Hypothetical: Ranged tank or Armoured Blaster?
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-08-07 23:35 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The tank role is still pretty much dominated by Brutes. Tankers obviously can do it, but there's no reason to use a tank when a brute is available. It's also a horrible role.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Some more ideas:
Retaliator Role: tank Primary: Defense Secondary: Assault (but with BU or equivalent replaced with Taunt) Ranged damage scale: 0.75, melee damage scale: 0.8 Def/Res scale: as tanker, HP scale: as Brute Inherent: Retaliation. When attacked, retaliation bar fills. When full click button gives huge damage buff for a time. (yes, another reuse of Domination!) |
And the DPS role is overfilling. The solution isn't damage.
In my opinion: Assault Primary, new Secondary called "Utility" which are hybrids of existing defense and buff/debuff sets.
IE: Cold domination + Ice Armor, Thermal + Fire Armor, Dark Miasma + Dark Armor.
Remove the T9s and the mez protection.
Add Resource bar like Brutes/Dominators, when filled, the AT can trigger one of two inherents, consuming the bar and depleting it to zero.
Inherent 1: +Dmg, +ToHit. Smaller numbers than build up, but longer duration. Set the recharge to double the duration, and immune to recharge increase.
Inherent 2: +Special, +HP. Smaller Numbers than Power Boost, but longer duration. Set the recharge to double the duration, and immune to recharge increase.
The fun/frustrating part comes with deciding which powers from the sets get used to make up the new 9. It also creates an open "Hybrid" AT, which isn't locked in by lore to certain effects. But restricting both sets down to 9 power options also helps it not step on the toes of existing Epic ATs.
I think it would be an interesting new gameplay style, but I also doubt it'd be seen as worth the investment.
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I take it you are one of those people who believe that endgame is the only game.
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Originally Posted by Haetron
The tank role is still pretty much dominated by Brutes. Tankers obviously can do it, but there's no reason to use a tank when a brute is available. It's also a horrible role.
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I really should do something about this signature.
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Nope.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I take it you are one of those people who believe that endgame is the only game.
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Speak for yourself; I absolutely love to tank, whether it's on a Mastermind, a Kheldian, a Brute or a Tanker. Tanking on Tankers is especially fun for me since I have less worry wading in to a full spawn than when I do so with a Brute. Nothing embodies tanking like jumping in to a group of 20+ enemies and going "Hey guys. I crapped in your coffee maker." and then watching them try to kill me.
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Originally Posted by Haetron
The tank role is still pretty much dominated by Brutes. Tankers obviously can do it, but there's no reason to use a tank when a brute is available. It's also a horrible role.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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^^This.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Speak for yourself; I absolutely love to tank, whether it's on a Mastermind, a Kheldian, a Brute or a Tanker. Tanking on Tankers is especially fun for me since I have less worry wading in to a full spawn than when I do so with a Brute. Nothing embodies tanking like jumping in to a group of 20+ enemies and going "Hey guys. I crapped in your coffee maker." and then watching them try to kill me.
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I really should do something about this signature.
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I do this with my Brute.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Speak for yourself; I absolutely love to tank, whether it's on a Mastermind, a Kheldian, a Brute or a Tanker. Tanking on Tankers is especially fun for me since I have less worry wading in to a full spawn than when I do so with a Brute. Nothing embodies tanking like jumping in to a group of 20+ enemies and going "Hey guys. I crapped in your coffee maker." and then watching them try to kill me.
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This mythical land where Tankers just lay waste to Brutes in the survivability department doesn't exist, if you're building the characters equally. Because what the brute gives up in resistance, he makes up for killing things faster, and dead is the best debuff in the game.
