Why Do All the Other Superhero MMOs Have to Suck?
By
akaime,
Posted on: 2012-10-19 21:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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As someone who has played nearly every MMOG I've encountered with a controller, including CoH which has been one of the least complicated to adapt, I have to say that notion is nonsense.|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
No seriously I blame it on the limitations of the console controller. You have to limit powers and commands and menus and all that in a console controller.
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And then there's TERA, which has an extremely typical MMOG interface, was never intended for consoles, *and* works more properly with a controller than either of those two superhero games.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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By all means, go right ahead! |
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
"aspects of community, immersion and deeper layers to get lost in"
Mind if I use this for a future pitch? |
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I believe the reason City of Heroes attracts us players more than other superhero MMOs is that the CoH developers decided to appeal to the Bartle Explorer type.
Robert Bartle was a sociologist who categorized MMO players in four types: Achiever, Socializer, Killer, and Explorer. The Explorer is the rarest and the hardest to keep in a game, because they want to explore terrain, game mechanics, and storyline content. That's exactly what CoH gave us: Zones to explore (with badges to prove we were there!), complex game mechanics, and a deep, engrossing storyline.
The other MMOs are focused more on Achievers. (The Marvel MMO appears to be mostly for Killers.) They all feature acquisition of loot as a driving goal, simplified game mechanics, and second-rate story cribbed from known, static properties. There's a little bit for Explorers, but not much.
Explorers were the lifeblood of CoH. They were probably also its downfall, as the Korean market is dominated by Killer/Achiever types, and that is probably what NCSoft has decided to focus upon.
I'm optimistic that some developer will try again to make a MMO targeted to Explorers. It might not be superhero based, but it's a niche in the market that someone needs to fill.
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You ever try eating Filet Mignon then having a hamburger afterwards? Don't get me wrong, hamburgers are still good, but in comparison....
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Originally Posted by Shadowblaze
Sigh, it really sucks having no where to go. Champions online was boring. I played that for like 2 weeks and was bored outta my mind. DCUO was one of those 'get to top level and raid over and over and get leet gear' and I hate that kind of setup. And now I just looked at the thing Marvel is releasing and it looks godawful. Basically Marvel Alliance in MMO form. Why is CoH the only game to get it right? And why is it being shut down while the others stick around (well, minus the Marvel one, which hasn't come out yet)? I hope Matt can round up at least some of the Paragon City devs and kickstart another super hero MMO. Nothing else compares to what they have done. About a month left and I'm gonna have no where to go.
 Right now, I should be playing my Bio Armor/Dark Melee tank, not be in a state of mourning... |
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
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I didn't think of this, but I think you may be onto something here. I've always been primarily an Explorer (albeit with bits of Socializer and Achiever, but no Killer at all), and CoH is possibly my favorite game of all time (not just MMO, game).|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I believe the reason City of Heroes attracts us players more than other superhero MMOs is that the CoH developers decided to appeal to the Bartle Explorer type.
Robert Bartle was a sociologist who categorized MMO players in four types: Achiever, Socializer, Killer, and Explorer. The Explorer is the rarest and the hardest to keep in a game, because they want to explore terrain, game mechanics, and storyline content. That's exactly what CoH gave us: Zones to explore (with badges to prove we were there!), complex game mechanics, and a deep, engrossing storyline. The other MMOs are focused more on Achievers. (The Marvel MMO appears to be mostly for Killers.) They all feature acquisition of loot as a driving goal, simplified game mechanics, and second-rate story cribbed from known, static properties. There's a little bit for Explorers, but not much. Explorers were the lifeblood of CoH. They were probably also its downfall, as the Korean market is dominated by Killer/Achiever types, and that is probably what NCSoft has decided to focus upon. |
I liked seeing the storylines, and I really liked not having to worry about spending months optimizing my build just to beat one boss. And I really liked how quick and easy it was to level, so I could try out lots of different characters.
