Hypothetical: Ranged tank or Armoured Blaster?


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Posted

Supposing a new AT was added pairing (existing) ranged Blast/Assault* sets and armour sets, would you prefer:

1) Near blaster level damage, weaker-than-scrapper defense and resistance values, low max hp?

2) Tanker level damage, between brute and tanker levels of def/res and max hp, taunt on attacks?

3) Switch inherent: Tanker level damage, scrapper level defences, inherent granting assault mode (+Dmg) and defense mode (+Max HP, adds taunt to attacks)?


*I'm thinking Assault sets are more likely than Blast sets, since they give less access to AoE and should alleviate some balance concerns. But it doesn't matter for the sake of the descussion.


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Posted

Two words.

Crab Spiders.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Supposing a new AT was added pairing (existing) ranged Blast/Assault* sets and armour sets, would you prefer:

1) Near blaster level damage, weaker-than-scrapper defense and resistance values, low max hp?

2) Tanker level damage, between brute and tanker levels of def/res and max hp, taunt on attacks?

3) Switch inherent: Tanker level damage, scrapper level defences, inherent granting assault mode (+Dmg) and defense mode (+Max HP, adds taunt to attacks)?


*I'm thinking Assault sets are more likely than Blast sets, since they give less access to AoE and should alleviate some balance concerns. But it doesn't matter for the sake of the descussion.
I'd pick number 2.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight View Post
Two words.

Crab Spiders.
Basically choice 1 but with a much more limited choice of powers available.


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Posted

None of the above. Between Corruptor and Blaster level damage and scrapper level defenses and health. And actual blast sets, not assault.


Crabs have more than that and they haven't destroyed the game yet.


 

Posted

I'd pick number two, but I primarily look for sturdiness in a character.

In any case, my chief concern would be that the AT had adequate mez protection. The lack of it is a large part of what has made my Peacebringer frustrating to play (endurance problems being the next largest issue).


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Grim View Post
None of the above. Between Corruptor and Blaster level damage and scrapper level defenses and health. And actual blast sets, not assault.


Crabs have more than that and they haven't destroyed the game yet.
1) How does "slightly less than Blaster" differ from "Between Corruptor and Blaster"?

2) Whilst Crabs get better values for def and res than scrappers, they don't have a compete defense set, making up for weaknesses with pool powers and IOs. And even with them, they can't get DDR, a god mode, damage aura, and the other things that come with full defense sets. And Serum doesn't make up for lower max HP, since equivalent powers are available in defence sets (e.g. Dull Pain).

3) Crabs lack the ST ranged attack chain that true blast sets get.



I'll put you down for option 1.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I'd pick number two, but I primarily look for sturdiness in a character.

In any case, my chief concern would be that the AT had adequate mez protection. The lack of it is a large part of what has made my Peacebringer frustrating to play (endurance problems being the next largest issue).
I'm assuming existing defense sets are ported, so mez protection would be similar to scrappers (slightly lower numbers for option 1, but shouldn't make much difference).

The idea is, it's a base AT, not an EAT.


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Posted

Nope. Because I said Scrapper level defenses, not below Scrapper level defenses. And about midway between corruptor and blaster is not the same thing as almost blaster.

Crabs are some of the easier things to soft cap while still have a ludicrous amount of health, resistance, and mez protection. The lack of a damage aura is more than made up for by the various pets and stronger attacks. DDR is a rarity even in full defense sets. Oh, and Crabs share much of their defense with the entire team in one of the best toggles in the game.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Grim View Post
Nope. Because I said Scrapper level defenses, not below Scrapper level defenses.
No DDR, no god mode, no KB protection, no damage aura, lower max HP = below scrapper level defenses.

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And about midway between corruptor and blaster is not the same thing as almost blaster.
It looks exactly the same to me.

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Crabs are some of the easier things to soft cap while still have a ludicrous amount of health, resistance, and mez protection. The lack of a damage aura is more than made up for by the various pets and stronger attacks. DDR is a rarity even in full defense sets. Oh, and Crabs share much of their defense with the entire team in one of the best toggles in the game.
Lower Rez and def values are just as easily soft capped when you start to figure in IOs and other factors which aren't included in game balance calculations.

Your pets and group buffs are very nice, but are irrelevant to the discussion.

But, for the point of data gathering, let me rephrase: Your options are: 1) similar to an arachnos soldier, 2) Better defensively but lower damage than an arachnos soldier (with aggro management tools), or 3) something which can switch between the two?

Oh, and which FULL defense set has no DDR?


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Posted

I didn't say to make its armor an exact copy of a Crab, did I? I said to make it equal to a Scrapper. I was using the Crab as proof that a tankmage wouldn't break the game.