I am currently experimenting with a Dark/Invul/Soul Brute in the Incarnate Trials. Gloom/Soul Tentacles/Dark Obliteration give a solid Blaster type attack chain. He is softcapped to S/L and mid 30s Energy Defense. I have the build set up for very high recharge, with Global Rech bonuses, Hasten perma, and Spirtual Alpha. The massive recharge allows this to be an effective "Tank/Mage" Buyer Beware: One of the reasons I go for high recharge is the Tremendous Endurance hole the build is constantly digging itself. Hitting Dark Consumption once a minute is about the only solution I have found. In my own building term the build runs "Really Hot" meaning it has horrid endurance issues. The build is very tanky, as we all know Invul armor can be when a little defense is slapped atop it. I find the secret to the build is when facing one opponent I can back the End issues off by relying on ST attacks and when pressed to be aTank I have Dull Pain, which can be stacked/perma with this layer of recharge. Propping that up with Siphon Life makes for a character that can be very Tanky. So, depending on the need I can go Blaster and constantly work to fix the End prob, or hunker down and go really tanky. This without ever clicking a kheldian form change button, but just in changing tactics.
I have previously run (and warehoused now) a SS/Fire/Mu Brute. This is a great "Ghetto Blaster" but is on the squishy end of Brutes. On the bright side dying is just another weapon in the arsenal of a fire armor brute.
Put me down for none of the above in the OP.
Pretty much this:
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In a perfect world and a time machine to use frivolously, I'd go back and talk to the devs about melee AT introduction more like this:|
Originally Posted by Haetron
In my opinion: Assault Primary, new Secondary called "Utility" which are hybrids of existing defense and buff/debuff sets.
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I'd probably leave scrappers and stalkers alone
rename tank to Brute (tanker taunt, damage scale, & armor/resist scale, drop gauntlet, provide them fury - building up from the lower starting point should work nicely)
introduce brute as... Ruffian (arbitrarily and spontaneously named). It would be a Melee/ with a secondary powerset a mix of some armors and debuffs (with damage and armor/resist scales as brute today)
Then, yeah, there should be room for an armor/ranged set, with something near scrapper def abilities and probably someplace around corrs in damage.
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Indeed, one of the reasons I tend to go for Tankers instead of Brutes is that I often find myself getting hit with that "dead" debuff as a Brute before I can adequately build up Fury and leverage the same debuff against the enemies.|
Originally Posted by Haetron
This mythical land where Tankers just lay waste to Brutes in the survivability department doesn't exist, if you're building the characters equally. Because what the brute gives up in resistance, he makes up for killing things faster, and dead is the best debuff in the game.
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Heck, I tend to find Tankers to be merely adequate to what I expect in regards to superheroic sturdiness...
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
While the difference between Brute and Tanker survivability on paper is debatable, what isn't debatable (well it is, everything is, but not intelligently) is that in practice, an equally skilled tank and brute will be doing different things. A Tanker's primary goal will be tanking. A Brute's primary goal will be melee DPS. Therefore, a Tank is a better tank than a Brute.
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It's definitely a slippery slope. But the core of this argument is very sound. Personally I find the need for a true dedicated "Tank" unnecessary. But I played almost exclusively Brutes Redside for many years before GR. Therefore I see any "waste of build" for Tanking as "money left on the table" that could be spent on DPS.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
While the difference between Brute and Tanker survivability on paper is debatable, what isn't debatable (well it is, everything is, but not intelligently) is that in practice, an equally skilled tank and brute will be doing different things. A Tanker's primary goal will be tanking. A Brute's primary goal will be melee DPS. Therefore, a Tank is a better tank than a Brute.
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Higher damage. Give me a decent damage blast set with mez protection, and any other defensive powers are just gravy.
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Can't you kinda do this already with Corruptors and Defenders? I mean both have access to powers that provide some mez protection (sonic and force field) add to that the leadership pool and some -KB IO's and you've basically got mez protection against everything except sleep.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Higher damage. Give me a decent damage blast set with mez protection, and any other defensive powers are just gravy.
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Dominators with perma dom also have mez protection and blasts.
I mean I know defenders aren't awe inspiring damage dealers but I'd say Corruptors and Dominators are no slouches in the ranged damage dealing department.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Killing stuff is not at all the same thing as sitting down in the middle of the mobs drinking tea whilst their attacks bounce off.
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Originally Posted by Haetron
I do this with my Brute.
This mythical land where Tankers just lay waste to Brutes in the survivability department doesn't exist, if you're building the characters equally. Because what the brute gives up in resistance, he makes up for killing things faster, and dead is the best debuff in the game. |
I really should do something about this signature.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."