After two years, I still haven't seen all the content or seriously played all the archetypes (let alone all the archetype power combinations) like I intended, and I was looking forward to more things to see and more powers to do them with.
And, until the Announcement, the game was still under active development, keeping a few steps ahead of me, so I always had something new to do.
The only other game that's come close is one where the creators actively acknowledge all four types of players (though the players there call the types Hearts, Spades, Diamonds, and Clubs) and try to cater to all of them. It's still more Spades and Hearts than Clubs and Diamonds, though, and its development rate has seriously slowed down, so I wind up playing only for a week or so every few months.
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| I'm optimistic that some developer will try again to make a MMO targeted to Explorers. It might not be superhero based, but it's a niche in the market that someone needs to fill. |
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This! So completely and utterly. It's why I love CoX and have never actually liked superhero comics.
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Originally Posted by Hercules
I was watching an interview with one of the designers for Marvel's upcoming MMORPG.
He basically said "Why would you want to play as "Captain Firepants" when you can play as a "known" superhero, like Spiderman". He ... just ... doesnt ... get ... it. I'd much rather play as Captain Firepants - because he is MY creation. Because he is an extension of my personality and expression of my creativity. I dont want to be locked into someone elses superhero design and be just like everyone else. |
COH is the only game that allowed me to exercise my creativity. I could create a character and have that character look exactly the way I want him to. This is one of the reasons why I am staying away from the Marvel MMO. The popular heroes are gonna be spammed. How many Wolverines and Deadpools are going to be running around? Had they included a character creator I would have considered it. As of right now I will probably go to DCUO. I played it before and I enjoyed it. They are about to introduce player lairs but instead of team bases they will be solo bases which I like and wish COH put in the game.
"I believe there's a hero in all of us, that keeps us honest, gives us strength, makes us noble, and finally allows us to die with pride, even though sometimes we have to be steady, and give up the thing we want the most. Even our dreams." Aunt May SM2
i dreamed a dream, but now that dream is gone...good bye Paragon
For many the main issue is that they have been playing CoH for so long time that anything that goes far from it will feel ackward.
CO is a faster paced version of CoH combat with short or none cooldowns and light control powers. DCUO is even faster allowing weapon combos moves.
Another aspect is that CoH, except for incarnitate content, is pretty easy especially on IOs. CO tends to be a bit more challenging and DCUO goes even further.
CO customization is on par or superior to CoH, especially at core characteristic levels. For instance, I have seen people complaining that CO has only one face which is pretty much shows that they didn't even try the face sliders which gives thousand options. Would it be great having more premade faces? sure, but it is not related to the potentiality of the character creator. There are features in CoH that CO does not have, but the main disadvantage is in the number of costume pieces which is basically a matter of time.
DCUO has definitely less customization options than CoH or CO, but fitting into the DC Universe I would say that they are still decent and the endgame armor models are spectacular.
I had a blast in CoH while I was playing it. I am having a blast in CO and I also play DCUO from time to time and I enjoy it. When Marvel Heroes releases I am planning to try it and enjoying playing one of the marvel characters( I hope ironman or cyclops will be among the free ones).
It would be great that CoH wouldn't have to close or that CoH2 would be developed/released soon. However, that should not prevent you from enjoying other games by keeping an open mind since none of them has be a CoH clone.
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Originally Posted by Shadowblaze
DCUO was one of those 'get to top level and raid over and over and get leet gear' and I hate that kind of setup.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Sounds pretty much like the Incarnate setup to me.
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
that was my first thought when I read that too. lol.
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Originally Posted by Spork_NA
Yep.
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Sliders can only do so much to vary the singular face especially when you can't change angles. Every face will be simple deformations of that one face and thus will all look similar.|
Originally Posted by akaime
CO customization is on par or superior to CoH, especially at core characteristic levels. For instance, I have seen people complaining that CO has only one face which is pretty much shows that they didn't even try the face sliders which gives thousand options. Would it be great having more premade faces? sure, but it is not related to the potentiality of the character creator. There are features in CoH that CO does not have, but the main disadvantage is in the number of costume pieces which is basically a matter of time.
