Where CoH went wrong


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by GadgetDon View Post
I know that as OP I have no control over the thread, but I'll still ask:

This thread was set up to discuss mistakes made in design and execution in the game. It really wasn't meant to be one more thread to endlessly discuss the shutdown and NCSoft and the Titan group and the SaveCoH movement and so on and so forth.

So, consider this a request, can that discussion be moved elsewhere?
Prolly not.

To borrow an advertising slogan: "It's everywhere you want to be."


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

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1. The endurance-based throttle on player progress in the early years drove a huge number of players out of the game, as many wanted to do more than watch their green and/or blue bar refill while sitting in a cave in the Hollows. On that note, I personally watched a fair number of players try out COH with a goofy "I get to be a hero" grin on their face when they started, in a kind of "gaming cafe", where people paid for playing time. Their expression would usually change to anger as they watched blue / green bars slowly refill themselves and/or they were hauling themselves back to the Hollows yet again, after being defeated. Although a fair number experimented with COH, in the end only a very small number of players freely chose COH in the gaming cafe that I frequented for a while, when given a choice among many games, and that ultimately was a sign of a long run trend.

2. ED and the global defense nerf was handled very badly. Years later I still remember how angry players were on the forums and in the game; it led to the loss of a lot of active players.

3. The whole "items and money" side of the game was implemented very badly. New players always started out dirt poor, unable to afford SOs without some kind of market activity, gifts, or TF action -- as if being new wasn't enough of a handicap to building a viable character. Item and inf sinks never worked properly. The IO system and markets had the potential to draw in (or at least keep) players, but it was implemented in a piecemeal, badly thought out way. Markets were hobbled by having tens of thousands of screens for players to wade through, when you added them all up; given the complexity of the markets, most players responded by ignoring them.


 

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Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo View Post
1. The endurance-based throttle on player progress in the early years drove a huge number of players out of the game, as many wanted to do more than watch their green and/or blue bar refill while sitting in a cave in the Hollows.
The sit for ten minutes reading your spellbook to get enough mana to cast enough spells to kill another mob was something that should have stayed in EQ.

Staff Fighting and its Form of Soul made even a brute's damage aura sustainable before SOs. Even WoW has jumped mana regen up to absurdly fast levels for low level characters. Sitting around and resting might be realistic but it sure isn't fun. Especially when you have a cooldown on rest. And when you have the fewest slots but only had access to the weakest enhancements it was double unfun.

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3. The whole "items and money" side of the game was implemented very badly. New players always started out dirt poor, unable to afford SOs without some kind of market activity, gifts, or TF action -- as if being new wasn't enough of a handicap to building a viable character.
I read it was part of Jack's vision that players would trade unusable enhancements amongst themselves and that was one of the reasons why you weren't supposed to be able to keep up with normal gameplay. Once we had people with multiples of the influence cap they probably could've brought the cost of SOs to be more in line with what you'd generate through normal play (or vice versa) and not the AH.


 

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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter View Post
Doubt that would've ever happened though with Marvel being a rival comic company that is owned by one of the most powerful entertainment empires in the known universe.

Actually, not too long ago I was wondering if Disney taking over Marvel could've factored into the shutdown. Kinda like, "Well, now there's definitely no way in Hell we can compete. Might as well quit while we're ahead."
While I could see them seeing a marvel superhero mmo as a serious threat and a reason to shut CoH down, the fact that there is no known Marvel MMO coming, would suggest to me it wouldn't be a factor.

Unless they consider Marvel Heroes an MMO, when really it's just Diablo 3 with Marvel skins.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
yeah.

But unfortunately it did, but the main question should be is "now what?" No matter what they say now, or dont say, those the time between those messages took too long for many people. So what could they possibly say that, assuming people are ready to actually listen to them, could make things better about their decison?

You know, I read that Glitch posting about that shut down and how their official response over it was mostly applauded for the way they handled it and from the looks of it, they always been in touch and more intune with the customer base. I just wonder why is companies with good service and communication skills usually end up being the smallest ones, with a small customer base, although tight, yet the cold hearted corporations that have "robots" hired for PR seem to rake in millions and in some cases billions? Shouldnt people be flocking to those companies with good customer services?
Good customer service doesn't mean a better product.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Unless they consider Marvel Heroes an MMO, when really it's just Diablo 3 with Marvel skins.
Yeah, I dunno what was originally being said about it now, but for quite I while the impression I got about it was that there was a Marvel MMO in the works. After it went live, I was going to roll Statesman and then suggest NCsoft sue them for allowing it.


 

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Originally Posted by Vyver View Post
Remember when Megas XLR was a popular show with good ratings, but was canceled because the brand-new CEO of CN "didn't get it".


thats a thing that happened
I am afraid that that is EXACTLY what happened here.

