City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

This might instill some perspective ...

American_Knight

By American_Knight,
Posted on: 2012-09-10 22:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
There's been a lot of discussion that this is not about just being in the being red vs. black. It makes sense that they think that the resources spent on the game could earn them more money used some other way. People have been talking about that likelihood since early last week, and I do think it probably makes (ruthless) sense.
I think its less having more money to spend and more making sure not to spend anything. I think it was Father Xmas who pointed out earlier how pie in the sky NCSoft's projections for 2011 and 2012 were. They had big expectations, big enough to throw plenty of development cash at Arenanet, Carbine, and Paragon. And then expectations met reality. The bean counters took a look at how badly the Western MMO market has been doing over the past year, how badly NCSoft's Western numbers looked, how GW2's sales numbers compared to what they had been selling investors on, and then finally noted that between their two ongoing future projects neither Carbine nor perhaps even Paragon were going to be returning profits any time soon. Throw in the quickly growing revenues out of NCSoft's social media games, and, well, here we are.

Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

 

Posted

It also may be a control issue. Paragon reported to NC Interactive which reported to NCSoft. ArenaNet reports to NCSoft as a subsidiary while NCSoft has direct oversight of Carbine.

We were the red headed stepchild. We were developed outside of NCSoft with them providing startup money. Every other studio they partnered here with failed miserably with Tabula Rasa being NCSoft's Ishtar. They bought ArenaNet while the first GW was in development, I assume because they wanted a western developer to help them expand here and they now have a second game which looks to be selling well. Carbine is supervised directly by NCSoft. I think its art style and gameplay were heavily influenced by NCSoft so it could do well in NCSoft's primary markets. We on the other hand didn't get out of beta in Korea.

It's a case where they don't get us. How do you grow a brand you don't get? And since they don't get it, they assume nobody else does so their reaction is to shut it down without first looking into selling it off. All we can do is to make this property look attractive to a possible suitor. But it doesn't do anyone any good by over inflating the success of this game, we were always just a small but unique fish in a big pond.

Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
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Posted

Question, if these explain why a corporation is closing it, are there any kind of investor or corporation that may WANT the game?

Personally, I think this should be a platform for a steam workshop service.

A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
proof there are far too many bean counters and lawyers in the world.
Proof that large corporations stifle creativity or diversity. I believe EA's CEO when he swears his company is not evil. To call it that means they're making a conscious, moral choice. Companies that big can not operate any other way. Any that have tried have likely floundered and failed (and then gotten gobbled up by other big companies).

More to the point is that entire concept of large corporations is what is evil. Someone thought that up and someone else thought it was a good idea. With enough money and power, it became a reality. This is just yet another example of the kind of life that's made for us. It doesn't matter if only you like something. Everyone else must also like it, or else it is very likely to disappear.

I make it sound like we live in some bleak dystopia, don't I? Haha. Thank the gods for indie and freeware games. When the entire game industry collapses (again), they'll quite likely remain alive and well. I guess it is about time for another shake-up.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
We were the red headed stepchild. We were developed outside of NCSoft with them providing startup money. Every other studio they partnered here with failed miserably with Tabula Rasa being NCSoft's Ishtar.

[...]

It's a case where they don't get us. How do you grow a brand you don't get?
From what Richard Garriott said in an interview with Eurogamer around Christmas last year, this situation happened in reverse during Tabula Rasa's development.

At first, Destination Games wanted to make a game that would appeal to the Korean and greater Asian market. So for the first two years, they worked on an iteration of Tabula Rasa that looked like this and played like this. However, the feedback they were getting from Korean playtesters indicated it wasn't working; the Asian-inspired design of the first Tabula Rasa came off as foreigners trying to imitate Asian culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Garriott
The way it was phrased to us was, "Look, imagine we were going to do a European castle: instead of making the stone walls nice and straight, we'd make them sort of like an inflatable castle, slightly curved, like a marshmallow castle. We might not notice that it doesn't look like a good castle, but you would immediately notice that it was cartoony versus strong and powerful."
So this first version of Tabula Rasa was scrapped, and they decided to go with a design that was better suited to the studio employees' strengths. That's how we got the Tabula Rasa we have now--er, had.

Now, me, personally ... I would have pushed for both versions of TR to have been published. Maybe the first version could have been a distant prequel reworked into the storyline of the second game, like select humans from the 1800s taken by the Eloh to help fight the Bane on distant planets or something. Who knows, Tabula Rasa v1 could have brought in enough money to offset the delay and costs incurred developing Tabula Rasa v2. Now that I know more about this "all-or-nothing" strategy employed by the big companies, though, I don't think NCSoft would have ever considered it ...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaso View Post
yes Obama killed COH...I am suprised this is not on fox news.
Dude, don't give people ideas.

