I do too.
Well-reasoned and very observant.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
I think many companies - of all kinds - think they can treat their customers with impunity. Then it bites them on the @ss. Ask, oh..... Netflix for one.
I wonder if this sort of thing won't eventually make people rethink getting seriously involved in MMOs in general. You could lose all your work and emotional investment in a flash. That's ... not a happy thought for most people.
My suggestion is that these companies start behaving with a little more kindness. I cant be the only one carefully considering future involvement with an MMO over this.
I agree.
Cancel the kitchen scraps for widows and lepers, no more merciful beheadings and call off christmas!
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I think many companies - of all kinds - think they can treat their customers with impunity. Then it bites them on the @ss. Ask, oh..... Netflix for one.
I wonder if this sort of thing won't eventually make people rethink getting seriously involved in MMOs in general. You could lose all your work and emotional investment in a flash. That's ... not a happy thought for most people. My suggestion is that these companies start behaving with a little more kindness. I cant be the only one carefully considering future involvement with an MMO over this. |
Wholeheartedly agree with this, as well as the OP.
Talk about end-game?
Every MMO should have an end-game plan in place from its inception. As in, if/when the game comes to an end, we have budgeted for and planned how it will exist once further development has ceased.
I think the lesson for studios is thus:
"You can have an award winning title with proven staying power, a dedicated and stable community behind it and be turning a profit and that doesn't mean a thing. Corporate will still shut you down without notice on a whim."
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In the end, I really doubt they care.
The only vote that counts is that of the shareholders and shareholders only want one thing: Make more money now now now.
They dont care about players, they don't care about employees or the environment or even if people get killed or what so long as they make a profit. 
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Originally Posted by Gunbunny
In the end, I really doubt they care.
The only vote that counts is that of the shareholders and shareholders only want one thing: Make more money now now now. They dont care about players, they don't care about employees or the environment or even if people get killed or what so long as they make a profit. |
I hear you, but I can't see this as logical at all, tho. Because the players in this business, are the customers. Without the customers, they have squat. So they d*** well better care about the players.
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Pretty much this I'm afraid. The topic is today's news blurb in a couple of places on the internet specializing in a specific form of gaming. Enjoy the fifteen minutes of "fame". As to changing the thinking of an entire industry... meh doubt it.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Or it could just be wishful thinking
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One of the many enlightening things to me of yesterday's Coffee Talk was how the devs, to a person, seem to understand and accept the transient nature of the business. I was also struck by the incestuous (sorry, I searched for a better word but could not find it) way devs interact (i.e., we play their games, they play ours, we know them, they know us, they come here, we go there, etc. etc.).
I predict the true and everlasting impacts will not be on "the industry". Rather, it will be the effects City of Heroes has on your heart, on my heart, on the community, and on the people (past and present) who brought us this wonderful game. That is genuine and endearing.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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I would suggest they start caring, because who provides that "more money"? The customers do, that's who. |
Originally Posted by Gunbunny
In the end, I really doubt they care.
The only vote that counts is that of the shareholders and shareholders only want one thing: Make more money now now now. They dont care about players, they don't care about employees or the environment or even if people get killed or what so long as they make a profit. |
I don't care what: ticking off customers is a stupid thing to do, because they might well take those dollars elsewhere. Companies of all kinds act like they are made of cast iron and will be here for centuries. Not without customers, they won't. Just ask AOL.
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A lesson few businesses recall these days. Mostly because we've proven to them that we are good little consumers who will buy whatever they give us.
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Originally Posted by Knight_of_Armor
I hear you, but I can't see this as logical at all, tho. Because the players in this business, are the customers. Without the customers, they have squat. So they d*** well better care about the players.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Promiscuous? |
Originally Posted by Fire_Away
...incestuous (sorry, I searched for a better word but could not find it)
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More seriously? The Devs are well aware of how the industry works, particularly MMOs but gaming in general - very few developers are "safe" because of the sheer amount of control in the hands of the publishers. However, that doesn't mean that has to be the case here, so don't give up!
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"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
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Not necessarily. Yes, companies want to make money, but most have at least some regard as to HOW they do it. If NCsoft discovered that delivering pizzas brought in more money, they wouldn't sack their entire development staff and start trying to hire pizza chefs.|
Originally Posted by Gunbunny
In the end, I really doubt they care.
The only vote that counts is that of the shareholders and shareholders only want one thing: Make more money now now now. |
Corporations care about money, but they also realise that this money has to come from the public, hence why image matters. That's why boycots don't work where whining tends to. Boycotting a large corporation is almost pointless unless you have millions of people at your side - which we don't. However, you very much CAN hurt a corporation's image with bad press, and given the nature of the Internet, that CAN sting.
All of this doesn't necessarily apply to NCsoft, of course. At this point, they don't seem to give a toss about what the West thinks of them since they apparently don't want that market. By extension, I've never gotten the impression that Korean players give two rats about American titles, by and large, considering how American titles tend to bomb in Korea. So, yeah, NCsoft may not be as concerned with its image. I can't say.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I wonder if this sort of thing won't eventually make people rethink getting seriously involved in MMOs in general. You could lose all your work and emotional investment in a flash. That's ... not a happy thought for most people.
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It's when the end comes as a shock that people get pissed off the most, I think. And that kind of shock does little to endear the company responsible.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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What the hell did I miss in that coffee talk and can I please see that part?
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Originally Posted by Fire_Away
I was also struck by the incestuous way devs interact
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It has been incestuous for many years, with developers/coders/Community Managers going round in circles over the years.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Away
One of the many enlightening things to me of yesterday's Coffee Talk was how the devs, to a person, seem to understand and accept the transient nature of the business. I was also struck by the incestuous (sorry, I searched for a better word but could not find it) way devs interact (i.e., we play their games, they play ours, we know them, they know us, they come here, we go there, etc. etc.).
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Scott Jennings (Lum The Mad if you remember who he is) for example... he was a player originally of several different MMO's (ultima Online, Everquest, Asherons Call etc etc).
2001: Started working for Mythic Entertainment (database programmer) on Dark Age of Camelot.
2006: Jumped over to NCsoft a few years later (working on an unnamed MMO... complained about TR over the years etc etc).
2008: Got made redundant from NCsoft during refocusing of the company, then worked on another game.
2010: Went back to NCsoft as a contractor/full time employee (i believe to work on anti RMT stuff for them.
2012: Guess what, just been made redundant *again!*
He is just one person who springs to mind... Sanya Weathers (Community for *many* different games/companies over the years) is another example of how incestuous it can be... Bill Roper is another.
Yep, you tend to see a flow/migration of people between companies with very few actually breaking *into* the industry naturally. It is a clique to say the least.
Stephen "ROckjaw" Reid is another ex NCsoft person who has done the rounds with several companies over the years...He has quite a resume to be honest... although I wish him the best at Gazillion with Marvel Heroes.
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This is a very valid point.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I would suggest they start caring, because who provides that "more money"? The customers do, that's who.
I don't care what: ticking off customers is a stupid thing to do, because they might well take those dollars elsewhere. Companies of all kinds act like they are made of cast iron and will be here for centuries. Not without customers, they won't. Just ask AOL. |
In RL, part of my job is to counsel organizations about the technical legal and regulatory requirements for the services they provide. My colleagues and I usually take our counsel beyond the strict requirement, however - "Do you want to be that bad headline in the local paper? The one about how you are treating customers poorly or just generally being a jerk?"
On a local level, this is really important - reputational risk. It's less important for large multi-nationals, by a vast degree. But in today's increasing social media world, the headline on the front page of the newspaper shows up as nasty FaceBook or Twitter traffic, and "human interest" stories on CNN.com.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
Whatever happens, there's a lesson here for games companies.
It's a very valuable lesson to most of the industry it seems to me.
Just looking around the interwebs, it's clear that NCSoft have dropped a clanger with this and it's shocked the industry as a whole. But perhaps, to counter that, the whole industry is sitting up and taking notice and going "Whoa! Those fans have it together and are behaving in a concerted manner to try and save their game."
It's making heads pop up in the gaming community at what was an unforseen reaction. It might just make gaming companies think twice before making knee-jerk changes to their games.
It's probably too late for CoH. I suspect that CoH's time is done and soon it will be pixel-dust on the wind. But I also suspect that whatever the outcome, NCSoft is going to feel that wind for a long time to come and it will hurt the company more deeply in the long term than it can imagine because their ill-considered actions has been a stone that casts many ripples.
But the next time a business looks at closing it's game or emasculating it - this has been a precedent and they will look at the options more closely. Can the game be saved with more revenue? What can the fans do to save the game? Maybe if NCSoft had asked that before they closed the game - well we can but speculate.
Let's hope that however this pans out for us, it'll make the industry think twice about how they act. Even if it's just to take a moment to stop and ask the fans.
Or it could just be wishful thinking
Thelonious Monk