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My guess is that they just assumed everyone would always be wearing a mask or helmet and thus they didn't need to have different faces. The very limited costume selection before you get your first 10 would've turned me off if I was just casually sampling the game. (Why oh why did they only include the ugly hair options for males?)
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That's being mighty generous. I couldn't stand how utterly stunted making heroes/villains is. I entered what input I could, waited for the next screen and thought "Wait, what?" when I was told I'd be entering with what I had there.|
Originally Posted by Shadowblaze
DCUO was one of those 'get to top level and raid over and over and get leet gear' and I hate that kind of setup.
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I realize you pick up parts along the way, but that's NOT the reason I picked the game up in the first place.
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In general this game was never as grindy as most other MMOGs (though still a bit too grindy for me), and as long as one wasn't going for Tier 4s or enough Astrals/Empyreans to purchase ridiculously overpriced aesthetic items I'd agree that the "end game raids" weren't extremely grindy. But I found them to be dull and/or frustrating almost immediately.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
There's no denying that the Incarnate system was CoH's version of "end game raids that never end". But unlike most games it actually didn't seem to be as grindy or boring as other end-game activites tend to be. Let's just say I never got totally bored with it. *shrugs*
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Because they figured that everyone playing the game was a guy who would be playing a female character?|
Originally Posted by Ogi
(Why oh why did they only include the ugly hair options for males?)
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And, to answer the Thread's original question: Why do all the other Superhero MMOs have to suck?
Because they're not under the awesome care of the design team that is Paragon Studios.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Whilst I agree that on some levels the CO character to creator is superior to COHs, for me that isn't COs biggest problem. The problem comes when the game engine makes that character move. The animations are TERRIBLE. Running seems to be missing a few frames (especially on the heavy and beast models). If you're flying and firing from your hands, your upper and lower torso appear to belong to different people. (the top half moves and twists with your hand thrusts, but your legs and waist stay perfectly rigid)|
Originally Posted by akaime
For many the main issue is that they have been playing CoH for so long time that anything that goes far from it will feel ackward.
CO is a faster paced version of CoH combat with short or none cooldowns and light control powers. DCUO is even faster allowing weapon combos moves. Another aspect is that CoH, except for incarnitate content, is pretty easy especially on IOs. CO tends to be a bit more challenging and DCUO goes even further. CO customization is on par or superior to CoH, especially at core characteristic levels. For instance, I have seen people complaining that CO has only one face which is pretty much shows that they didn't even try the face sliders which gives thousand options. Would it be great having more premade faces? sure, but it is not related to the potentiality of the character creator. There are features in CoH that CO does not have, but the main disadvantage is in the number of costume pieces which is basically a matter of time. DCUO has definitely less customization options than CoH or CO, but fitting into the DC Universe I would say that they are still decent and the endgame armor models are spectacular. I had a blast in CoH while I was playing it. I am having a blast in CO and I also play DCUO from time to time and I enjoy it. When Marvel Heroes releases I am planning to try it and enjoying playing one of the marvel characters( I hope ironman or cyclops will be among the free ones). It would be great that CoH wouldn't have to close or that CoH2 would be developed/released soon. However, that should not prevent you from enjoying other games by keeping an open mind since none of them has be a CoH clone. |
The other problem is the difficulty. In CoH, the difficulty of the mobs as you progress is fairly flat, which generally means you have to increase their relative levels or numbers to present yourself with more of a challenge. As there is that visible increase in difficulty or numbers, you have a visual and quantitative representation of your increase in strength, which is much more rewarding from a player perspective.
In CO, irrespective of level you always get that "Rule of 4" which provides more or less the same level of challenge right from 1 - 40. That makes the game feel a little repetitive and dull (or it did to me).
The other turn off from my point of view with CO is the general setting. It all feels so tacky. It's almost like it's poking fun at itself with much of the content. Don't get me wrong, I do love little humourous touches and pop culture references in a game, but if you're not careful, you end up coming across like you're trying too hard. (Just get rid of Foxbat OK CO devs?)
