Still some stuff for me to take away from all of this.
By
Angry_Citizen,
Posted on: 2012-11-24 22:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
So what you're saying is, women can't decide for themselves whether to identify themselves publicly as female because to do so is sexist.|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
This ^
I was going to write a long explanation to hopefully shed some light on why I don't believe that should be on their sig, but I think others can say it better. "Text-based computer-mediated communication, with its lack of physical and auditory cues, makes the gender of online communicators irrelevant or invisible, allowing women and men to participate equally, in contrast with traditional patterns of male dominance observed in face-to face conversations." Code:
Danet, Brenda. 1998. "Text as mask: Gender and identity on the Internet." In S. Jones (ed.), Cybersociety 2.0, 129-158. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Graddol, David and Joan Swann. 1989. Gender Voices. London: Basil Blackwell. "Specifically, the Internet has been claimed to lead to greater gender equality, with women, as the socially, politically, and economically less powerful gender, especially likely to reap its benefits." Code:
Herring, Susan C. "Gender and power in online communication." The handbook of language and gender (2003): 202-228. "A large and growing list of articles, mostly looking at newsgroup and email communications, suggest that norms of gendered behavior continue to shape online interactions." (Nice way of saying, stating you're female puts you into the sexist placement you already have in society, online.) Code:
Cherny, Lynn. 1994. Gender differences in text-based virtual reality. Pp. 102115 in Cultural Performances: Proceedings of the Third Berkeley Women and Language Conference, edited by Mary Bucholtz, et al. Berkeley: Berkeley Women and Language Group, University of California. Herring, Susan C. 1992. Gender and Participation in Computer-Mediated Linguistic Discourse. Washington, DC: ERIC Clearinghouse on Languages and Linguistics, document no. ED345552. Herring, Susan C. 1996. Gender and Democracy in Computer-Mediated Communication. Pp. 476489 in Computerization and Controversy, 2nd ed, edited by Rob Kling. Kling Diego: Academic Press. Kramarae, Cheris H. Jeanie Taylor. 1993. Women and Men on Electronic Networks: A Conversation or a Monologue? Pp. 5261 in Women, Information Technology, and Scholarship, edited by H. J. Taylor, C. Kramarae and M. Ebben. Ebben, IL: Center for Advanced Study Sutton, Laurel. 1994. Using Usenet: Gender, Power, and Silence in Electronic Discourse. The Proceedings of the 20th Annual Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society. Berkeley: Berkeley Linguistics Society. We, Gladys. 1994. Cross-gender Communication in Cyberspace. Arachnet Electronic Journal on Virtual Culture 2. Obtainable on the World Wide Web at http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/stacks/e/ejvc/aejvc-v02n3.html. You could go ahead and argue that its our culture that's sexist, and you shouldn't have to hide your gender...except that nobody is asking you to hide it, just not whip it out left and right. Some other posters here are female as well, but aren't judged the same way you might be because of that. Hope that helped. Check out any of the above sources if you want to read into it more. |
Need I say more?
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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Basically.
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Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
So what you're saying is, women can't decide for themselves whether to identify themselves publicly as female because to do so is sexist.
Need I say more? |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
Hey guys I'm not a female but I will tell you what I am, a Nigerian Prince if you all will just send me a small processing fee in travelers checks of 10K American dollars you will get back $547,000 Canadian rupys!
Better hurry limited time offer, not valid in Long Island NY or Quebec Ontario.
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Alright then. Then explain to me why when speaking here, if not known of the sex, people automatically assume male? Like they done in the past before it was in the sig, each and everytime. Never assume female, not a single time. |
Originally Posted by Sentry4
This ^
I was going to write a long explanation to hopefully shed some light on why I don't believe that should be on their sig, but I think others can say it better. "Text-based computer-mediated communication, with its lack of physical and auditory cues, makes the gender of online communicators irrelevant or invisible, allowing women and men to participate equally, in contrast with traditional patterns of male dominance observed in face-to face conversations." Code:
Danet, Brenda. 1998. "Text as mask: Gender and identity on the Internet." In S. Jones (ed.), Cybersociety 2.0, 129-158. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Graddol, David and Joan Swann. 1989. Gender Voices. London: Basil Blackwell. "Specifically, the Internet has been claimed to lead to greater gender equality, with women, as the socially, politically, and economically less powerful gender, especially likely to reap its benefits." Code:
Herring, Susan C. "Gender and power in online communication." The handbook of language and gender (2003): 202-228. "A large and growing list of articles, mostly looking at newsgroup and email communications, suggest that norms of gendered behavior continue to shape online interactions." (Nice way of saying, stating you're female puts you into the sexist placement you already have in society, online.) Code:
Cherny, Lynn. 1994. “Gender differences in text-based virtual reality.” Pp. 102–115 in Cultural Performances: Proceedings of the Third Berkeley Women and Language Conference, edited by Mary Bucholtz, et al. Berkeley: Berkeley Women and Language Group, University of California. Herring, Susan C. 1992. “Gender and Participation in Computer-Mediated Linguistic Discourse.” Washington, DC: ERIC Clearinghouse on Languages and Linguistics, document no. ED345552. Herring, Susan C. 1996. “Gender and Democracy in Computer-Mediated Communication.” Pp. 476–489 in Computerization and Controversy, 2nd ed, edited by Rob Kling. Kling Diego: Academic Press. Kramarae, Cheris H. Jeanie Taylor. 1993. “Women and Men on Electronic Networks: A Conversation or a Monologue?” Pp. 52–61 in Women, Information Technology, and Scholarship, edited by H. J. Taylor, C. Kramarae and M. Ebben. Ebben, IL: Center for Advanced Study Sutton, Laurel. 1994. “Using Usenet: Gender, Power, and Silence in Electronic Discourse. The Proceedings of the 20th Annual Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society. Berkeley: Berkeley Linguistics Society. We, Gladys. 1994. “Cross-gender Communication in Cyberspace. Arachnet Electronic Journal on Virtual Culture 2. Obtainable on the World Wide Web at http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/stacks/e/ejvc/aejvc-v02n3.html. You could go ahead and argue that its our culture that's sexist, and you shouldn't have to hide your gender...except that nobody is asking you to hide it, just not whip it out left and right. Some other posters here are female as well, but aren't judged the same way you might be because of that. Hope that helped. Check out any of the above sources if you want to read into it more. |
While some may not see the big deal, I see it as a little deal, but a niggle nonetheless to be constantly called a male because of people's assumptions. Like I said, someone else suggested it was the natural thing to assume male first unless otherwise stated and if I wanted to not be assumed male, then maybe I should put it in my sig. Thus I did.
But as usual, people made it a big issue prior and now of course, making a big issue now that it's there. Either way, it seems, someone will complain and make a fuss about it.
So sincey ou brought sexist into the equation, I think it's very sexist to assume that everyone that post on the forum is male unless stated otherwise. I think it's sexist to assume that a person is male just because they dont state their sex. As someone else also pointed out, there is not any text based gender neutral way of saying stuff so, then why dont people assume female every now and then or if it wasnt treuely slanted then it would be 50/50 about on guessing male or female but no, always assuemd male. That is what is truely sexist.
If it's gender neutral online with equal playing field then there would be not a constant assumption of male when gender is not stated.
On another note, if it didnt truely matter then this discussion about MY signature would not even be a subject worth talking about and it would have been truely irrelevent and viewed as nothing more but another signature but apparently that is not ture because here we are talking about whether or not someone choose to say they are female or not as if it's a big deal. Not to mention, the assumption of being male if sex is not stated. So that gender neutral thing, at least on this forum, is a load of bull as posts in the past have shown especially when the signature did not exist.
Just because I dont post some pink cutesy pic as an avatar or have some "traditional" girly screen name doesnt automatically mean I'm male, as what has been assumed in the past.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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I already pointed that out. It's a remnant of language that never completely went away. To say it implies sexism is just silly, except when claiming the victim role for the purpose of making other people look bad. |
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
So sincey ou brought sexist into the equation, I think it's very sexist to assume that everyone that post on the forum is male unless stated otherwise. I think it's sexist to assume that a person is male just because they dont state their sex. As someone else also pointed out, there is not any text based gender neutral way of saying stuff so, then why dont people assume female every now and then or if it wasnt treuely slanted then it would be 50/50 about on guessing male or female but no, always assuemd male. That is what is truely sexist.
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It's not "assuming" the person is male. It's just that until very recently, it could be used in any situation where the gender was not known.
You recommended She be used for the generic instead, but remember we're living in the "race to be the biggest victim" era of society, so that would just end up being reverse sexist, ESPECIALLY if it was done as a solution to the "assumed male" pronoun being sexist. An entirely new pronoun is needed, if anything.
I dunno. My motto is everyone online is a 45 year old man in a cheetos stained t-shirt. Especially the girls.
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And thus the whole point of the sig. People dont have to assume anymore here. |
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
I already pointed that out. It's a remnant of language that never completely went away. To say it implies sexism is just silly, except when claiming the victim role for the purpose of making other people look bad.
It's not "assuming" the person is male. It's just that until very recently, it could be used in any situation where the gender was not known. You recommended She be used for the generic instead, but remember we're living in the "race to be the biggest victim" era of society, so that would just end up being reverse sexist, ESPECIALLY if it was done as a solution to the "assumed male" pronoun being sexist. An entirely new pronoun is needed, if anything. |
but statements like "Stating you are female before any other impression (Except for possibly your name/forum avatar) is kind of asking for sexism." is seeming to say that I'm asking for sexism by stating I'm female instead of just letting me assumed male, which in actually if that was the case then being assumed male wouldnt be happening it would be about equal either way. Basically if it's ok, by that statement, to be assumed male, then why isnt it equally ok to be assumed female? And answer like "oh that is just the way it is" doesnt mean the underlying thing about it in itself is not sexist. If it isnt, then it shouldnt be automatically assumed male unless specifically stated. To avoid that, it may be best to ask first before assuming gender if the typer/texter/speaker is going to use gender based language towards their audience but since they are probably not, then the sig. is and should be justified. And Justified even more by your statement.
Which leads me to my next question those those that seem to think my sig is THAT big of a deal. With all that have been said, what is the issue? It should be easier now. It eliminate the guessing. And why is saying female is an issue but not for a male to say the same thing in their signature? Sounds like classic sexism to me.
I never recommended that she be used as generic. I asked why is it always assumed male and if the internet is supposedly gender neutral and gender is irrelevant why cant it be assumed female at times? Or why isnt there a gender neutral term? From my understanding there isnt a gender neutral term and thus the internet is not gender neutral as decribed since there isnt a word in existance, as stated, that express gender neutral.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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The pronoun "he" is male/neutral. The pronoun "she" is only female. So if you don't know the gender "he" was the default until rather recently.|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
Alright then. Then explain to me why when speaking here, if not known of the sex, people automatically assume male?
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edit: Sniped by the eccentric one.
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sexist. |
Originally Posted by blackjak
I dunno. My motto is everyone online is a 45 year old man in a cheetos stained t-shirt. Especially the girls.
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Always have to be a man right?
God forbid a female uses the internet.
I guess next you are going to say that women should not be in the work force because we are only good for making babies and taking care of the house and having dinner on the tabel for when the man gets home from work.
Is this the 1950s or 2010s?
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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This lmao so true cheeto bastards all of ya you disgust me!
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Originally Posted by blackjak
I dunno. My motto is everyone online is a 45 year old man in a cheetos stained t-shirt. Especially the girls.
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you said it not me |
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
sexist.
Always have to be a man right? God forbid a female uses the internet. I guess next you are going to say that women should not be in the work force because we are only good for making babies and taking care of the house and having dinner on the tabel for when the man gets home from work. Is this the 1950s or 2010s? |
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So all the catgirls are actually women?!! Maybe I 'm a woman. I don't recall saying i was male. Now who's sexist?
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
sexist.
Always have to be a man right? God forbid a female uses the internet. I guess next you are going to say that women should not be in the work force because we are only good for making babies and taking care of the house and having dinner on the tabel for when the man gets home from work. Is this the 1950s or 2010s? |
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who ever said you are either or? I didnt say you had to be male to be sexist now did I? No, I dont think so. Nowhere did I say that. Nor did I say that all catgirls are actually females nor did I say they are all male. |
Originally Posted by blackjak
So all the catgirls are actually women?!! Maybe I 'm a woman. I don't recall saying i was male. Now who's sexist?
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But you did say that your motto is everyone online is a 45 year old man in a cheetos stained t-shirt. Especially the girls. As if none of them can be actually females.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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right. Meaning not anymore. And it's not only "he" that I'm talking about. Last I checked male was not gender neutral.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
The pronoun "he" is male/neutral. The pronoun "she" is only female. So if you don't know the gender "he" was the default until rather recently.
edit: Sniped by the eccentric one. |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
I'm just gonna say it, all catgirls were/are males.
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Do you know that for a fact? Did you ask every last one of them whether they were male or female? Do you even know every single catgirl?
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
I'm just gonna say it, all catgirls were/are males.
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-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Looks at it suspiciously. I bet it does.
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Indeed. And if there is an option to petition for such a thing, I'm open to it. The amount of time I've wasted on political correctness when it comes to forum posts is on gender issues is crazy. Often I'll try to refrain from them altogether and only use the forum handle, which has the side-effect of making me seem like a computer from a pre-90's sci-fi movie. Otherwise I'm replacing "Him" with "him or her", and all other variants that it implies, which is equally annoying to write (and probably to read). |
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
And thus the whole point of the sig. People dont have to assume anymore here.
but statements like "Stating you are female before any other impression (Except for possibly your name/forum avatar) is kind of asking for sexism." is seeming to say that I'm asking for sexism by stating I'm female instead of just letting me assumed male, which in actually if that was the case then being assumed male wouldnt be happening it would be about equal either way. Basically if it's ok, by that statement, to be assumed male, then why isnt it equally ok to be assumed female? And answer like "oh that is just the way it is" doesnt mean the underlying thing about it in itself is not sexist. If it isnt, then it shouldnt be automatically assumed male unless specifically stated. To avoid that, it may be best to ask first before assuming gender if the typer/texter/speaker is going to use gender based language towards their audience but since they are probably not, then the sig. is and should be justified. And Justified even more by your statement. Which leads me to my next question those those that seem to think my sig is THAT big of a deal. With all that have been said, what is the issue? It should be easier now. It eliminate the guessing. And why is saying female is an issue but not for a male to say the same thing in their signature? Sounds like classic sexism to me. I never recommended that she be used as generic. I asked why is it always assumed male and if the internet is supposedly gender neutral and gender is irrelevant why cant it be assumed female at times? Or why isnt there a gender neutral term? From my understanding there isnt a gender neutral term and thus the internet is not gender neutral as decribed since there isnt a word in existance, as stated, that express gender neutral. |
And while I don't think it's 'asking' for sexism to publish your sex/gender, I also understand why some would think it does. "Asking" was the wrong word. More like "opening oneself to." One of the things I immediately loved about the text-based communication, back when it wasn't even the web, just local dial-in BBS networks, was that it eliminated the eyes from the equation. Sight, the sense that all of humanity uses to get a first impression of someone (which is the LEAST effective way to get an impression of a person) is conveniently removed online. This instantly allows for a deeper conversation, with no assumptions about a person's background, ethnicity, sex (again, I'm going by the idea that "he" is being used in its traditional English use, not as an assumption that everyone on the forums is male) , etc. It's understandable why some would think broadcasting that information might be detrimental to the internet as a communication tool. I don't think it's a valid reason to censor whether or not people choose to publish it though, and I don't think Sentry4 was saying that either. I think Sentry4 was just suggesting a reason why it perhaps should not be published.
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Yeah.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Indeed. And if there is an option to petition for such a thing, I'm open to it. The amount of time I've wasted on political correctness when it comes to forum posts is on gender issues is crazy. Often I'll try to refrain from them altogether and only use the forum handle, which has the side-effect of making me seem like a computer from a pre-90's sci-fi movie. Otherwise I'm replacing "Him" with "him or her", and all other variants that it implies, which is equally annoying to write (and probably to read).
And while I don't think it's 'asking' for sexism to publish your sex/gender, I also understand why some would think it does. "Asking" was the wrong word. More like "opening oneself to." One of the things I immediately loved about the text-based communication, back when it wasn't even the web, just local dial-in BBS networks, was that it eliminated the eyes from the equation. Sight, the sense that all of humanity uses to get a first impression of someone (which is the LEAST effective way to get an impression of a person) is conveniently removed online. This instantly allows for a deeper conversation, with no assumptions about a person's background, ethnicity, sex (again, I'm going by the idea that "he" is being used in its traditional English use, not as an assumption that everyone on the forums is male) , etc. It's understandable why some would think broadcasting that information might be detrimental to the internet as a communication tool. I don't think it's a valid reason to censor whether or not people choose to publish it though, and I don't think Sentry4 was saying that either. I think Sentry4 was just suggesting a reason why it perhaps should not be published. |
But seems that assumptions about background, sex, ethnicity and etc have been/currently being made regardless.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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This is why I never make any reference to my gender, race, or age in forums. I like the notion that my posts can be judged solely on the merit of my ideas.