CatMan - some form on every server

Always here, there, and there again.

 

Posted

I'm voting for the guy but I'll run that story if it gets us on Fox.

 

Posted

TBH it looked like they took that first version, Tweaked it a little and turned it into Aion.

On Justice
Global @Desi Nova Twitter: @desi_nova Steam: Desi_nova. I don't do Xbox or PS3

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post


EDIT: When I was in business school, we were taught something that has always bothered me, but it is true. A public company's managers are not necessarily interested in profits. They are interested in maximizing shareholder value through stock price. Think about that line. The goal isn't to be a strong successful company. The goal is to get people to pay the maximum amount for a share of your company's stock.

Normally, that's through making a profit. But that's only part of the equation, and not necessarily the most important part. Dropping small, low ROE (return on equity) business lines is often rewarded by the markets. It leads to short-term thinking that is a plague on businesses. But it's not going away.

I don't know what happened to our beloved CoH, but I suspect that's part of it.
The corporate philosophy of short-term profiteering vs long-term sustainability is also a large part of the reason we are in the middle of a global economic crisis. It's sickening.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
Still don't know what caused the revenue downturn between Q2 2009 and Q4 2009 when it dropped from a reliable $5 million or more a quarter before to $3 million after.
I know why....I went and got married. Dammit, it's all that woman's fault! All her nagging, keeping me from this game, my absences and random disappearances during games must have driven off half of the playerbase.

Topher Wade lvl 50 Claws/Regen
The Crimson Heroes Society SG
Chaos Faction VG

Official Naturalized Citizen of Justice since 2007

 

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Not sure if this is a contributing factor to the lower subscription numbers.. but Superhero genre (tight costumes, capes, vigilantism and etc..) seems to be a very AMERICAN thing.
Most people are I know who play COX, DCUO and Champions Online are either Americans or people exposed to Marvel/DC movies & cartoons back in the 80s - 90s and taken a liking to the genre enough to want to make their own version of Superheroes.

As compared to WoW or any fantasy themed MMOs out there. People all over the world seem to be more exposed or can readily accept the fantasy genre despite how saturated and tired the fantasy mmo market is.

I will miss you City of Heroes..

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelynn View Post
Not sure if this is a contributing factor to the lower subscription numbers.. but Superhero genre (tight costumes, capes, vigilantism and etc..) seems to be a very AMERICAN thing.
Most people are I know who play COX, DCUO and Champions Online are either Americans or people exposed to Marvel/DC movies & cartoons back in the 80s - 90s and taken a liking to the genre enough to want to make their own version of Superheroes.

As compared to WoW or any fantasy themed MMOs out there. People all over the world seem to be more exposed or can readily accept the fantasy genre despite how saturated and tired the fantasy mmo market is.
I can understand this....the whole Superman/Batman thing has been around in the US for a loong time, from the TV shows to the movies. This is most specific to the non-comic book people, since there are a lot of Americans who are into the whole superhero thing but have never picked up a comic.

Topher Wade lvl 50 Claws/Regen
The Crimson Heroes Society SG
Chaos Faction VG

Official Naturalized Citizen of Justice since 2007

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelynn View Post
As compared to WoW or any fantasy themed MMOs out there. People all over the world seem to be more exposed or can readily accept the fantasy genre despite how saturated and tired the fantasy mmo market is.
Yeah, I've noticed that. It seems odd to me, not that comic superheroes would be a more American notion, but that the rest of the world would be quite so accepting of games that are, at their core, usually based on medieval European fantasy settings. Maybe it's that somehow fantasy MMOs got in the door first and somehow insinuated themselves in the modern consciousness even of non-European places? I'm not sure that really makes sense, though.

Modern CoH is pretty open to what I think of as decent fits for stereotypes of "super powers" we often see in manga and manga-inspired animated shows. Of course, any cross-cultural appeal that gave us is still probably tied back by the way the the main NPC characters, setting and core fiction are all fairly firmly rooted in American culture. I mean, let's face it, Statesman was practically wearing an American flag. (This is not a complaint, simply an observation.)

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
It's sad, because it seems that MMO gamers have become conditioned to only want rewards coming at them constantly. I love my loot too, but without a story, it's not satisfying to have the rewards.
Yeah, when I want pew pew pew... I play a FPS which do a heck of a lot better.