Full defense set? SR is the only one with sizable amounts, if I recall correctly. And almost none of the resistance sets have it. Which are also armor sets, and therefore were included in my statement. As for no god mode, that also means no god mode crash. Can just use the inspirations that a dropping like candy.

I'd have to say 1, then. But with the exact same defense values as a Scrapper. And not too close to blaster damage, don't need more things encroaching on their territory.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Grim View Post
I didn't say to make its armor an exact copy of a Crab, did I? I said to make it equal to a Scrapper.
Equal to a scrapper armour, slightly lower than slightly lower than a blaster damage is not an option on the poll (unless you count option 3 in Assault Mode).

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I was using the Crab as proof that a tankmage wouldn't break the game.
Which is irrelevant. This is a hypothetical poll, it doesn't matter if any of these options would break the game or not.

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Full defense set? SR is the only one with sizable amounts, if I recall correctly.
You don't.

All full defense sets: SR, Ice Armour, EA & Ninjitsu have DDR (only Nin, as a stalker set, is a bit light).

Of the mixed sets, Shield has loads of DDR, Invun and Stone have fair DDR.

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And almost none of the resistance sets have it.
No. Why would they? But they have higher resist values than you can get on a crab (with SOs).

Which are also armor sets, and therefore were included in my statement. As for no god mode, that also means no god mode crash. Can just use the inspirations that a dropping like candy.

Quote:
don't need more things encroaching on their territory.
That's the reason for going with Assault sets rather than blast sets.


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Posted

I really want a support/melee or melee/support AT. A balance between blaster secondaries or dominator secondaries with the support sets.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedlogic77 View Post
I really want a support/melee or melee/support AT. A balance between blaster secondaries or dominator secondaries with the support sets.
I would be way more interested in this archetype than the archetype in the OP. I don't play at range even on my ranged characters, and I prefer support sets.


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Posted

Kheldians get;

-Godmodes
-Mixture of AoE and ST attacks
-+HP powers
-Recovery and Heal powers
-Basically all the stuff talked about

They already HAVE a base level for a Blast/Armour or Assault/Armour AT. There is NO good reason to not have one in game (no, screaming 'Tankmage!' doesn't cut it. Again, EATs. Balanced. Go figure.)


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Kheldians get;

-Godmodes
-Mixture of AoE and ST attacks
-+HP powers
-Recovery and Heal powers
-Basically all the stuff talked about

They already HAVE a base level for a Blast/Armour or Assault/Armour AT. There is NO good reason to not have one in game (no, screaming 'Tankmage!' doesn't cut it. Again, EATs. Balanced. Go figure.)
Their mez protection is decidedly dodgy, so they don't get everything that would go with a defense set. And with no damage or taunt aura, and 85% res cap, they don't match a tank or maxed-out brute for survivability or agro management either. Defense sets contain more than just defense powers.

But the question at hand is would you prefer a ranged tank or ranged DPS-with-armor AT, irrespective of balance.

"Similar to a keldian" would correspond to option 3.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedlogic77 View Post
I really want a support/melee or melee/support AT. A balance between blaster secondaries or dominator secondaries with the support sets.
My personal opinion is this would be toast without some additional defense thrown into the mix (such as inherent mez protection and brute level hp).

Also, you will be able to make it with the Fighting pool when issue 24 goes live.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Their mez protection is decidedly dodgy, so they don't get everything that would go with a defense set. And with no damage or taunt aura, and 85% res cap, they don't match a tank or maxed-out brute for survivability or agro management either. Defense sets contain more than just defense powers.

But the question at hand is would you prefer a ranged tank or ranged DPS-with-armor AT, irrespective of balance.

"Similar to a keldian" would correspond to option 3.
Dwarf mode mez protection is dodgy? News to me since in that mode my khelds never get mezzed.

My khelds when in their defensive modes have no issue matching a tank or maxed-out brute for survivability.

Aggro management no, as it's not their job.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
No DDR, no god mode, no KB protection, no damage aura, lower max HP = below scrapper level defenses.
Dark Armor = No DDR, No 'God Mode', No KB Protection. Pretty close there and it still kicks enormous butt.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
It looks exactly the same to me.
Corruptor ranged damage modifier: .750
Blaster ranged damage modifier: 1.125

1.125 + .750 = 1.875

1.875 / 2 = .9375

For lack of a better way to put this, "midway between Blaster and Corruptor" is almost "almost Blaster." I'd wager "almost Blaster" is 1.000 scale.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Dwarf mode mez protection is dodgy? News to me since in that mode my khelds never get mezzed.
No, in dwarf mode your damage sucks. You can have decent damage, or decent mez protection, but not both at the same time all the time.

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My khelds when in their defensive modes have no issue matching a tank or maxed-out brute for survivability.
Raw numbers say otherwise.

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Aggro management no, as it's not their job.
Aggro management is exactly the job of dwarf form. Didn't getting Taunt give you a clue? That they aren't very good at it is down to poor design.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
Dark Armor = No DDR, No 'God Mode', No KB Protection. Pretty close there and it still kicks enormous butt.
Damage auras. CC auras. Higher rez than a Crab.

Quote:
Corruptor ranged damage modifier: .750
Blaster ranged damage modifier: 1.125

1.125 + .750 = 1.875

1.875 / 2 = .9375

For lack of a better way to put this, "midway between Blaster and Corruptor" is almost "almost Blaster." I'd wager "almost Blaster" is 1.000 scale.
You gotta figure in scourge when comparing Corruptors and Blasters. Which makes picking a point between the two very difficult, since scourge varies in effectiveness depending on the target. 1.0 is the same as EATs, and is therefore reasonable, but I would probably go slightly lower and some sort of inherent that boosts damage in some way.

How about this:

Devastator:

Primary: Assault
Secondary: Defense

Range damage scale 0.9, Melee damage scale 1.0

Def/res scale as Scrapper (0.75), HP scale as stalker.

Inherent: Devastation: Attacking with primary builds Devastation Bar. When full, click button to give double damage for a time (basically the original version of Domination, without the bonus to CC).


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Damage auras. CC auras. Higher rez than a Crab.
Notice how I said 'pretty close'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
You gotta figure in scourge when comparing Corruptors and Blasters. Which makes picking a point between the two very difficult, since scourge varies in effectiveness depending on the target. 1.0 is the same as EATs, and is threfore reasonable, but I would probably go slightly lower and some sort of inherent that boosts damage in some way.
You CAN figure in Scourge, but I did not since Corrs are the only AT that get double damage at low target health. I also did not because damage modifiers have no bearing on Scourge's mechanics outside of damage done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
No, in dwarf mode your damage sucks. You can have decent damage, or decent mez protection, but not both at the same time all the time.
Only if you're not double-miring; if you're not doing that you're doing it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Raw numbers say otherwise.
Slotted your Dwarf Form for resistance lately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Aggro management is exactly the job of dwarf form. Didn't getting Taunt give you a clue? That they aren't very good at it is down to poor design.
Or a poor player. My Warshade can tank just fine. Can yours not?

By the way, you might want to check your tone in your replies. You're coming off as scathing.


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Posted

Using Assault/Defense is a pretty neat idea because it capitalizes on reusing existing assets, but ultimately, it falls flat because unless it has something groundbreaking in the inherent, it doesn't really do anything different from the other melee ATs available.

The issue is that the secondary -has- to change to make it interesting, but when you change it, you move away from the main advantage in creating such an AT, which is ease of conversion/creation.

There's a way around it, but that's a pretty long post that doesn't belong here, but the suggestion forum instead.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
Only if you're not double-miring; if you're not doing that you're doing it wrong.
Peacebringers can't double-mire. You said Keldians, not warshades specifically.

Quote:
Slotted your Dwarf Form for resistance lately?
You can slot it as much as you like, 85% is never going to be more than 90%.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haetron View Post
Using Assault/Defense is a pretty neat idea because it capitalizes on reusing existing assets, but ultimately, it falls flat because unless it has something groundbreaking in the inherent, it doesn't really do anything different from the other melee ATs available.
Some more ideas:

Retaliator

Role: tank

Primary: Defense
Secondary: Assault (but with BU or equivalent replaced with Taunt)

Ranged damage scale: 0.75, melee damage scale: 0.8

Def/Res scale: as tanker, HP scale: as Brute

Inherent: Retaliation. When attacked, retaliation bar fills. When full click button gives +100% damage buff and +25% to hit buff for a time. (yes, another reuse of Domination!)

Equaliser

Role: damage or tank

Primary: Assault
Secondary: Defense

Ranged Damage scale 0.8, Melee Damage scale 0.85

Res/Def/HP: As Brute

Inherent: Mode selection. Assault mode: gives a +DMG buff and a chance for attacks to critical (like a scrapper), and +recovery. Defense mode: Gives +100% max hp, and an AoE taunt proc on all attacks, and +regen. Mode switching has a 5 minute cooldown and is interuptable, butt cannot be detoggled.


I don't agree that anything REALLY new is needed. It's just giving people more options (and the chance to make an Iron Man clone).


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