[ QUOTE ]
You seem to think that a 12% survivability edge for brutes (your number) AND a damage advantage (regardless of how small), again for brutes, is parity. I'd suggest you look up parity in the dictionary.
[/ QUOTE ]
He didn't say it was parity. He said he considered it balanced by other factors not captured in those numbers.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
qr
i'd like to thank bill z for going out of his way to provide this resource. thanks man, you've always been a positive presence in the community.
and as someone who is currently leveling up a fire/fire brute (and has several 50 scrappers including a claw/sr and a broadsword/fire) the major difference appears (to me) to simply be one of playstyle, role taking (not to be confused with roleplaying) and what you bring to the game you play.
i've found it reasonably simple to maintain approx 50-90% fury even in the most laid back teams, although at times it's also like being a large dog on a strong leash dragging along the rest of the team with or without their consent.
as a scrapper i have different priorities than as a brute/tank. i'm not likely to be the alpha soaker or the agro holder except accidentally or incidentally depending on the circumstances.
/2inf
Kittens give Morbo gas.
[ QUOTE ]
although at times it's also like being a large dog on a strong leash dragging along the rest of the team with or without their consent
[/ QUOTE ]
This description is made of much accuracy.
Be well, people of CoH.
Indeed. Of course, I play nearly everything that way, including my Defenders and Corruptors. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
I think Scrappers and Brutes are both balanced perfectly together. Brutes get a mere 12% survivability increase in order to survive a tad longer to "generate" their Fury in a battle
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why you think that. Brutes have a single-target gauntlet, Tanker-strength Taunt auras, Tanker-level caps, and Scrapper-level damage. Most people would admit that there's something odd going on there.
[ QUOTE ]
(Scrappers start at full) and are tasked/burdened with "maintaining" that high Fury generation the "entire" mission in order to achieve a whopping 0.94% net damage over Scrappers.
[/ QUOTE ]
It much be very much a burden to keep your damage up to see those oh-so-trying orange numbers. I'm sure everyone just feels like it's such a pain.
I also have no idea why you're using quotes around specific words, other than for unneeded emphasis.
[ QUOTE ]
Basically, they will be forced to work their rears off to "keep" that entire 0.94% damage edge over Scrappers throughout the mission, and let's face it...not only is this normally not easy to do with your average pickup team (most love to take breaks between spawns, absorbe alphas for you with controls, etc)...but we're also talking about a LESS than 1% damage difference...0.94%.
[/ QUOTE ]
So while they're even on damage, they maintain a consistant higher survivability. Unfortunately, brutes aren't "less than 1%" more survivable, so in that area Cybernaut and others have a point.
[ QUOTE ]
I mean...it wouldn't even show up in damage figures. Less than 1% difference, for a "huge" amount of work in order to reach that "whopping" potential. Whearas a Scrapper can get it at the start of a fight all the way to the end and doesn't have to keep moving or work for it as hard. So yea...I think a little 12% increase in Brute survivability is a perfectly balanced trade-off.
0.94% man. 0.94%.
If that is really troubling you, then you have some serious envy problems that maybe you should speak to a councelor about...
[/ QUOTE ]
You seem to ignore the fact--constantly, even--that Brutes end up equating Scrappers damage-wise, while having an innate superior survivability, and are more buffable both offensively and defensively to out-perform any other melee AT. And they have aggro control capabilities on par with Tankers, sans the splash Gauntlet.
I'm not saying I agree that there's a huge "issue" but you're trying to focus on one point of the argument ("less than 1% damage difference") of one specific set of analysis (Single-target attack chains) of an entire set. Which rules out things like aggro control (which only a few of Scrapper's sets have, and what taunt auras they do have are weaker than the Brutes), buffability, and AoE damage potential altogether.
Bill's list was a showing of something he was interested in, and was very cool to see, but it does not make an accurate comparison between the two sets. But you also can't sit there and really try to say there is no disparity just because one metric shows an even keel. You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.
[ QUOTE ]
You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just like those ignoring brute damage output variability pointing to the necessity of higher hitpoints.
