Curious as to how you treated Soul Drain this go around. You assumed 1, 3, or 10 targets?
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3 targets for Soul Drain. Figured since we were going for middle of the road performance, that was the way to go.
I also used 7.5% crit rate unless the power specifically called for a higher rate. I did give Storm Kick at 15% chance, although it probably should have been only 12.5% to keep with the other averaging. I might fix that later but for the purposes of this run, I think it matters little. EDIT: And looking at the numbers, MA gets a worse rap than it probably should.
Be well, people of CoH.
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EDIT: And looking at the numbers, MA gets a worse rap than it probably should.
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*Looks at his four martial artists...*
Yes, it does.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
Considering the poor AE damage Martial Arts gets they deserve it. They also have among the highest EPS and gain less from recharge than most (you've got a very low recharge count). I think it's very interesting for Brutes, Energy Melee beats Super Strength by 30 DPS. Animations that lasts for an eternity ftw?
I guess it's time to dust off my old Inv/EM tanker... 
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I think it's very interesting for Brutes, Energy Melee beats Super Strength by 30 DPS.
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I think SS and SM's lowish performance is due to the crappy attack chains I have for them.
If anyone can tighten any of the chains up using the same lvl 50 basic IOs only rule, I'd be happy to adjust the spreadsheet.
Be well, people of CoH.
You're quite right about Stone Melee atleast, a chain of SS, SF, HM, SM, SF, HB, SF, HM, SS, SF, SM, HM, SF, HB, SF, SM gets 159 DPS, placing it in second place. Needs two recharge in everything but Hurl Boulder, that needs none. Might be better chains, I might have made a mistake. Now for Super Strength....
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You're quite right about Stone Melee atleast, a chain of SS, SF, HM, SM, SF, HB, SF, HM, SS, SF, SM, HM, SF, HB, SF, SM gets 159 DPS, placing it in second place. Needs two recharge in everything but Hurl Boulder, that needs none. Might be better chains, I might have made a mistake. Now for Super Strength....
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You dropped the enhanced damage accordingly correct? Geeez, that's a long chain.
Be well, people of CoH.
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You're quite right about Stone Melee atleast, a chain of SS, SF, HM, SM, SF, HB, SF, HM, SS, SF, SM, HM, SF, HB, SF, SM gets 159 DPS, placing it in second place. Needs two recharge in everything but Hurl Boulder, that needs none. Might be better chains, I might have made a mistake. Now for Super Strength....
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You dropped the enhanced damage accordingly correct? Geeez, that's a long chain.
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It's 2 connected modified Seismic Smash attack chain chunks. I've generated some equally convoluted ones with other powersets.
Wohoo! 129 DPS for Super Strength! I rule at attack chains!
Ehrm... Back to the drawing board I guess. SS is really hurt by your "No pool powers" rule, since all pool attacks except Kick are better than Jab. Boxing is almost identical only it deals more damage, cost more endurance and has half a second higher recharge.
So when is someone going to start crying about how it has been shown that brutes do more damage and are harder to kill?
Nice work btw.
And yes EM can put out a pretty decent punch still vs single targets. I just hated using mine on teams since just about any time I used ET or TF I ended up beating the hell out of a corpse by the time the animation finished thanks to AOE of the rest of the team.
How much fury does this assume?
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Got SS up to 130. I guess you can't unsuck SS. KOB>HM>P>H>P>HM>J>H>P, in case you wanted to update your spreadsheet. Requires 2 recharges in everything but Jab.
And yes, I update the damage enhancements when I add extra recharges.
So here's the real question:
Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?
Be well, people of CoH.
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How much fury does this assume?
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hehe just about to ask that myself. If it is more than 85% I would suggest putting it down to that level. Mainly because solo that is about normal if you are going from spawn to spawn vs hearding several groups together to feed fury.
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So here's the real question:
Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?
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From my point of view, no not really. While I do place a high value on this type of analysis, I still feel it still requires too many assumptions to make a clear cut statement of Brutes = Scrappers or one is superior to the other. I recognized you are partly addressing concerns brought in the first thread.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
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Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?
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I think the appropriate question to ask would be "should Brutes be doing as much damage as Scrappers if they're harder to kill?" not "do Brutes really do more damage than Scrappers?"
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Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?
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I think the appropriate question to ask would be "should Brutes be doing as much damage as Scrappers if they're harder to kill?" not "do Brutes really do more damage than Scrappers?"
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Gonna disagree with this position as well. While it's possible for Brutes to obtain and exceed scrapper level damage, it's neither guaranteed nor absolute. That alone makes the ~15% (or higher) superior survivability balanced from my perspective.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
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Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?
