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How about AVs with ambushes? Say, for instance, in the Ice Mistral SF, Apex TF, Barracuda SF, LRSF, Lady Gray TF, and even STF just to name a few.
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You left out the fight with Romulus at the end of the ITF. I already considered this when I made the statement. Okay, Final AV of Ice Mistral, BM during Apex, Stinger during LRSF, Reichman during Barricuda, and you only get ambushes if you kill the Gens before the AV's during the LGTF. So 6 examples vs how many instances where this is not the case Dech's? Count that massive number up and compare to this 6. You haven't proven me wrong.
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I've already demonstrated that even though all my awesome fuel is gone, my WS still contributes more to an AV fight than your PB. My Sunless Mire gives me more damage over time than your build up.
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Hmm, If you reread my post I said your WS did more dmg over time with the mire? Why are you stating this again? I can heal my team mates keeping other damage dealers alive, you can't. +1 to the Peacebringer.
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Correction: Radiation Infection is auto hit, along with plenty of other AoE debuffs (see what I did there?) that are persistent.
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I said autohit and I was talking about attacking. Name some significant autohit damage attacks before you correct me again. I did not say autohit debuff. Even with other debuffs when have you ever been on a team that has a tank where someone said "hey man, we have too many debuffs, we really can't use anymore debuffs, lets turn that person away and get something else." There is nothing in this game that does not melted by debuffs + attacks regardless of the source. Quote the part where I said PB's were the only form of debuffs in the game and where I said I would substitute them for an actual debuffer. I just said PB's can add this effect and a Warshade can't. I compared Warshades to Peacebringers and you can only counter with other AT's. My point still stands. +1 for PB's again.
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Listen kid, I've fought the level 54 Captain Mako, and I'll tell you that -def requiring a tohit check is completely worthless, especially when compared to tohit buffs that are so common amongst support teammates.
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Listen kid, I killed level 54 Captain Mako, I've hit through Posi's Overload as well on a LRSF, and fought every single AV in this game with a PB and the -def continues to stack and be useful. Teams with stacked tactics do occasionally miss Mako in Elude on STF's. Maybe your -def with a tohit roll is worthless. They have these powers called build up and tactics you might be able to hit past high defense with them. I don't have a problems hitting anything maybe you should try using them sometime. Every player we team with is not going have an awesome build. Who in their right mind would argue that a debuff is worthless because people CAN saturate themselves with buffs, really Dechs? Remember I am comparing Warshades to Peacebringers tell me how your Warshade boosts your teams ability to hit targets. Or continue you to give me examples of how things other than Warshades beat Peacebringers and ignore my comparison.
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Just to be thorough, I've done the Master of Apex without defense debuffs on the team. Never missed them.
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Good for you Dech's you didn't miss. It's too bad you don't represent the rest of the playerbase that misses from time to time. Go tell those people the shouldn't bother with extra -def because all of them should hit everything at all times. The fact that you didn't use -def does not make defense debuffs any less useful and it doesn't give a Warshades an edge at all.
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Unless anyone else on the team has those IOs. They don't stack at all. I'd rather have a sonic blaster in your place if that's all you have to offer.
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A sonic blaster is not a Warshade. Tell me how your Warshades increases TEAM damage more than a proc'd PB? The possibility of -res on top of increasing tohit rolls is more useful than.....nothing. (-rech does not equal more damage.) Wanna compare Rads to a PB now? or some other powerset that is obviously better than a PB since your WS isn't?
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-Recharge isn't offensive? Really? So when I'm making Honoree's godmode recharge slower, I'm not helping us do more damage?
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No, -rech is useful but it does not equal more damage. When you cause enemies to stop or slow their offense we call this concept defense. So your helping with defense and I'm not saying Warshades aren't doing that. I like -rech but thats not what I'm talking about here. Even if you were right thats, Warshades + 1 instance : Peacebringers + the rest of the game.
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When I'm making Reichsman fire off his deadly 100 mag stun AoE less often and keeping more people alive to do more damage, I'm not helping us do more damage?
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No. See above. You slow Reichsman's stun down to some really small degree, cool beans. He still fires the stun and while you're mashing buttons (because thats all you can do if your not stunned), a PB can heal their stunned team members while they continue to fight. Thats a greater contribution than a minor slow. Even if this was a true example of how WS's outshine PB's... Warshades + 2 instances : Peacebringers + the rest of the game again.
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You almost win here, except that my WS has just as many holds as your PB
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Equal is not better. Thats why we call it equal. You don't win here either because your stuns don't matter.