It's fascinating to me that the arguments for and against some unfair brute advantage are being shown to have the same kind of overall fairness in their logical holes that I see present between the two ATs.
Be well, people of CoH.
I'm for boosting Scrapper damage by 15%.
Forget about survivability.(You can solo an AV what more do you need)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just like those ignoring brute damage output variability pointing to the necessity of higher hitpoints.
It's fascinating to me that the arguments for and against some unfair brute advantage are being shown to have the same kind of overall fairness in their logical holes that I see present between the two ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I never meant to imply the other side wasn't ignoring some things as well, like the fact that Scrapper's damage is more consistent across all scenarios with more noticeable spikes, because of Criticals.
[ QUOTE ]
i've found it reasonably simple to maintain approx 50-90% fury even in the most laid back teams, although at times it's also like being a large dog on a strong leash dragging along the rest of the team with or without their consent.
[/ QUOTE ]
This. The whole 'you gotta work for fury' argument doesn't seem to fly, at least for me. I never 'try' for fury, I just hit my attacks and the enemies attack me and it seems to happen automatically. And the same thing happens when I play a scrapper - I hit my attacks and get attacked, but with lower survivability and no fury bonus. And like you say, on even slow moving teams, my fury is routinely at 30-40% minimum.
And the 'at times it feels like I'm dragging the team along' idea is true on scrappers as well, but with a brutes it's a hell of a lot easier with better survivability.
[ QUOTE ]
as a scrapper i have different priorities than as a brute/tank. i'm not likely to be the alpha soaker or the agro holder except accidentally or incidentally depending on the circumstances.
/2inf
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course as a scrapper you have different priorities, because at 70-75% fury (which you yourself say is easy to maintain even on a slow team), the brute does everything better than your scrapper - it does more damage, withstands more damage and handles aggro better. So why would a team pick a scrapper over a brute all things being equal? What is a scrapper providing for a team that a brute cannot do as well or better?
[ QUOTE ]
You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not ignoring them. You, and those who are trying to point out that Brutes are somehow so "omigawd OP" are the one's ignoring them. I have, many times now, pointed out the reasons as to why these two classes are balanced between eachother, and why the extreme variableness of Fury, allows it to be balanced as such. Who says that a Scrapper is suppose to outdamage a Brute anyways? I've never heard that. At the same time however, a Brute definately does not "always" outdamage a Scrapper at all. Yes, at certain peak times a Brute can (by .094%...) outdamage a Scrapper, but only at those peak times.
However, you and a couple others, continue to refuse to believe that Fury is and can be a variable nightmare by which you cannot depend to be at 75% or higher at all times during any given mission, especially while teamed. Solo, with the correct build and good IO slotting those fury levels can be attainable, just not as easily (if at all) on your [u]average pickup team[u]. Meanwhile, pickup team or not, a Scrapper will start out at a MUCH higher damage level than Brutes and continue that level of damage regardless of whether the team needs a breather, absorbes the alpha, or not.
Let me put it into a little perspective here, since most of you seem to keep egging on the [u]"well if your team will allow you to 'take' the full alpha of each spawn rather than controlling/absorbing it themselves, then you'll be able to attain those high fury levels throughout most the mission."[u] <----This is one of the big defensive possitions of certain people right now.
So...what you're saying...is that if said Brute...wants to attain his "peak" levels of Fury generation in order to beat a Scrapper by 0.94% damage...he'll be forced to tell the Dominators to "not" cast that AoE hold, as well as tell other Brutes to "not" jump in first, as well as tell Stalkers to "not" AS due to their control fear...? Am I hearing this right? Ok, so that 12% survivability bonus IS going to come in handy, correct? Since outside of buffs/healing you're taking on the FULL brunt of each spawn head on in order to keep up with your Scrapper brethren in damage, and beat thier damage by that huge 0.94% ....right?
Meanwhile....back at the batcave...