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I think the appropriate question to ask would be "should Brutes be doing as much damage as Scrappers if they're harder to kill?" not "do Brutes really do more damage than Scrappers?"
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They only do this part of the time. Solo it is pretty easy to do. On teams it tends to be much more difficult depending on the team.
With doms or trollers, stuff is not hitting back as often so it takes longer for fury to build, Blasters and corruptors normally have decent aoe attacks meaning stuff dies fast enough that you do not get to build fury. Other brutes or a tank on the team means that you have another fighting for aggro.
A scrapper on those same teams would be doing full damage the entire time.
My real question is SHOULD damage for Brutes = Scrappers? What is the design role difference? W
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So here's the real question:
Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?
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From my point of view, no not really. While I do place a high value on this type of analysis, I still feel it still requires too many assumptions to make a clear cut statement of Brutes = Scrappers or one is superior to the other. I recognized you are partly addressing concerns brought in the first thread.
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Let me rephrase the question:
Even with the assumptions in place (and I'm unsure what assumptions could be further reduced or removed,) shouldn't this analysis show enough parity between the damage output of the two archetypes that we can dismiss the topic?
As for higher mitigation for brutes, I've already stated that I agree. I think brutes and scrappers should have an equal 80% cap.
EDIT: HelinCarnate makes a good point, though. On teams fury generation can be greatly impaired. But on those same teams, they're more likely to be buffed mitigation-wise. That may be the balance point.
Be well, people of CoH.
He's assuming a rather conservative 75% fury. I'm still having fun with attack chains. I think I just put Battle Axe into a top position, you may really want to control this one, since it boosts them up to 152.1 DPS, for a nice fourth place. The chain is Cleave>Chop>Swoop>Pendulum>0.14s>Ch op>Gash>0.136s.
Interesting reading.
An amazing amount of work!
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Even with the assumptions in place (and I'm unsure what assumptions could be further reduced or removed,) shouldn't this analysis show enough parity between the damage output of the two archetypes that we can dismiss the topic?
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As I understand it, your using identical attack chains across brutes and scrappers. For example, the ideal Dark Melee attack chain is not ideal for Fury Generation. Meaning a Dark Melee Brute would have to use a different attack chain to build fury and then shift to the ideal DM chain. That kind of variable affects the overall damage when measured over time. I suspect this would not be true across all shared primaries, but these minor disparities will always fuel the debate.
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Here we go again!
On the last run, there were complaints that gloom was problematic due to its rather high DPA. No problem. All power pool attacks are now ignored.
Others stated that such high recharge rates were unrealistic. Fair enough. Now only level 50 basic IOs are used. No hasten.
Most attacks are slotted 1acc/1end-red/1rec-red/3dam
Several high recharge are slotted 1acc/1end-red/2rec-red/2dam
Buffs (blindingfeint, followup, rage, souldrain, buildup) have 3 rec-red
I did not include DualBlade combos
I did include Quills for Spines (1end-red/3dam)
Brutes on average do 3.177% more damage than scrappers.
Scrapper SS is 11.626% better than Brute SS. This is due to rage being almost perma and granting a higher buff plus scrapper AT mod being higher.
Brute FM does 15.606% more damage than Scrap FM because the extra DoT damage is affected by fury but not affected by criticals.
Similar issue with Spines.
Here is the much cleaner spreadsheet.
And here's the new chart:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Powerset DPS EPS
Brute Fiery 172.6 3.1
Brute Energy 157.5 3.3
Scrap Energy 151 3.3
Scrap Claws 149.6 2.9
Brute Claws 149.5 2.9
Scrap Fiery 149.3 3.1
Brute Warmace 148 3.7
Brute Dark 143.7 3.1
Brute Martial Arts 143.7 3.6
Scrap Strength 142.1 2.9
Scrap Dark 141.6 3.1
Scrap Martial Arts 141.5 3.6
Scrap Warmace 141 3.7
Brute Stone 137.5 3.5
Scrap Dual Blades 136.3 3.5
Brute Dual Blades 134.8 3.5
Scrap Stone 131.8 3.5
Brute Katana 131.2 3.2
Brute Battleaxe 129.3 3.2
Scrap Katana 128.6 3.2
Brute Strength 127.3 2.9
Brute Broadsword 124.9 3.1
Scrap Battleaxe 123.3 3.2
Scrap Broadsword 121.7 3.1
Brute Electric 106.6 2.9
Scrap Electric 103.6 2.9
Brute Spines 93.4 1.6
Scrap Spines 80.1 1.6
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Be well, people of CoH.