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Originally Posted by Sentry4
"Specifically, the Internet has been claimed to lead to greater gender equality, with women, as the socially, politically, and economically less powerful gender, especially likely to reap its benefits."
"A large and growing list of articles, mostly looking at newsgroup and email communications, suggest that norms of gendered behavior continue to shape online interactions." (Nice way of saying, stating you're female puts you into the sexist placement you already have in society, online.) |
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Same here. That isn't sexism, it's self preservation.|
Originally Posted by blackjak
I dunno. My motto is everyone online is a 45 year old man in a cheetos stained t-shirt. Especially the girls.
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Saves on mind bleach too.
EL, you've obviously never heard of the slightly tongue in cheek expression "there are no gurls on the interwebz!".
That has nothing to do with sexism, it's do with demographics. Granted, there are more girl gamers now than there used to be, but it's still predominantly a past time enjoyed by men and therefore for every player you might come across, there's a stronger likelihood that player will be male. It's true that there are some games that have stronger appeal for women than men and that the distributions of men and women in those games might be different, but in general it's a fairly safe assumption.
Sexism isn't the assumption that a past time is generally enjoyed by one sex more than the other, sexism is saying that one gender shouldn't enjoy that past time based on their gender alone.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
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Yeah not familiar with that term, which seems a bit of an oddd saying. Tongue in cheek or not, it's no more nor any less odder than saying that "there are no african americans on the internet" because the game at hand have a stronger appeal to caucasians and because caucasian is what you are more likely to come across and thus it's safe to assume that everyone is caucasian.
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Originally Posted by SteelRat
EL, you've obviously never heard of the slightly tongue in cheek expression "there are no gurls on the interwebz!".
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-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
well, I got 3 people into the game, 2 stayed 8 years and got one more in. given that my social circle included exactly 3 gamers and one doesnt play pc games, think thats not a bad record.
Its funny, I sometimes feel that the games that I think are really great are also just beyond the at-a-glance accessibility that leads people to go play skyrim or battlefield in droves (note, i do like skyrim, but if we dont get spears in dragonborn im hurting people) . games like okami, psychonauts, godhand and beyond good and evil. none of these games were really that out there once you gave them a shot, and all of them brought something memorable to the table...and all sold poorly. If i were to be cynical, i'd say people can only handle so much quality, too much and they get confused.
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What do they say about assumption?|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
Yeah not familiar with that term, which seems a bit of an oddd saying. Tongue in cheek or not, it's no more nor any less odder than saying that "there are no african americans on the internet" because the game at hand have a stronger appeal to caucasians and because caucasian is what you are more likely to come across and thus it's safe to assume that everyone is caucasian.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-2NimrRPAQ
Don't let these guys get you down Evil, at the end of the day its your signature do with it what you want. No matter what you put there someone would find something to complain about it anyway. It's quite funny to see people get so upset over something so meaningless. People need to take a step back from the computer more often and look at the bigger picture me thinks.
I was going to write a long explanation to hopefully shed some light on why I don't believe that should be on their sig, but I think others can say it better.
"Text-based computer-mediated communication, with its lack of physical and auditory cues,
makes the gender of online communicators irrelevant or invisible, allowing women and men to participate equally, in contrast with traditional patterns of male dominance observed in face-to face conversations."
"Specifically, the Internet has been claimed to lead to greater gender equality, with women, as the socially, politically, and economically less powerful gender, especially likely to reap its benefits."
"A large and growing list of articles, mostly looking at newsgroup and email communications, suggest that norms of gendered behavior continue to shape online interactions." (Nice way of saying, stating you're female puts you into the sexist placement you already have in society, online.)
You could go ahead and argue that its our culture that's sexist, and you shouldn't have to hide your gender...except that nobody is asking you to hide it, just not whip it out left and right. Some other posters here are female as well, but aren't judged the same way you might be because of that.
Hope that helped. Check out any of the above sources if you want to read into it more.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.