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As stated, my Warshade is just as good against an AV as your PB. So we go from awesome to "as good as a PB" when we get to the AV. Thanks for the insult.
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It's not, I gave you examples of why the PB has the edge go reference them.
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One foe is easy to tank and spank. Large numbers that exceed the aggro cap and multiple ambushes of debuffing minions, not so easy.
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Welcome to City of Heroes. This game has been Tank and Spank since 2004. Decent teams don't die the moment the aggro cap is exceeded. A team that can kill lots of mobs is still a team that can Tank and Fail to defeat an AV. This means failing to finish a mission or task force. A team that is capable of defeating AV's isn't going to have trouble with extra uncontrolled mobs. Could this mean defeating large groups of mobs is easier than taking AV's? hmmm it just might. Can you think of one team line-up with the powersets to take an AV that would wipe against large groups of mobs? I'd like to pick that apart too. How many times have you heard of a team failing a mission that has no boss? How many times have you heard of a team failing to defeat an AV? I bet I know which number is higher....
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I've got one for you, please list the amount of time you spend fighting through the missions in all those task forces compared to the amount of time you spend fighting the AVs in those task forces. I'll wait.
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You've got nothing for me. You're talking about a player that runs 19 minutes ITF's regularly and speed Master TF's without trying. Teams I join melt AV's in under 5 minutes, spend no time on mobs, and move on. The majority of my time spent on a TF is travel time. If I ever have to deal with mobs (like on an ITF) I bring a kin or aoe debuffs and they still go down in less time than an AV.
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Hundreds of hours of playtime later and this has yet to be a problem.
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Good for you Dechs. The guy that writes a warshade guide doesn't have problems with them? No Way!
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For tanking, maybe, but a PB tank is still no where near as good as a real tank. Likely, if your team needs a tank, they don't want a kheldian for that role, and they'd be right. I wouldn't want a PB or a WS to tank for my team (assuming we felt we needed a tank) because that gives us a crappy tank and hamstrings what the PB can do.
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Did I say PB tanks were better than real tanks? Please quote the part where I said this. If you read through my posts you'll see where I said khelds will never be better than the AT's they mimic. I've outperformed Tanks on more than one occasion on TF's and I know other Kheld players that have done the same. Those tankers were not on optimum builds there are plenty of other tanks that honestly suck out there. Have you seen the number of AE babies floating around on melees in this game lately? So, the idea of grabbing a Kheld tank for a TF isn't crazy at all. For someone that supports Kheldians so much I expected more optimism.
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You must not have ever played a Warshade if you say something like this. Not only does Black Dwarf have one more attack than the White Dwarf, saturated mires push damage way into awesome. Against an AV, the tank isn't expected to do much damage, and anyway, the kheldian should not be the tank for the team. If it's a tankless team that just wants a beefy guy to taunt the AV, then fine. Both my warshade and your PB will perform the task equally well.
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I play a WS, Dwarf damage numbers suck mired or not. Period. A Kheldian should not be a tank for the team if they can find a decent tank. Its nice to be able to step up to the plate for awhile while a tank is recovering from a defeat or a tier9 crash. A PB Dwarf has better survival tools than a WS dwarf. The WS minor heal and -rech does not outweigh the massive heal of the PB.
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Wait, a WS dropping to eclipse is silly, but a PB dropping to heal is safe?
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I don't do this and would not recommend it. That's why I said it was silly. I said that both the WS and PB can drop out of the form but the PB can do alot more healing. This would be in a situation where either dwarf was overwhelmed both of them could TP away. In this situation when the PB was out of danger it could recover instantly and jump back in the fight. The WS could not pull this off because they need to remain in a threat area to get their buffs.
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Excuse me, but BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Ok, Nova form has a higher damage modifier than a blaster. You even have a damage buff. The blasters attacks still all do more damage. Don't forget defiance either.
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Hey, the majority blasters are better than Peacebringers. Something else I already stated. You deleted a PB for a Rad blaster and I just wanted to point out that PB's are slightly better to highlight the fact that Rad Blast sucks. That is all. Go ask the other blasters on the blaster forums what they think. They will agree rad blast lags behind the other blaster primaries.
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I beg to differ. A blaster can reach levels of survivability via softcap that a PB cannot reach as easily.
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Is "it's easier to soft cap" your only defense? Sure you could do it easier with Ice Armor. You could softcap a PB too. At the end of the day you have more tools of survival after softcap which I already mentioned.
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Survival means nothing if you can't kill what you're fighting. If a blaster survives against a larger group of enemies because he can defeat them all before they kill him, and a PB cannot, who was more survivable?
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First of all, show me something a blaster can kill that is impossible for a PB to kill over time. Blasters do spike damage, its part of their AT concept. I like blasters, I understand this. Again Dech's, I am talking about the PB's ability to survive incoming dmg vs a blasters ability. You can't create a blaster with more survival tools than a PB. Period. Drop it.
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Except you're wrong here. Ok, my WS can't PvP very well, but PvP is broken anyway. When it comes to AVs though, as I have demonstrated, we're on equal ground. If one AT does 70% of the game better than another AT, 20% as good as that AT, and 5% worse, don't you see a problem?
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You have demonstrated nothing. Saying pvp is broken does not defend the fact that Warshades sucked before i13 and they still suck at pvp today. I would only consider fighting a MM as their only possible moment of glory. Where is the 70% estimate coming from? I already stated in a prior post that the majority of mission maps are mobs. My point was the majority of the challenges of the game of players and AV's. Peacebringers are better suitted to take on these greater challenges. The 70% of the game you describe is a cakewalk. Who cares what AT you choose to deal with things that are not challenging? ... oh noes... exceeding the aggro cap.... woooo.... scary...
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Where was I asking for PBs to be more AoE-centric? I think they are plenty AoE capable, meaning they have the powers. I just want to see them do more damage. Right now it's downright anemic.
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You DID say Warshades were vastly superior and you wished PB's were on par with them. Joe said this was an AOE-Game. I merged those 2 themes. I even said Warshades are better with aoe's. The main difference between the 2 is Warshades are aoe monsters and PB's are better at dealing with single targets. If you want Peacebringers to be on par with your idea of "Vastly Superior" how else would they be changed? A second build up? A mire? Even with a damage buff you guys would complain about how your Warshade rolls around destroying groups of mobs in 70% of the game, while PB's aren't, and how that fact makes them subpar.
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Actually it does. As soon as you said fast TFs, you need to be able to clear large spawns
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I don't know what your idea of a fast TF is but I run them all the time and I kill minimal mobs. I'd rather have a clutch heal and a team member that can keep themself alive without lots of aggro and aoe's everywhere. What Speed TF do you do that requires you to kill large groups of spawns other than the ITF which has a kill counter? That is the one TF where I really like inviting Warshades and one where I would play my own specifically to make it go faster.
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And do you expect us to believe you're going to walk right up to that AV mob and start pounding on the minions? A warshade will do what any other player does: start damaging the AV, and with those minions standing around to saturate eclipse and the mires, and with bodies to saturate stygian circle when they die, a warshade will have done more damage by the time there's just one AV left than a peacebringer would, would have a persistent pet or two to do even more damage and would have more health with which to continue the fight.
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No, I ignore the minions and start pounding the AV to death. This is completely normal. Please highlight the part where I lead you to believe I would go pounding on minions... ever. I can't seem to find that part where I said this or your point. So the WS is good for one whole mob....great. Your really going to "TRUELY OUTSHINE" and dazzle me with your buffs off a single mob? or terrible Dwarf damage? I think not. What are you smoking? The mob goes down now what. We go right back to what I was saying.
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People have fought lvl 54 foes long before there was incarnate content and hit pretty consistently. In a game where two level 50 Accuracy IO enhancements put you at the tohit cap no one on a team running incarnate level content is going to be below that cap, a defense debuff isn't going to help you that much.
And as far as helping your team goes, debuff set powers like freezing rain, sleet, radiation infection and melt armor are going to do far more than your attacks, making your secondary effect rather redundant, don't you think? Never mind the fact that your team is likely not going to have much problem hitting them, either, because they're 99% of the time also slotted to the tohit cap.
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Go find the wiki link that states Warshades are affecting team tohit from their powers. I am comparing Warshades and Peacebringers not other AT's. While your there go look up Accuracy. I'm sure there is some cool info pulled from an Arcanaville post that explains the difference between acc, tohit, and defense. An ACC IO buffs accuracy, it is not the same as a tohit buff, it does not negate the usefulness of a -def debuff.
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Going through with my calculater, I find roughly 50 missions (give or take) that contain archvillains. I count just under 450 missions that don't, and that doesn't count talk missions and patrols.There's more to this game than task forces, although to read the forums you'd think that's all that people ran. If that were true, it wouldn't take so long to assemble them, would it?
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Go calculate the time that players spent on those missions that are not EB/AV free that are not tip or AE missions. I would be willing to bet that most of those missions that are played only get one or 2 runs per character because they are mandatory missions to unlock content, epics, or accolades. Lets be honest here, the only time players are willing to go kills tons of mobs is on a farm map or when they level. Once they hit 50's the game is TF's, trials, AV's, and other challenges that do not involve killing large numbers of mobs unless you are farming for something specific. I know people are farming for shards but most of them are doing this on a TF. If there was some other more effective way we would know about it and lots of people would be doing it instead. You only need to hit the objectives on a Tip mission there are tons of ppl speeding to objective for merits or alignment changes instead of killing a ton of mobs. Do you really believe players spread their time evenly on the content available in the game? I read the forums and play the game.... Joe... there really are alot of people spending their time running TF's, trials, and raids to get get Shards and incarnate salvage. I'm not thinking about it, its reality. The time spent assembling a team depends on the time of day, the availability of players on your server, and the time/difficulty/player eligibility of the TF you are trying to form. What does forming a TF have to do with anything?
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You're not going to make a nova form that's sitting on 2200 HP, because that 2400 HP cap is there to give Dwarf Form more hit points. The White Dwarf power acts like a toggle-based essence boost, giving you 800 more hit points. Fully slotted, Essence Boost is going to give you just under 700 more hit points than you had before. This, added to the 1070 base hit points you already had, brings you right up to that 2400 cap (and a bit past).
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Damn Joe, I though you would have considered perma essence boost and IO bonuses as the reason for that HP number. The character I describe is my own. Its not some idea, its real.
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Warshades are demonstrably not inferior to Peacebringers in those areas where you claim they are weak, and no one is saying that AV's and PvP aren't important. Well, no one is saying that AV's aren't important, anyway. What we're saying is that they're such a small part of the entirety of the game that it makes little sense to leave a fantastic archetype like Peacebringers falling short in every other way because they are only adequate at those parts you enjoy.
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They fall short in some areas and excel at others. One kheld is not better than the other because they excel in opposite areas. That's the sum of the first post I put in this thread. A character with self buffs has an edge on a character that needs to go in melee to buff themselves off of an AV for survival. Why can't you understand this?
Big Self heals > Smaller heals possibly negated by incoming damage or failure to hit.
AV's and all content that contains them and PvP may represent a smaller portion of the overall content available to players. Players don't spread their time evenly around all the content. People are playing content involving EB/AV's more often than all that other content. You said it even seems that way. Since there are alot of players engaged in content involving AV's you can't say that PB's fail over half of the game. Another thing, I'm not saying Warshades are worthless but they are less useful for that specific situation. They are pretty worthless in pvp though, lol. They were never designed for it and never adapted for it.
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No one in this thread thus far has argued that Peacebringers need to be more AOE centric. In fact, I would argue that they are JUST AS AOE CAPABLE as Warshades. Solar Flare, White Dwarf Flare, Two AoE blasts in Nova, two AoE blasts in human, Photon Seekers and Dawn Strike make for enormous AoE potential. The only people mentioning AoE has been in the context of the Warshade depending on it.
It's not a matter of AoE verses Single Target - it's a matter archetype balance that covers everything from recharge to damage types to the degrees of effectiveness of certain powers (like stygian circle, for example) contrasted with the price for that effectiveness (or the lack thereof, in the stygian circle example).
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On paper they have they might have this capability. PB AOE's just scatter mobs and piss off teams. That one AOE stun is a horrible power. Photon Seekers have retarded AI and you know this. They work more often on single targets then multiple targets. I know you had to have experiences with Seekers just idling around and unsure of which target they should hit. At least WS AOE's have a mez and slow added to them making them more useful for any AOE-centric activities. Being able to hit build up, pull out seekers, or hit light form and strike a target before its aggro'd and dealing damage gives PB's the upper hand on single targets. Having access to 3 Heals that never miss or fail help too.
Look, I'd like to see upgrades to Kheldians as a whole and improvements to some of the powers as much as any other poster. I play both Khelds so why wouldn't I want to see that? PB powers need improvements but there are some Warshade powers that could be better too. I do not share this view that Warshades are "Vastly Superior" at the majority of the game. I do not believe PB's were ever meant to be great at dealing with large mobs like Warshades can. Unless someone has some real good evidence of this other than, "Well, there are lots of groups of mobs in the game, like 70% of it, therefore they are teh Uber and PB's are horribad", I am done here.
There will be no participation until the 2010 awards are posted.
