Brought War Mace up to 149.2 DPS. All of these are brute values, btw. Chain is Clobber>Pulverize>Jawb>Shatter>Pulveri ze>Ccontrol>Clobber>Jawb>Pulverize> Shatter>Ccontrol>0.28s.
Maybe I should do a few Scrappers...
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My real question is SHOULD damage for Brutes = Scrappers? What is the design role difference? W
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sure it should
what the analysis doesnt show you is that (and correct me if i'm wrong) the harder the target ,the more often a scrapper will crit.
i was impressed watching powerforge's soloing of lord recluse - mostly for the sheer number of times MG and SL crit. those crits blow away anything a brute will do at 85 fury or so (about where a brute sits fighting a single target for a long time). i will say though that siphon life heals a brute for substantially more than a scrapper. those 220 heals he was getting at 50 are about half of what an io'd out dm brute can get from the attack due to the higher hitpoints and higher hp cap. dm/willpower siphon life heals are huge no matter how you slot it thanks to hpt.
but the crits. crit% is higher vs. bosses/lts/eb/av right? and maintaining fury on a team where spawns are not tightly controlled and kept immobile around the brute (ie..just about any team one joins) makes it rough on fury
i'm a little surprised that you have hurl boulder in your attack c hain there umbral. i was under the impresison it wasnt all that hot of an attack.
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Brought War Mace up to 149.2 DPS. All of these are brute values, btw. Chain is Clobber>Pulverize>Jawb>Shatter>Pulveri ze>Ccontrol>Clobber>Jawb>Pulverize> Shatter>Ccontrol>0.28s.
Maybe I should do a few Scrappers...
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Can't use crowd control. No cone 90degrees or larger is allowed.
Be well, people of CoH.
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what the analysis doesnt show you is that (and correct me if i'm wrong) the harder the target ,the more often a scrapper will crit.
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Crits normalized at 7.5% to cover all minions, LT,s bosses, EBs, AVs, pylons, monsters, etc. From what I've been told, that number should probably be lower considering that the % of minions we face might be higher than all the rest. But since I don't know the facts on that, I stuck with 7.5% on crits.
Against Lord Recluse, a brute is going to be pegging out at 90-95% fury for a 180%-190% base damage buff.
Be well, people of CoH.
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On top of that, while I do tend to utilize low tier attacks more often on brutes *while leveling them up* once they get into the late game, they tend to utilize only optimal DPS chains as fury generation is just not a problem for me due to soloing.
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I'm looking at this discussion here, where Siphon Life and Midnight's Grasp are labled break even attack (nor fury lost or gained). So in an ideal DM attack chain of using Smite, Siphon Life, Midnight's Grasp, and some filler, SL and MG do not contribute to your fury. No matter at what level of recharge you achieve, the problem would persist.
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My real question is SHOULD damage for Brutes = Scrappers? What is the design role difference?
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Scrappers damage is scrappers damage, they can pick and choose their battles and pass off the agro. Brutes NEED to seek out combat to reach scrapper levels and place themselves in danger with mob diving one after the other without a pause for breath (whilst scrappers lose nothing from taking a breather) Thats why they need their higher HPs, thats why they have aoe taunt and not confront, by their very nature they will be in more danger because they need to be to function.
Whats their design role difference? Scrapper = scrapper, Brute = scranker. They had to step up to the red side tank role due to the hole that the devs left when they thought MMs would make a good tank class......
IMO the comparable performance (with caveats) is a triumph as its not just "rogue combinations" allowing for above par performance like fire/kins
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On top of that, while I do tend to utilize low tier attacks more often on brutes *while leveling them up* once they get into the late game, they tend to utilize only optimal DPS chains as fury generation is just not a problem for me due to soloing.
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I'm looking at this discussion here, where Siphon Life and Midnight's Grasp are labled break even attack (nor fury lost or gained). So in an ideal DM attack chain of using Smite, Siphon Life, Midnight's Grasp, and some filler, SL and MG do not contribute to your fury. No matter at what level of recharge you achieve, the problem would persist.
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That concept appears to ignore that incoming attack attempts also build fury. Building attack chains that only utilize the attacks with activations short enough to perpetually build fury will mean that you're missing out on a lot of damage output.
In other words, it's not a position that I find relevant.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Brought War Mace up to 149.2 DPS. All of these are brute values, btw. Chain is Clobber>Pulverize>Jawb>Shatter>Pulveri ze>Ccontrol>Clobber>Jawb>Pulverize> Shatter>Ccontrol>0.28s.
Maybe I should do a few Scrappers...
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Can't use crowd control. No cone 90degrees or larger is allowed.
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Ok... why? It does push both Axes and War Maces end costs up to about 4 EPS, is that it?
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what the analysis doesnt show you is that (and correct me if i'm wrong) the harder the target ,the more often a scrapper will crit.