CoH's atmosphere and general feel is spot on. It feels like a real place, with real people. You might say that CoH is a Paragon. CO is a Parody.
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No way, the Foxbat missions are some of my favourites.
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Originally Posted by SteelRat
(Just get rid of Foxbat OK CO devs?)
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Fair enough. I have not noticed the animation issues, but I might not have looked carefully enough. I kind of like most of the travel power animations, the beast running is pretty good, but the transition between it and normal stance is not as smooth as it should be. |
Originally Posted by SteelRat
Whilst I agree that on some levels the CO character to creator is superior to COHs, for me that isn't COs biggest problem. The problem comes when the game engine makes that character move. The animations are TERRIBLE. Running seems to be missing a few frames (especially on the heavy and beast models). If you're flying and firing from your hands, your upper and lower torso appear to belong to different people. (the top half moves and twists with your hand thrusts, but your legs and waist stay perfectly rigid)
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Originally Posted by SteelRat
The other problem is the difficulty. In CoH, the difficulty of the mobs as you progress is fairly flat, which generally means you have to increase their relative levels or numbers to present yourself with more of a challenge. As there is that visible increase in difficulty or numbers, you have a visual and quantitative representation of your increase in strength, which is much more rewarding from a player perspective.
In CO, irrespective of level you always get that "Rule of 4" which provides more or less the same level of challenge right from 1 - 40. That makes the game feel a little repetitive and dull (or it did to me). |
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Originally Posted by SteelRat
The other turn off from my point of view with CO is the general setting. It all feels so tacky. It's almost like it's poking fun at itself with much of the content. Don't get me wrong, I do love little humourous touches and pop culture references in a game, but if you're not careful, you end up coming across like you're trying too hard. (Just get rid of Foxbat OK CO devs?)
CoH's atmosphere and general feel is spot on. It feels like a real place, with real people. You might say that CoH is a Paragon. CO is a Parody. |
If you check Vibora Bay, the atmosphere is definitely darker and more serious despite still having some cult references.
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Fair enough.. fairly subjective thing I suppose. I don't feel that CO's engine, despite being more detailed than COHs is necessarily a suitably evolutionary step forward.|
Originally Posted by akaime
Fair enough. I have not noticed the animation issues, but I might not have looked carefully enough. I kind of like most of the travel power animations, the beast running is pretty good, but the transition between it and normal stance is not as smooth as it should be.
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Maybe in Millenium city in some neighborhoods might look not so epic, but keep in mind that most Millenium city plots are related to gangs and not so epic things. If you check Vibora Bay, the atmosphere is definitely darker and more serious despite still having some cult references. |
Believe it or not, Vibora Bay was one of my least favourite zones. I did like the geography of it, and I agree that it has a much more sinister feel, but constantly battling vamps and werewolves just got really really samey.
Being completely honest with you, I can understand why there's the feeling that any superhero game that isn't CoH is not going to measure up because of our own pre-conceptions, but for me it's something more than that and something that I'm not entirely sure I can put my finger on.
I played it for 3 or 4 months when it first came out and got a couple of characters in to the high 30s, but every time I've played it since then despite really wanting to like it, I just get bored, or those little irritations sour the whole experience and I uninstall it.
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"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
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But, you know, I don't think that applies to MMO's anymore. No longer to MMOs get better with age. With everyone and their mom pumping out MMOs every year to try and get a slice of the pie, not a single new MMO has any...staying power. No publisher is going to accept the "but it will get better eventually" business model. They want money, and they want it quickly. And if an MMO doesn't provide what they think it should it gets the F2P stamp, then it gets skeleton crews as the good devs are moved to another MMO.
And with that, I don't think Champions Online is going to get any "better". Sure, new costumes might be released once a year. They might get some new shiny (but buggy) missions, or new powers. But the game itself is never going to evolve or improve the way older games like CoH or WoW did.