BTW, similar happened to the original run of Doctor Who, coupled with a "power struggle" that slowly siphoned the show's budget until it was forced to be canceled.


 

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Bad things:

<ballmer>Currencies, currencies, currencies!</ballmer>

Ambushes spawning right on top of you is terrible. Even spawning right in front of you is very immersion-breaking. I could have sworn that long ago the game would try to spawn critters out of line of sight and they'd swarm on you from around a corner, but my memory may be playing tricks on me.

Bug fixes should have been a higher priority, especially for the longstanding ones.

Release cycles being set in stone and issues going live with huge glaring problems that were reported many times in beta. My running joke was, "That's why they call them 'issues'!"

Wasn't really a fan of the incarnate trial grind. I used to raid in WoW. If that's what I wanted to do, I would have stayed there.

Crafting was interesting at first but quickly got tedious, especially when it came to incarnate abilities. In-game tools to streamline it would have been welcome.

Soooooo many props that I wanted as a base item.

A good thing:

I'm probably in the minority in that I actually really enjoyed the Praetorian leveling experience. The whole package: the storylines, the side switching / double agent mechanic, and the increased base difficulty. I do think the mission designers overused ambushes, not because they made it too difficult, but just because by the end of it they became expected (and a bit cliché) and were no longer a surprise.

Favorite GR moment -- running with my usual group of friends, doing a mission in Neutropolis, being warned that we needed to clear out of the lab before the timer expired. As usual, we intentionally waited for the timer to run down, because hey -- why would we want to pass up more enemies to get XP from? Then there was the big yellow text: "Anti-matter has arrived! Flee for your lives!" And sure enough, a Level 40 (!) Anti-matter AV showed up and wiped the floor with our level 18 team. We were laughing so hard about that message, "Flee for your lives! They really weren't kidding this time!".


 

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Originally Posted by Codewalker View Post
Bad things:

<ballmer>Currencies, currencies, currencies!</ballmer>

Ambushes spawning right on top of you is terrible. Even spawning right in front of you is very immersion-breaking. I could have sworn that long ago the game would try to spawn critters out of line of sight and they'd swarm on you from around a corner, but my memory may be playing tricks on me.
You're recalling correctly, that's how the game works. Except in the newest zones with their open-world quests. It's something that both WoW and CO fail miserably at, because if you don't put down the enemy immediately and move on, another spawn *will* pop up to kill you. It's one of the main reasons I hated the revamped Atlas Park so much. It's an annoyingly good chance for faceplanting. I think it also happened in the new Dark Astoria, too, but I was only there once.


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Wasn't really a fan of the incarnate trial grind. I used to raid in WoW. If that's what I wanted to do, I would have stayed there.

Crafting was interesting at first but quickly got tedious, especially when it came to incarnate abilities. In-game tools to streamline it would have been welcome.
Yeah, raids. Ugh.

I didn't understand the point of the complexity of IOs, except as a method for removing Influence from the players' coffers. The level-restricted choices seemed like a holdover from the original design, but the weird 2.5% of this and 1.7% of that versus 10% of this and 12% of that meant that certain sets were always in demand while others were orphaned. Much better to make them Acc+Dam bonus *or* Dam+End bonus... which do you need more? That would've led to more customization, I think.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Yeah, raids. Ugh.
Raids are... hmmm. This game needed raids. But not the raids we got in trial form post GR. Well... technically they worked...

This game needed raid content that multiple groups and large guilds were able to do together, but that type of content should not have defined advancement. ALSO story should not have been strongly locked behind them either.

One idea I liked (and I guess incarnate system is SORT of like this) was to add new enhancement slots. Slots that you were able to add enhancements to and these enhancements would affect all powers. We would have been able to slot anything there, from regular SOs to IOs. Add to this a special set of enhancements that can only be slotted there, and make a purple class version that can only be acquired via raiding.

This would have kept a reason to raid, but it would not have locked all progression under raiding.


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I didn't understand the point of the complexity of IOs, except as a method for removing Influence from the players' coffers.
Yea crafting complexity was insane. I hated the system at first, it stopped feeling like a hobby and more like work. I didn’t get into it until much much later when merits alleviated the feel of randomness a bit.

I think they should have created 3 salvage pieces total:

Normal, Uncommon and Rare. That's it. No "Ring of doom" or "psychotic winder", just Normal Salvage, Uncommon Salvage and Rare Salvage. These should not be categories, just plain and simple "crafting currencies".

Then, the higher level minimum "equip" level is for the salvage, the more salvage units it cost. That's yet another complexity in the system, not only did they create a huge array of colorful salvage, they also divided it in 3(?) level ranges, earning low level salvage was useless for high level salvage.

Finally, if you have an invention that can be level 20 min and 40 max, just make the thing exemplar all the way to 20!!! It was absurd that players had to hunt down for the lowest level version of an invention!