A Scrapper, who admittedly has roughly 12% less survivability than a Brute...could care less if that Controller lays down an AoE Hold...he could care less if that Tank rushes in and uses gauntlet and attracts all the aggro...he could care less if his other Scrapper buddy rushes in first...he could care less if a Blaster 1-shot Nukes half the spawn....why? Because regardless of how much aggro he is generating his damage will be awesome...[u]right out the gate[u]. He doesn't have the need to have an entire 8-man spawn worth of mobs alpha him to shoot his damage up. He doesn't have the need to have them continue to attack him to keep his damage pegged...he just flips out and kills things, end of story.
Now....do we need to dive in to just how much damage mitigation all of those AoE Controller mez's are producing for the Scrapper? Do we need to delve in to how much damage mitigation is being provided by the Tanker using gauntlet+taunt? What about the Blaster that 1-shot nukes all the minions? I believe that equals 100% mitigation...right? Dead = 100% mitigation, correct?
Why yes. Yes I am.
Can we say that a held mob that is unable to fight back is better than 12% more survivability?
Yes.
Can we say that a guantlet taunted mob that isn't even attacking you at all, thus contributing next to zero damage on you is better than 12% more survivability?
Yes.
Can we also say, that an entire spawn that is almost entirely 1-shotted is contributing more damage mitigation than a mere 12% survivability boost?
Again. Yes.
Now, so you don't forget! Remember that a Brute, if he want's to stay at his highest possible damage stats (remember that awesome 0.94% damage advantage they have over Scrapperst that you're crying about?) would ask a Dominator to not aoe control the mob. He'd ask other Brutes/Tankers to not run in first (or at all...really). He'd ask that Blaster to please not 1-shot nuke the next spawn. Why? Because by doing so, they may be providing great damage mitigation for the Brute and the team, but at the same time they are dropping the Brute's damage substantially, in that he will not be able to generate the appropriate fury levels to in any way out pace a Scrapper in damage. Oh, and a little heads up, most Brutes will [u]not[u] ask this of most teams and thus will almost never reach this "full potential" of fury which everyone here is dreaming about.
So in reality, he will need that meager 12% survivability boost in order to survive in his lifestyle. If the controller/dominator is not holding, or the other Brute/Tanker is not attacking, or the mobs aren't outright killed, he'll be taking all of the damage on his own. And for what? A .094% damage advantage over a Scrapper? 
Now, can any of this...be ANY more clear for those that just can't seem to grasp what I'm pointing out here? I mean seriously, do I need to paint a picture?
I've even given my own recent personal experiences with this earlier when in Co-Op zones fighting beside Heroes while on my Brutes. Heck, I've even done the same comparisons while on my Scrappers fighting alonside Brutes, and what I've typed is just the exact [u]in-game[u] experience that every Brute goes through. But sure, continue to disregard any of these pertinent and important factors as you have and also continue to believe that a Brute hits 75% or higher fury within 1 attack and it just freezes there and never drops throughout the entire mission 
But hey, if that's what you wanna believe, feel free, it's wrong, but feel free.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just like those ignoring brute damage output variability pointing to the necessity of higher hitpoints.
It's fascinating to me that the arguments for and against some unfair brute advantage are being shown to have the same kind of overall fairness in their logical holes that I see present between the two ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
At what fury% do brutes do inferior damage to scrappers to justify the survivability advantage, and how often is the average brute playing at that fury%? And even when they are there, I guess when they are resting or the player is afk, they still maintain advantages in survivability and aggro controls. Then add to that, the fact that brutes have the ability to do better damage, have better survivability and possess better aggro control abilities.
What variable am I missing? What 'facet' of the at's am I missing? Yes, in some circumstances (perhaps when the brute is in a coma or mapserving), the scrapper will outdamage a brute commensurate with the inherent survivability advantage brutes have over scrappers, but in those instances, you have parity, because one at is the superior damage dealer, while the other is better at surviving damage damage and controlling aggro. The disparity comes into play when the brute can surpass the scrapper at all of the above, while the scrapper cannot do the same.