One of the things I really liked about CoH/V was how easy it was to play and enjoy the story lines in the game. Certainly there was fighting - heck, story line and fighting - who can't resist, but there was no loot. I didn't have to run over to a body and loot it.

Enhancements and inspirations dropped directly onto your character.

It was great, it smoothed the game-play out, and it was just one of many reasons I threw my years of misgivings over MMORPGs and monthly subscriptions to the wind.

I felt super.
There was a story being told and I was involved in it.
I didn't have to walk or run to get from point a to point b.

GW2 copied a lot of useful things from CoH. It failed where item drops comes into play.

CatMan - some form on every server

Always here, there, and there again.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Desi_Nova View Post
TBH it looked like they took that first version, Tweaked it a little and turned it into Aion.
...

I have never thought about it that way before.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Yeah, I've noticed that. It seems odd to me, not that comic superheroes would be a more American notion, but that the rest of the world would be quite so accepting of games that are, at their core, usually based on medieval European fantasy settings. Maybe it's that somehow fantasy MMOs got in the door first and somehow insinuated themselves in the modern consciousness even of non-European places? I'm not sure that really makes sense, though.

Modern CoH is pretty open to what I think of as decent fits for stereotypes of "super powers" we often see in manga and manga-inspired animated shows. Of course, any cross-cultural appeal that gave us is still probably tied back by the way the the main NPC characters, setting and core fiction are all fairly firmly rooted in American culture. I mean, let's face it, Statesman was practically wearing an American flag. (This is not a complaint, simply an observation.)
I'm guessing that fantasy is more widely accepted because various cultures around the world all have their legends & myths of beings with mystical powers and fantastic creatures. Dragons, monstrous creature and god like beings pervade Oriental mythology which might be why the fantasy genre is much more easily accepted. Early Dungeon & Dragon RPGs may have helped in that regard as well.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if I have ever read a superhero comic book that didn't originate from North America, but then again I mostly read only comics by Marvel and a little bit of DC/Image.

I will miss you City of Heroes..

 

Posted

Japan, at least, has their own flavor of superheroes in the form of sentai squads and the like. In fact, I think City of Heroes used to have a sizable population of Japanese players. I've seen Japanese fan sites for CoH before, like this one:

geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley-SanJose/4850/coh/index.html

I wonder how much NCSoft tried marketing City of Heroes in Japan, anyway?

EDIT: Also came across this, with the Wayback Machine. Justice Japan, which looks like it was mostly active around 2004~2005. A few sites on that Geocities.jp link list involve Justice ... I wonder if it was their unofficial server. Reminds me of the "Ally of Justice" phrase I see pop up every now and then in regards to do-gooders in Japanese stuff.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelynn View Post
Come to think of it, I'm not sure if I have ever read a superhero comic book that didn't originate from North America, but then again I mostly read only comics by Marvel and a little bit of DC/Image.
Freak's Squeele is a French comic specifically about a superhero school. And then there's lots of superpowered manga characters, maybe not quite the same style as western heroes, but very similar. Oh, and Ratman, for a recent very specific superhero one. There was also a really good anime about superheroes last year called Tiger and Bunny.

I think Japan would probably be good for an expansion, though it is a smallish market.

Still, superhero stuff is allll over their entertainment.

Culex's resistance guide

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitho View Post
I think Japan would probably be good for an expansion, though it is a smallish market.

Still, superhero stuff is allll over their entertainment.
Yeah, I mean, last year there was Tiger & Bunny, an anime series about superheroes.

If you think about it, NCSoft could have taken advantage of that anime coming out to market City of Heroes in Japan. Characters in the anime series actually had corporate sponorships, like Sky High and his sponsorship with UStream.

Just imagine if one of those characters had a Paragon Studios sponsorship logo on their uniform, or NCSoft's.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelynn View Post
Come to think of it, I'm not sure if I have ever read a superhero comic book that didn't originate from North America, but then again I mostly read only comics by Marvel and a little bit of DC/Image.
Super powered beings are almost universal. Superheroes in the American comic book sense are fairly, but not entirely, specific to American culture.

I do think that the closest things I have seen to superhero themes outside of American comics have been Japanese television shows. Often the characters in question were aliens of some sort, but if any of you remember the way cheesy 60s and 70s shows like Ultraman, Spectra Man, and Space Giants, these were people with extraordinary powers trying to protect the helpless and/or innocent, and often had secret identities. It was like an American golden age superhero crossed with a Godzilla movie.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA