inaccurate picture of the thread in question.

Which can be found here

Here's what you either missed, or left out.

1) "Good Recharge"

250% Recharge is quite frankly, bordering on ludicrous.

Just so you're aware, I have a L50 SS/WP brute with 3 Purple sets, 4x LoTG 7.5s and a a bit of other recharge (5% I think) still doesn't have the 250% rech needed to run the attack chain you quoted. (Gloom is shy by about 25% Recharge in my particular build for the needed 250% - I have 65% Global Recharge, +70% from hasten and 90% in Gloom)

I could get him there, but it would require a loss in survivability.

So yes, it's doable but it will require build sacrifices as well as 5 purple sets & 4x 7.5 LoTGs. You also need to ED cap Rech Rdx at 100% in Gloom or find another 10% recharge from somewhere if you're at 90%.



2) The attack chain.

The jump in performance while somewhat due to double stacked rage from the previously mentioned 250% recharge, also has another critical source.

Gloom.

That's the attack chain that gets 212 DPS at 250% Rech with double stacked rage.




So, some final points.

• No power or powerset is balanced according to having 250% recharge.
• To reiterate, claiming SS is "overpowered" based on something like 90% global recharge before hasten & Rech Rdx slotting is added in is ridiculous as having that much recharge in and of itself is overpowered.
• It also doesn't account for Gloom, which is a major source of that ST DPS chains jump in performance.
• I specifically addressed gloom, and other PPP/APPs in my previous post. Feel free to re-read it.

Lastly, even though I could make a build with that much recharge, and double stack rage often - I wouldn't. My opinion is that suffering such frequent crashes would be more of a frustrating hindrance, and is only useful for vacuum testing pure DPS chains and not actual in-game play.

Place bids on things that have no hope of filling.

Unless of course you're on a halfway decent team.

At which point, you'd be doing more for you team with FM or Elm than you will with DM.


I think DM/SD is a great combo for soloing and doing scrapper challenges, but that synergy is mostly lost among the types of buffs you get on a team and the more AoE damage you can output the better.



Probably the best answer so far.

I do love KO Blow and I do very much agree that SS as a set does provides very solid AoE, but I disagree and I don't think it provides decent ST damage.

I've got more than a half a dozen Brutes at L50 and I can confidently say that without adding patron attacks, SS is definitely low on the ST damage as a set compared to others.

You can't really bring PPP/APPs into the equation either, because they let various sets do various things beyond their actual capability, so it's fair game at that point.


Here are some numbers, which while aren't the whole story do at least support the idea to an extent.

I hope Bill Z doesn't mind.

Original thread here

SS falls nearly at the bottom for Brute ST damage, Rage with 3 L50 Rech Rdx IOs would be just barely shy of perma. (different results for scrappers, unsure of Tankers).

On that list I've played Fiery, Claws, Warmace, Dark, Stone and Strength to 50, and while I wouldn't be able to place them that accurately I would be able to state that SS is definitely at the bottom compared to those primaries - and this is including rage.

Fiery is cleanly at the top, even though it also provides very solid AoE as well. This is mostly due to how fury affects DoTs I think, but FM as a set is still excellent in both ST and AoE damage.


Without Rage, Super strength as a set would be awful.

While the set is not perfectly balanced, I've grown to enjoy the way it plays - crash and all.

And while improvements to the set as a whole would be great, I'm extremely wary of any "fixes" that the devs might make.

I do quite a bit of soloing, all of my TF (LGTF/ITF) play is done with a crew of regulars. But unfortunately for whatever reason, I end up pugging on the way to 50.

I use a few server channels, but most people play blueside.

But I digress.



Thanks for working out the numbers.


Maybe I'm sleepy.

Brutes only need 64% fury to equate to scrapper average damage?

The extra 26% or so fury, puts them how far ahead?


What happens with say, +100% outside damage buffs?




On the whole, I tend to get a whole lot more +DEF buffs than +RES buffs (which is the main Tanker Advantage outside of HP post_IOs) - I'm always giddy if someone shows up on a Therm or Sonic (especially on the LGTF, Thaw > Famine )

The point would be to factor in all of the times a brute might not be at 90% fury on a team.

It really is a great deal more often than you suggest.


Is this solo?

Life on teams is never so simple.

If you don't think so you've never been a Brute on a team with several other brutes, or maybe 2-3 doms and an energy blast corr, or dear god the multi-MM PETS ARE EVERYWHERE bonanza.

A lot can ruin a low level brutes day.


60% Fury, does that allow for a comparable amount of damage to a scrapper?

I never said it was really.

I said there's more to getting and maintaining full fury than there is to saturating AAO which requires...standing there.

I also said there are a lot of players that either dislike the mechanic or can't get it to work for them.

I'm not one of them, it works for me most of the time.

But there are times, usually on lower level brutes, where I simply can not control enough of the situation to get fury going.

It's usually due to the random nature of PUG team make up, which while is often forgotten about and ignored in discussions like these - happens to make up a significant portion of play for a lot of players.

I thought something like a limited use/long recharge power that allowed Tankers to absorb some portion of another player(s) incoming damage might be interesting.

Something that would allow Tankers to make greater use of their top end survivability levels.

Although I think a higher aggro cap could work as well, would also be a bit easier to balance most likely.



That makes Fury harder to build than saturating AAO, which simply requires you to be surrounded. Someone else can have all of the aggro, and you will still be able to saturate AAO.


Nearly every Brute secondary has a taunt aura of some kind.

Every single Brute attack has a taunt component.

Both of which will see you pulling aggro.



On a team, as a brute, you WILL have aggro. It's that simple.

Due to your aura, do to your attacks.

The only way to control it is to stay out of combat, or let someone else have all the aggro which relegates you to attack dependant fury generation.


Attack dependent fury generation is not as good as allowing aggro and incoming attacks to work their magic on your fury bar.

Exactly my point.



If you want to insist that building fury through attacks alone is viable, then we need a fairer DPS analysis and comparison between Brutes and Scrappers that doesn't show the brute at full fury from the start - punching an enemy that won't dissolve in a matter of seconds.

Players like you and I are fine with the fury mechanic. However, I've read more than enough times on the boards, and had enough conversations in game with other players to see that not everyone feels the same way about fury.

Quite a lot of people dislike the mechanic, and prefer the no maintenance appeal of scrappers.


I play the way you do, but it most certainly requires a good build.

It's certainly not being done on every secondary, at every level pre-IO sets.


Buffs/Debuffs make most content trivial. Is this really a problem with Brutes?

I think it will be more apparent than you state, when blueside players with minimal villain experience try and substitute their lowbie brute for a tanker and faceplant as a result.


Actually, your own ideas on /SD illustrate how I feel about Brute survivability needs and fury.


You can substitute Fury/Brutes for AAO in the quote, and be pretty close to the mark.

I think most people who play scrappers for the unfettered fun they are will continue to do so. Not needing to chase fury, or not wanting to be "volunteered" as tank for the team (even when you're not really built for it) being the easy examples.


I think people who love tankers, will still play tankers. Primarily because while leveling to 50 and pre-IOs Brutes lack the survivability those players would be accustomed to on a Tanker.



And I think a smaller, number crunching, power gaming bunch (myself included) will enjoy Brutes for what they can be capable of once they have a truckload of inf and IOs dumped into them, and if they can learn to enjoy the fury mechanic.

Don't be so hasty....



You forgot to turn RttC to 10 enemies. That should be more like 1000% Regen for RttC.

Not to mention the big truckload of hit points you gain from HPT.

Dark would be good, Thermal would be good.

As was suggested, rad or kin would be great choices.



But definitely avoid traps.

Optimum depends on the situation, what enemy group your facing.

Some groups set at x4 players will be fine, and other set at x2 will see you /faceplanting.


Death means very little in this game, so you really should just play with the settings and see what you can handle.


From L1-10 I might not even increase the number of enemies at all.



The most important point is, when you are solo you can turn bosses off.

When there is more than one player on a team, even if you have bosses set for off they will still spawn.

Still waiting for that downtime calculation.