And as I've said several times, I don't think the disparity is huge or game breaking, but it's clearly there. Unless someone can point out this 'facet' I'm missing. Do scrappers have a nicer scent or something?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've found it reasonably simple to maintain approx 50-90% fury even in the most laid back teams, although at times it's also like being a large dog on a strong leash dragging along the rest of the team with or without their consent.
[/ QUOTE ]
This. The whole 'you gotta work for fury' argument doesn't seem to fly, at least for me. I never 'try' for fury, I just hit my attacks and the enemies attack me and it seems to happen automatically. And the same thing happens when I play a scrapper - I hit my attacks and get attacked, but with lower survivability and no fury bonus. And like you say, on even slow moving teams, my fury is routinely at 30-40% minimum.
And the 'at times it feels like I'm dragging the team along' idea is true on scrappers as well, but with a brutes it's a hell of a lot easier with better survivability.
[ QUOTE ]
as a scrapper i have different priorities than as a brute/tank. i'm not likely to be the alpha soaker or the agro holder except accidentally or incidentally depending on the circumstances.
/2inf
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course as a scrapper you have different priorities, because at 70-75% fury (which you yourself say is easy to maintain even on a slow team), the brute does everything better than your scrapper - it does more damage, withstands more damage and handles aggro better. So why would a team pick a scrapper over a brute all things being equal? What is a scrapper providing for a team that a brute cannot do as well or better?
[/ QUOTE ]
yes yes once you have the fury built it stays.
or does it?
if you are a build that has endless endurance and health - damned straight. this is why for the majority of your gaming, /wp brutes are insane.
but i think people are forgetting brutes dont get conserve power. MOST brute builds can starve for end until they are io'd out. therefore any time spent waiting for that end bar to tick is fury lost. and it's a LOT of fury.
and lets not even get started on cave missions.
no - there is variability there. before 40 and before you have yoru defense and offense sorted out AND have yoru recovery/regen sorted out the variability is pretty huge.
only people who havent actually played a brute other than /wp or dm say otherwise.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not ignoring them. You, and those who are trying to point out that Brutes are somehow so "omigawd OP" are the one's ignoring them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Simply put, you're bringing up irrelevant points in order to justify your argument using flawed logic.
I have no interest in going through your post quoting you a dozen or so times to make these points which you would only refute in the exact same methodology, so I'm going to save myself the time.
[ QUOTE ]
But hey, if that's what you wanna believe, feel free, it's wrong, but feel free.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is very ironic you say that.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not ignoring them. You, and those who are trying to point out that Brutes are somehow so "omigawd OP" are the one's ignoring them. I have, many times now, pointed out the reasons as to why these two classes are balanced between eachother, and why the extreme variableness of Fury, allows it to be balanced as such. Who says that a Scrapper is suppose to outdamage a Brute anyways? I've never heard that. At the same time however, a Brute definately does not "always" outdamage a Scrapper at all. Yes, at certain peak times a Brute can (by .094%...) outdamage a Scrapper, but only at those peak times.
However, you and a couple others, continue to refuse to believe that Fury is and can be a variable nightmare by which you cannot depend to be at 75% or higher at all times during any given mission, especially while teamed. Solo, with the correct build and good IO slotting those fury levels can be attainable, just not as easily (if at all) on your [u]average pickup team[u]. Meanwhile, pickup team or not, a Scrapper will start out at a MUCH higher damage level than Brutes and continue that level of damage regardless of whether the team needs a breather, absorbes the alpha, or not.
Let me put it into a little perspective here, since most of you seem to keep egging on the [u]"well if your team will allow you to 'take' the full alpha of each spawn rather than controlling/absorbing it themselves, then you'll be able to attain those high fury levels throughout most the mission."[u] <----This is one of the big defensive possitions of certain people right now.
So...what you're saying...is that if said Brute...wants to attain his "peak" levels of Fury generation in order to beat a Scrapper by 0.94% damage...he'll be forced to tell the Dominators to "not" cast that AoE hold, as well as tell other Brutes to "not" jump in first, as well as tell Stalkers to "not" AS due to their control fear...? Am I hearing this right? Ok, so that 12% survivability bonus IS going to come in handy, correct? Since outside of buffs/healing you're taking on the FULL brunt of each spawn head on in order to keep up with your Scrapper brethren in damage, and beat thier damage by that huge 0.94% ....right?