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The level-restricted choices seemed like a holdover from the original design, but the weird 2.5% of this and 1.7% of that versus 10% of this and 12% of that meant that certain sets were always in demand while others were orphaned. Much better to make them Acc+Dam bonus *or* Dam+End bonus... which do you need more? That would've led to more customization, I think.
Yea, they went WAY too stingy in everything but recharge and defense. I partially blame Arcanaville's campaigns on SR! Didn’t exactly turn out as she wanted but I think her ranting made the devs thing def was so unfairly attacked that they had to be generous with it. And SR was so unable to benefit from it that def IOs had to grant lots of recharge.

BAH! I'm becoming a cranky old man!!!


 

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Originally Posted by Impish Kat View Post

Disagree with this somewhat. Bases should never have been perma-linked to PvP. It should have been OPTIONAL. Many groups used their bases for RP purposes, or even simply as showcases for their visions... raiding and PvP was never on their radar.

HOWEVER, I do agree that bases could have used more functionality in terms of group activities. The re-vamped CoP was, even considering it's flaws, a step in the right direction.

I'm not sure what you were disagreeing with. I only referenced it because it was actually part of the system at one time so rightfully assumed if bases were ever fully fleshed out, it would only be one among many options. I never indicated it was the only option. And how was it perma-linked? I vaguely remember being in an SG that participated in PvP for a short time but wasn't that linked to certain items that placed inside the base? i.e. if you didn't use certain items, no PvP. I disagree PvP was not on their radar because unlike anything else anyone may have heard about base systems, it actually existed and was playable at one point in time.


 

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Ironically, my VG's RP made little sense without base-raiding being a reality.


 

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Originally Posted by Tutelary View Post
And how was it perma-linked? I vaguely remember being in an SG that participated in PvP for a short time but wasn't that linked to certain items that placed inside the base? i.e. if you didn't use certain items, no PvP.
Originally, the base editor enforced strict restrictions related to PVP. Certain items, such as power and control items, had to be reachable via a clear path -- no objects (even floor tiles counted) could stand in the way. Doorways were also subject to those restrictions and so much as looking at one funny could cause you to not be able to place anything nearby.

All of that so that if someday, you decided you wanted to turn your base into a PVP raiding base, it would be "fair" to the opponents who raided it.


 

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Originally Posted by Codewalker View Post
Originally, the base editor enforced strict restrictions related to PVP. Certain items, such as power and control items, had to be reachable via a clear path -- no objects (even floor tiles counted) could stand in the way. Doorways were also subject to those restrictions and so much as looking at one funny could cause you to not be able to place anything nearby.

All of that so that if someday, you decided you wanted to turn your base into a PVP raiding base, it would be "fair" to the opponents who raided it.
So, would it be fair to say even as an RPer, you would not be excluded from PvP base items, say you liked their appearance, because you could simply move a floor tile into a non-PvP position?

And, my god, no wonder that system went away. That sounds like a horrible mess trying make a base PvP-ready, in respect to coding that is.


 

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Originally Posted by Codewalker View Post
Originally, the base editor enforced strict restrictions related to PVP. Certain items, such as power and control items, had to be reachable via a clear path -- no objects (even floor tiles counted) could stand in the way. Doorways were also subject to those restrictions and so much as looking at one funny could cause you to not be able to place anything nearby.

All of that so that if someday, you decided you wanted to turn your base into a PVP raiding base, it would be "fair" to the opponents who raided it.
Yeah... with all the whines I heard about PvP getting wrecked, part of me wonders what kind of a game this would be if they'd focused more on it. I can't imagine trying to balance a game like this for PvP. There's just way too many combinations to consider, which is a major reason most games all have the very same basic class system. So much time would have been wasted on PvP balance, that we would scarcely have ever seen anything new. Or they would've scrapped the mixable powers system we love for something much simpler. Imagine how much fear the devs would have had every time they introduced a new powerset. Re-balancing over and over and over. PvP balance... nothing cool would ever have been added.

This game was pretty rare, in that many characters were made because the concept was cool, not because it was the template flavor of the moment.


 

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PvP in a PvE MMO usually boils down to "PvP is why we can't have nice things".

Why PvP is "popular" in games with gear differences (CoH, WoW) is beyond me. Nothing says skill like globalling a fresh 90 in greens with your more-purple-than-barney character.


 

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I have trouble understanding why PvP is popular in MMO's at all. After playing numerous ones, and seeing the same strategies used over and over in all of them, and analyzing how it all works, there seems to be no type of PvP game that is less based in skill (with a bunch of maxed out characters, it all boils down to the dice rolls, which is akin to gambling). But at the same time, there is also no type of game that has MORE ego problems and flame wars.