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Crits normalized at 7.5% to cover all minions, LT,s bosses, EBs, AVs, pylons, monsters, etc. From what I've been told, that number should probably be lower considering that the % of minions we face might be higher than all the rest. But since I don't know the facts on that, I stuck with 7.5% on crits.
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I always use the 10% chance of critical (except for attacks with a flat 15% chance). My reasoning is that I couldn't care less about my DPS vs. minions. Minions are for burst and AoE damage. But I think normalizing to 7.5% is just fine too. As long as you're consistent, I think anything from 5% to 10% is just fine.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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In other words, it's not a position that I find relevant.
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Fair enough, I can respect that position, but it's part of the reason while the debate will remain unsettled. For me, it remains highly relevant as my DM/DA scrapper will by far out damage my DM/DA brute due to the poor combination, as DA also creates limitations on fury generation.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
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what the analysis doesnt show you is that (and correct me if i'm wrong) the harder the target ,the more often a scrapper will crit.
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Crits normalized at 7.5% to cover all minions, LT,s bosses, EBs, AVs, pylons, monsters, etc. From what I've been told, that number should probably be lower considering that the % of minions we face might be higher than all the rest. But since I don't know the facts on that, I stuck with 7.5% on crits.
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[u]I always use the 10% chance of critical[u] (except for attacks with a flat 15% chance). My reasoning is that I couldn't care less about my DPS vs. minions. Minions are for burst and AoE damage. But I think normalizing to 7.5% is just fine too. As long as you're consistent, I think anything from 5% to 10% is just fine.
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This.
I normally use the 10% basis as well when configuring damage charts on my Scrappers. The reason being is just as Werner pointed out, who cares about "minions?!?" I pretty much 1-2 shot those weak meat sacks with simple AoE's on my Scrappers...I could care less if I crit or not on them, heck, I could care less if they were alive or dead, hell on my Invuln and WP I want them alive lol. So I don't think minion crit chances should even figure into this equation honestly.
Where I "do" care for Crits is against anything "higher" than an Lt. (even LT's are a joke for the most part). As such, I use the 10% Crit Chance as my average on most every case.
I'd...rather timidly (you've already put alot of work in this...)...suggest that 10% be the "basis" for Criticals. It's not a huge-o-difference, but it is a difference which might make up for that "slight" difference we're seeing (3% or so) between Brutes and Scrappers damage output.
Besser, yes. End burn is too high on the large cones/aoes.
Werner and DM, I have no issues correcting all the crits to 10% if that's what my scrapper/brute brothers and sisters call for. EDIT: Except those calling for 15% as noted. Also, I may go through some of the brute only sets that I "proliferated" and give 1 power in each of them a 15% crit if it makes sense to do so.
Des, while it has already been determined that Scrap DM will out damage Brute DM when SD is saturated, at that point fury will also be capped due to incoming attacks and we see that as the numbers fueling SD fall, Brute DM takes the lead.
Be well, people of CoH.
Also, I literally just got done running about 3 Co-Op SF's, back to back with different Brutes (lvl 50 Fm/FA, Dm/ELA, Em/ELA) and the ONLY Brute that was able to keep his fury at 75% for most the mission was my Dm/ELA Brute, which isn't surprising given Dm's astonishing ability at generating fury with it's fast attacks.
For the other two Brutes (FM/FA and EM/ELA) I was literally having to break my neck to maintain anywhere near 50% Fury on an 8 man team! It basically just did not happen. Add into the fact that the team was your average pickup team (not bad at all, but no powergamer team either) and we [u]weren't "continually" on the move[u] as many pit stops were made along the missions, as well as simple "organization" issues, and my Fury completely bottomed out well over a dozen times during these SF missions (not counting the travel time between missions).
There were a couple Scrappers on the teams as well each time, and in just about each and every instance, they were outdamaging my Brutes. I'd go help them tag out a boss, and a couple *Crit*Crit*Crit* seconds later...oops...guess I'm too late. These Scrappers, in most cases, put my Brute to utter shame in damage. Only when I was actually able to build up 90% fury (I have RARELY ever seen 95%) was my damage comparable in any way, and the only time that ever happened during these teamed missions was when I'd go toe-to-toe with the AV and his mob (generating full aggro from all) and spammed attacks like mad. Even then, I'd argue that the Scrapper was still dishing out at least as much damage as me, if not more, and he didn't have to worry about a Fury bar depleating...
Basically, sure, while solo my Brute can achieve an "average" of around 75% fury if I keep on the move constantly, but when teamed, especially with 6 or more players, building and especially "maintaining" Fury becomes a true chore and near impossible given how most average teams make runs. So the Scrapper will have the edge in damage about 90% of the time. However, about 10% of the time the Brute will just barely "catch-up" to a Scrapper's damage output, which I find nothing wrong with. Do people realize just "how much" damage that same Brute "missed out on" while "building UP" to that potential? In relative terms, the Scrapper is WAY WAY ahead by the time the Brute is able to meet his damage potential, and in order to maintain it, the Brute would be forced to NEVER stop moving and fighting and would have to make sure to generate full aggro at all times. That, is just not something that is easily done, or even practical in most team settings...