Meanwhile....back at the batcave...
A Scrapper, who admittedly has roughly 12% less survivability than a Brute...could care less if that Controller lays down an AoE Hold...he could care less if that Tank rushes in and uses gauntlet and attracts all the aggro...he could care less if his other Scrapper buddy rushes in first...he could care less if a Blaster 1-shot Nukes half the spawn....why? Because regardless of how much aggro he is generating his damage will be awesome...[u]right out the gate[u]. He doesn't have the need to have an entire 8-man spawn worth of mobs alpha him to shoot his damage up. He doesn't have the need to have them continue to attack him to keep his damage pegged...he just flips out and kills things, end of story.
Now....do we need to dive in to just how much damage mitigation all of those AoE Controller mez's are producing for the Scrapper? Do we need to delve in to how much damage mitigation is being provided by the Tanker using gauntlet+taunt? What about the Blaster that 1-shot nukes all the minions? I believe that equals 100% mitigation...right? Dead = 100% mitigation, correct?
Why yes. Yes I am.
Can we say that a held mob that is unable to fight back is better than 12% more survivability?
Yes.
Can we say that a guantlet taunted mob that isn't even attacking you at all, thus contributing next to zero damage on you is better than 12% more survivability?
Yes.
Can we also say, that an entire spawn that is almost entirely 1-shotted is contributing more damage mitigation than a mere 12% survivability boost?
Again. Yes.
Now, so you don't forget! Remember that a Brute, if he want's to stay at his highest possible damage stats (remember that awesome 0.94% damage advantage they have over Scrapperst that you're crying about?) would ask a Dominator to not aoe control the mob. He'd ask other Brutes/Tankers to not run in first (or at all...really). He'd ask that Blaster to please not 1-shot nuke the next spawn. Why? Because by doing so, they may be providing great damage mitigation for the Brute and the team, but at the same time they are dropping the Brute's damage substantially, in that he will not be able to generate the appropriate fury levels to in any way out pace a Scrapper in damage. Oh, and a little heads up, most Brutes will [u]not[u] ask this of most teams and thus will almost never reach this "full potential" of fury which everyone here is dreaming about.
So in reality, he will need that meager 12% survivability boost in order to survive in his lifestyle. If the controller/dominator is not holding, or the other Brute/Tanker is not attacking, or the mobs aren't outright killed, he'll be taking all of the damage on his own. And for what? A .094% damage advantage over a Scrapper?
Now, can any of this...be ANY more clear for those that just can't seem to grasp what I'm pointing out here? I mean seriously, do I need to paint a picture?
I've even given my own recent personal experiences with this earlier when in Co-Op zones fighting beside Heroes while on my Brutes. Heck, I've even done the same comparisons while on my Scrappers fighting alonside Brutes, and what I've typed is just the exact [u]in-game[u] experience that every Brute goes through. But sure, continue to disregard any of these pertinent and important factors as you have and also continue to believe that a Brute hits 75% or higher fury within 1 attack and it just freezes there and never drops throughout the entire mission
But hey, if that's what you wanna believe, feel free, it's wrong, but feel free.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you just bring controllers into the argument? LOL.
And you claim fury is hard to generate, yet you're at 100% and we're just forum arguing...
Bottom line is; brutes ALWAYS have better survivability and aggro control, and CAN ATTAIN better damage dealing output. That is clearly a disparity in favor of brutes. Scrappers sometimes do better damage and ALWAYS have inferior survivability and aggro control. And nobody is claiming brutes are overpowered as you have claimed, only that there is a disparity between scrappers and brutes. And I don't think anyone claimed the gap was huge or game breaking either, quite the opposite.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just like those ignoring brute damage output variability pointing to the necessity of higher hitpoints.