The only exception to this rule seems to be RTS gaming on battle.net, but that's a culture of its very own.


 

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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter View Post
I have trouble understanding why PvP is popular in MMO's at all. After playing numerous ones, and seeing the same strategies used over and over in all of them, and analyzing how it all works, there seems to be no type of PvP game that is less based in skill (with a bunch of maxed out characters, it all boils down to the dice rolls, which is akin to gambling). But at the same time, there is also no type of game that has MORE ego problems and flame wars.

The only exception to this rule seems to be RTS gaming on battle.net, but that's a culture of its very own.
Actually, with TERA, I found (but not totally) skill to be a bit more of a factor, with how it's combat works (you can move out of the way to dodge for instance), buuuut, gear and level still have a factor in it.

But when it's tab target and rely on RNG, like CoH does, yeah, less a skill factor.

Also, we had some of the dumbest PvP anyways. Duelers in open PvP zones crying when someone interrupted their duel proved this


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Also, we had some of the dumbest PvP anyways. Duelers in open PvP zones crying when someone interrupted their duel proved this
That's mostly evidence that we should have been given some form of one-on-one duel mechanic that was usable in any zone.

I think Pocket D would have been INCREDIBLY more intersting if once in a while a real fight broke out there, but an entirely consentual one.


 

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
That's mostly evidence that we should have been given some form of one-on-one duel mechanic that was usable in any zone.

I think Pocket D would have been INCREDIBLY more intersting if once in a while a real fight broke out there, but an entirely consentual one.
I always thought it'd be more interresting, if a text fight in Pocket D broke out, they got kicked out of the club, so it stuck with the lore.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
That's mostly evidence that we should have been given some form of one-on-one duel mechanic that was usable in any zone.

I think Pocket D would have been INCREDIBLY more intersting if once in a while a real fight broke out there, but an entirely consentual one.
I think this was discussed early on, and it was never implemented because it seemed too "un-hero-like" for them to be randomly bashing each others' brains in (even though based on today's movies, seems very normal). So, the arenas were done as an alternative.

All of this I thought was a detriment though. It took away the potential for a lot of fun player events that could've been held in public, where people could watch. Also, in most games that allow it, duels often get used for enhancing RP.

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I always thought it'd be more interresting, if a text fight in Pocket D broke out, they got kicked out of the club, so it stuck with the lore.
*zap* power suppression field.


 

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I always felt that a consenting duel option would have been great for this game for all factions in all zones.
I know that not everyone agrees, but it seems so genre appropriate (both for heroes and villains to fight each other) and because there were already enemies on every street corner, so the idea that enemies shouldn't be able to roam around freely never struck any truth with me.

And, for the record, I am someone that really never PVPs.
I think I took part in PvP, literally, three times in this game. And really only two of those times counted... and it was with a group of friends against each other.
I'm just not into PvP. I think, mostly, because, I like single defeats to be the end of a fight. Of course, I could never stand any of the games - Doom, Golden Eye, Unreal T, Halo and so on and so on... Just not my thing.

I also have a vision for what PvP could have been in this game, but I think people who expect/want the normal would probably find it absurd (hmm... I should make a thread about that too).


@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
-Dylan

 

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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter View Post
I have trouble understanding why PvP is popular in MMO's at all. After playing numerous ones, and seeing the same strategies used over and over in all of them, and analyzing how it all works, there seems to be no type of PvP game that is less based in skill (with a bunch of maxed out characters, it all boils down to the dice rolls, which is akin to gambling). But at the same time, there is also no type of game that has MORE ego problems and flame wars.
Best MMO PvP I ever encountered was in Fallen Earth. For one thing, Fallen Earth had one of my personal MMO Holy Grails: real reticule targeting. That alone would have made the PvP head and shoulders above any tab-to-target MMO's PvP. But the icing on the cake was a remarkably helpful and non-d-baggish PvP community. It's as if they knew it was a small community in a small game, and they really didn't need to be chasing anyone off by being jackwagons.

Loved that wonderful, immersive game just as much as a PvP'er as I did as an RP'er (RPvP...we exist!). Alas, the game's ongoing and almost never fixed technical problems eventually drove me out, but FE will always have a warm place in my heart...a game from a tiny little studio that did so very much right.


"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."

 

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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter View Post
I think this was discussed early on, and it was never implemented because it seemed too "un-hero-like" for them to be randomly bashing each others' brains in (even though based on today's movies, seems very normal). So, the arenas were done as an alternative.

All of this I thought was a detriment though. It took away the potential for a lot of fun player events that could've been held in public, where people could watch. Also, in most games that allow it, duels often get used for enhancing RP.



*zap* power suppression field.
Really? I found most RPers prefered text based fights, as PvP duels meant they would have to level and gear up, or use specific powersets/ATs, to be effective.


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