Given the sheer amount of variables which could prevent a Brute from generating and maintaining 75% and especially 90% Fury on teams (everything from a simple escort to a blinky can cause your fury values to utterly plummet..), I have to say that a Brutes damage output and survivability is more than perfectly balanced in comparison to a Scrapper.
***EDIT: Billz, this isn't directed at you, just a QR lol 
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DM, if the team isn't allowing the brute to take the alpha, sadly an all too common problem, then yes, I can't deny what you're stating there.
And it once again brings out the fact that my perceptions of gameplay will forever be biased toward how these two archetypes perform while solo. It's why DM and I have never clicked well.
Be well, people of CoH.
Changed all crits to 10% except those marked as 15%
Added 15% crit to battleaxe cleave and warmace shatter.
Brutes now do .94% more damage than scrappers on average.
Be well, people of CoH.
Just wanted to pop in and say "Thanks" from someone who hungrily reads these forums for information but rarely posts. I love the information and I love the debates.
Anyway, great job. Thanks to you and everyone else who takes teh time to post information that helps all of us.
Acidon
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Changed all crits to 10% except those marked as 15%
Added 15% crit to battleaxe cleave and warmace shatter.
Brutes now do .94% more damage than scrappers on average.
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The only set where you could use less crit chance, is for me, spine.
I play my spine scrap since .. launch, and i learned in all those years that i will never beat another scrapper in single target dmg.
So.. in team i focus on all thing that arn't boss till i'll contribute really more to the dmg side than if i was trying to kill this big [censored] purple boss alone.
edit: on the other hand with your chart, spine will never shine till it's for single target dmg.
On the other hand would it be possible that you try to calcul the dps that could do a spine scrapper in a 8 man team, when you have your power hitting 10 foe each time ? 
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On the other hand would it be possible that you try to calcul the dps that could do a spine scrapper in a 8 man team, when you have your power hitting 10 foe each time ?
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I wish. But I wouldn't know where to start on calculating average aoe output.
Be well, people of CoH.
hmm perhaps take an average of 7-8 foe hitted during half of the fight ? (because sometimes you will hit 10 but with some lag / positionning you can hit less)
Sounds resonable to me, till generally i have time to launch TS, Spine burst, then : they are all dead but the boss.
Or if the mission is though, i'll have time to launch again a TS/spine burst.
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On the other hand would it be possible that you try to calcul the dps that could do a spine scrapper in a 8 man team, when you have your power hitting 10 foe each time ?
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I wish. But I wouldn't know where to start on calculating average aoe output.
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You could calculate each AoE as though it were attacking the number of people it's assumed to be hitting on average, for the Recharge/Endurance formula.
Jerk 4 Life
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How many targets were you using for spines? I was just playing one of my spines scrappers, and I was out preforming the claws scrapper on the team by far. I had an extremely easy time lining up my cones and AoE to hit huge amounts of baddies.
Using Spine Throw -> Ripper -> Spine Burst, as my attack chain, I had done about 400 damage to about 10 freaks in a few seconds, at level 42.
Ahh sorry for saying exactly what a few others said. I hadn't seen all of the pages yet.
i think his spreadsheet is for single target dmg only (or i've miss readed something)
The thing is that Claws does more AE damage in theory. The difference is that Spin only has an 8' radius while Spine Burst has 15'. How do you handle that in theory?
Might be really hard ... it's like squills for spine, it's hard to count it in a multiple foe fight, till you will likely jump out the spawn to maximize the number of hitted foe with Throw spine.
Same for the case of ripper / eviscerate, depending of what you are fighting, and if you are tanking, there will be near 0 chance that you hit several foe or you will always hit several...
And i won't even speak of a double stacked follow up before spin, because the time you stack it, all minion will be likely already dead.
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Even with the assumptions in place (and I'm unsure what assumptions could be further reduced or removed,) shouldn't this analysis show enough parity between the damage output of the two archetypes that we can dismiss the topic?
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As I understand it, your using identical attack chains across brutes and scrappers. For example, the ideal Dark Melee attack chain is not ideal for Fury Generation. Meaning a Dark Melee Brute would have to use a different attack chain to build fury and then shift to the ideal DM chain. That kind of variable affects the overall damage when measured over time. I suspect this would not be true across all shared primaries, but these minor disparities will always fuel the debate.
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I'd have to dismiss that based on the fact that I normalized fury at 75% and crits at 7.5%. How the brute gets to 75% fury and maintains it seems irrelevant to me when considering long period damage output.
On top of that, while I do tend to utilize low tier attacks more often on brutes *while leveling them up* once they get into the late game, they tend to utilize only optimal DPS chains as fury generation is just not a problem for me due to soloing.
EDIT: Thanks, Jetpack. Really.. it was fun, not work.
Be well, people of CoH.