It's fascinating to me that the arguments for and against some unfair brute advantage are being shown to have the same kind of overall fairness in their logical holes that I see present between the two ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
At what fury% do brutes do inferior damage to scrappers to justify the survivability advantage, and how often is the average brute playing at that fury%? And even when they are there, I guess when they are resting or the player is afk, they still maintain advantages in survivability and aggro controls. Then add to that, the fact that brutes have the ability to do better damage, have better survivability and possess better aggro control abilities.
What variable am I missing? What 'facet' of the at's am I missing? Yes, in some circumstances (perhaps when the brute is in a coma or mapserving), the scrapper will outdamage a brute commensurate with the inherent survivability advantage brutes have over scrappers, but in those instances, you have parity, because one at is the superior damage dealer, while the other is better at surviving damage damage and controlling aggro. The disparity comes into play when the brute can surpass the scrapper at all of the above, while the scrapper cannot do the same.
And as I've said several times, I don't think the disparity is huge or game breaking, but it's clearly there. Unless someone can point out this 'facet' I'm missing. Do scrappers have a nicer scent or something?
[/ QUOTE ]
you dont actually have a brute. i can tell.
[ QUOTE ]
Did you just bring controllers into the argument? LOL.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, was I not suppose to bring valid arguments to the table?
Whoops, my bad, didn't wanna make you just sound like a whiner...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've found it reasonably simple to maintain approx 50-90% fury even in the most laid back teams, although at times it's also like being a large dog on a strong leash dragging along the rest of the team with or without their consent.
[/ QUOTE ]
This. The whole 'you gotta work for fury' argument doesn't seem to fly, at least for me. I never 'try' for fury, I just hit my attacks and the enemies attack me and it seems to happen automatically. And the same thing happens when I play a scrapper - I hit my attacks and get attacked, but with lower survivability and no fury bonus. And like you say, on even slow moving teams, my fury is routinely at 30-40% minimum.
And the 'at times it feels like I'm dragging the team along' idea is true on scrappers as well, but with a brutes it's a hell of a lot easier with better survivability.
[ QUOTE ]
as a scrapper i have different priorities than as a brute/tank. i'm not likely to be the alpha soaker or the agro holder except accidentally or incidentally depending on the circumstances.
/2inf
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course as a scrapper you have different priorities, because at 70-75% fury (which you yourself say is easy to maintain even on a slow team), the brute does everything better than your scrapper - it does more damage, withstands more damage and handles aggro better. So why would a team pick a scrapper over a brute all things being equal? What is a scrapper providing for a team that a brute cannot do as well or better?
[/ QUOTE ]
yes yes once you have the fury built it stays.
or does it?
if you are a build that has endless endurance and health - damned straight. this is why for the majority of your gaming, /wp brutes are insane.
but i think people are forgetting brutes dont get conserve power. MOST brute builds can starve for end until they are io'd out. therefore any time spent waiting for that end bar to tick is fury lost. and it's a LOT of fury.
and lets not even get started on cave missions.
no - there is variability there. before 40 and before you have yoru defense and offense sorted out AND have yoru recovery/regen sorted out the variability is pretty huge.
only people who havent actually played a brute other than /wp or dm say otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even at low fury, when the scrapper is out-damaging the brute, the brute retains better survivability and aggro control abilities, so it evens out. But when brutes get to high fury, they do EVERYTHING better than a scrapper. When does a scrapper do everything better than a brute? That's the disparity.
At low fury brutes and scrappers are on par, with scrappers being the better damage dealers and brutes being the better damage absorbers, but at high fury it's out of whack, because the brute does everything better.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just like those ignoring brute damage output variability pointing to the necessity of higher hitpoints.
It's fascinating to me that the arguments for and against some unfair brute advantage are being shown to have the same kind of overall fairness in their logical holes that I see present between the two ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
At what fury% do brutes do inferior damage to scrappers to justify the survivability advantage, and how often is the average brute playing at that fury%? And even when they are there, I guess when they are resting or the player is afk, they still maintain advantages in survivability and aggro controls. Then add to that, the fact that brutes have the ability to do better damage, have better survivability and possess better aggro control abilities.
What variable am I missing? What 'facet' of the at's am I missing? Yes, in some circumstances (perhaps when the brute is in a coma or mapserving), the scrapper will outdamage a brute commensurate with the inherent survivability advantage brutes have over scrappers, but in those instances, you have parity, because one at is the superior damage dealer, while the other is better at surviving damage damage and controlling aggro. The disparity comes into play when the brute can surpass the scrapper at all of the above, while the scrapper cannot do the same.
And as I've said several times, I don't think the disparity is huge or game breaking, but it's clearly there. Unless someone can point out this 'facet' I'm missing. Do scrappers have a nicer scent or something?
[/ QUOTE ]
you dont actually have a brute. i can tell.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, oh you can tell, huh? But your reply to my argument is very telling...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did you just bring controllers into the argument? LOL.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, was I not suppose to bring valid arguments to the table?
Whoops, my bad, didn't wanna make you just sound like a whiner...
[/ QUOTE ]
No, please DO bring valid arguments to the table, lol. Or go with the name calling, whatever works for you little fella!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've found it reasonably simple to maintain approx 50-90% fury even in the most laid back teams, although at times it's also like being a large dog on a strong leash dragging along the rest of the team with or without their consent.
[/ QUOTE ]
This. The whole 'you gotta work for fury' argument doesn't seem to fly, at least for me. I never 'try' for fury, I just hit my attacks and the enemies attack me and it seems to happen automatically. And the same thing happens when I play a scrapper - I hit my attacks and get attacked, but with lower survivability and no fury bonus. And like you say, on even slow moving teams, my fury is routinely at 30-40% minimum.
And the 'at times it feels like I'm dragging the team along' idea is true on scrappers as well, but with a brutes it's a hell of a lot easier with better survivability.
[ QUOTE ]
as a scrapper i have different priorities than as a brute/tank. i'm not likely to be the alpha soaker or the agro holder except accidentally or incidentally depending on the circumstances.
/2inf
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Of course as a scrapper you have different priorities, because at 70-75% fury (which you yourself say is easy to maintain even on a slow team), the brute does everything better than your scrapper - it does more damage, withstands more damage and handles aggro better. So why would a team pick a scrapper over a brute all things being equal? What is a scrapper providing for a team that a brute cannot do as well or better?
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yes yes once you have the fury built it stays.
or does it?
if you are a build that has endless endurance and health - damned straight. this is why for the majority of your gaming, /wp brutes are insane.
but i think people are forgetting brutes dont get conserve power. MOST brute builds can starve for end until they are io'd out. therefore any time spent waiting for that end bar to tick is fury lost. and it's a LOT of fury.
and lets not even get started on cave missions.
no - there is variability there. before 40 and before you have yoru defense and offense sorted out AND have yoru recovery/regen sorted out the variability is pretty huge.
only people who havent actually played a brute other than /wp or dm say otherwise.
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Even at low fury, when the scrapper is out-damaging the brute, the brute retains better survivability and aggro control abilities, so it evens out. But when brutes get to high fury, they do EVERYTHING better than a scrapper. When does a scrapper do everything better than a brute? That's the disparity.
At low fury brutes and scrappers are on par, with scrappers being the better damage dealers and brutes being the better damage absorbers, but at high fury it's out of whack, because the brute does everything better.
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see, this is how i can tell you dont actually have a brute. or if you do, it's like level 5
scrappers arent expected to take the alpha. brutes are.
scrappers arent expected to wade into groups of defense and resist debuffing mobs (please go fight 4-5 longbow nullifiers and spec-ops. oooo! no regen, and 0 resistance ftw!)...brutes are.
scrappers arent expected to tank the freedom phalanx 4 at a time. brutes are.
you can have brute hp when brutes get parry and divine avalanche.
you want to talk survivability? a level 8 bs or katana/shield is soft capped to melee and lethal dmg without anything enhanced in any form. get off it.
scrappers solo av's just fine. if they want, scrappers can solo spawns of tough mobs just fine. you can have brute hp when brutes get the same values as scrappers on soul drain and against all odds.
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Simply put, you're bringing up irrelevant points in order to justify your argument using flawed logic.
I have no interest in going through your post quoting you a dozen or so times to make these points which you would only refute in the exact same methodology, so I'm going to save myself the time.
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No.
I'm bringing up "relevant" points to which your flawed logic has no refute to stand on. To see them as "irrelevent" points of logic on this discussion is to only be blinded by your own dim wittedness and lack of perception. But again, that's your choice.
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Did you just bring controllers into the argument? LOL.
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I'm sorry, was I not suppose to bring valid arguments to the table?
Whoops, my bad, didn't wanna make you just sound like a whiner...
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No, please DO bring valid arguments to the table, lol. Or go with the name calling, whatever works for you little fella!
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Awe, how cute, you used "little fella" in an attempt to belittle me in your game of Forum PvP. Yay! Gold star, you're so advanced in teh word peeveepees!
And you can read the same response I gave to Stolid about "valid agruments" here. You, have none, but you boast and banter around as if you do.
Enjoy that 100% of the time pegged Fury bar that never decays "little fella" lmao
***EDIT: Btw...I have to go to work, so we'll have to continue this fun another time. Bye-bye now 
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So why would a team pick a scrapper over a brute all things being equal?
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Why would you ever pick a 2nd brute over anything?
Solo, scrappers benefit more from things like buildup and red inspirations enough to arguably justify the difference in hitpoints and resist caps. Teamed, the first brute may be better than a scrapper, but I think that's a small enough margine to live with. If you are going to claim you see several brutes in large teams, each maintaining 70% fury or more, then that's going to be the first I've ever heard of it.
I do find it entertaining that people will complain about being unable to hit with total focus and energy transfer in teams because teammates kill too fast, while in the same thread I find arguing over brutes comparing too favorably with scrappers in tearms of damage. Obviously, energy melee must be the exception.
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You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.
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Just like those ignoring brute damage output variability pointing to the necessity of higher hitpoints.
It's fascinating to me that the arguments for and against some unfair brute advantage are being shown to have the same kind of overall fairness in their logical holes that I see present between the two ATs.
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At what fury% do brutes do inferior damage to scrappers to justify the survivability advantage, and how often is the average brute playing at that fury%? And even when they are there, I guess when they are resting or the player is afk, they still maintain advantages in survivability and aggro controls. Then add to that, the fact that brutes have the ability to do better damage, have better survivability and possess better aggro control abilities.
What variable am I missing? What 'facet' of the at's am I missing? Yes, in some circumstances (perhaps when the brute is in a coma or mapserving), the scrapper will outdamage a brute commensurate with the inherent survivability advantage brutes have over scrappers, but in those instances, you have parity, because one at is the superior damage dealer, while the other is better at surviving damage damage and controlling aggro. The disparity comes into play when the brute can surpass the scrapper at all of the above, while the scrapper cannot do the same.
And as I've said several times, I don't think the disparity is huge or game breaking, but it's clearly there. Unless someone can point out this 'facet' I'm missing. Do scrappers have a nicer scent or something?
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That can be answered with math:
Scrap AT mod: 62.562
Brute AT mod: 41.708
cremate: 1.64ds
Scrap Cremate: 102.602
Brute Cremate: 68.401
% buff needed for brute to equal scrap: 50% = 25% fury
When we add 95% enhancements:
Scrap Cremate: 200 .074
Brute Cremate: 133.381
But fury only affects base damage: Brute needs 48.751% fury to catch up.
And so on and so forth.
Be well, people of CoH.
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You seem to think that a 12% survivability edge for brutes (your number) AND a damage advantage (regardless of how small), again for brutes, is parity. I'd suggest you look up parity in the dictionary.
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He's stating that the parity comes from the fact that brutes must work to achieve that which scrappers sit at all the time.
The extra HP is there BECAUSE brutes have to keep pushing on when scrappers can just hold back and relax.
That's where parity comes from.
Honestly, the discussion has become increasingly silly to me after all the bruting and scraping I've done.
Be well, people of CoH.