Adjusting Super Strength.

I know this will be an unpopular suggestion, but I'm going to post it in the hopes of getting some feedback from reasonable people.

I propose the following:

1) Increase the base damage of Super Strength across the board.

and

2) Reduce the buff from Rage to be more in line with other sustainable damage boost powers (such as Follow Up).

3) When reducing the buff from Rage, also remove the crash entirely. And also possibly reduce the base recharge to make it easier to double-stack without needing huge amounts of recharge from set bonuses.

It has long been known that the ability to double-stack Rage is somewhat overpowered when it is applied to powers that are not balanced to take Rage into account like Super Strength powers are. My proposal would eliminate some of that overpoweredness while not gimping Super Strength itself.

Such a change would be necessary if we ever want to see Super Strength ported to Scrappers. If Scrapper Rage followed the same pattern as Build Up when ported between ATs, it would end up being a stackable 100% damage boost. I can understand the devs' reluctance to give Scrappers something that powerful when their damage scalar is already so high.

No.

I'll accept any change that removes the damage crash but still keeps it in some way better/different then build up.


Devs wont touch the tank/brute version tho. Which is pretty lame. Kinda like how ice tanks arent going to ever get icy bastion and hibernate.

What I was thinking, numbers wise, was whatever is reduced from Rage should be added to the base damage.

So, if Rage were reduced from 80% to, say, 50%, you would then add 30% to the base damage of the SS attacks. That may be too strong at the high end, but at least the majority of what is removed from Rage should be added to the base.

What I was thinking in terms of recharge tweaking was to make the duration and recharge of the power the same. So, using just SOs a player could have double-stacked Rage 50% of the time or so. This would be in line with the uptime of Follow Up and Blinding Feint using just SO slotting. (Both have a base recharge of 12 seconds and a duration of 10 seconds)

The end result of this would be to:

A) Make SS less painful to play in the levels before you get Rage. That is basically half the game for a Tanker.

B) Make it easier for those players who choose not to use IOs (or don't have the option) to do decent amounts of damage with SS on only SOs.

C) It would reduce how overpowered attacks not in SS are when the Rage buff is applied to them.

Would probably be easier to just replace rage with buildup when porting the set to scrappers.

This concept looks strangely familiar...

I would like to say I don't think Rage breaks the game and I am not pushing for a change. The designer in me agrees with this proposal, however, for a few reasons.

Every time the devs add an attack to a power pool or epic pool or even a secondary they risk making SS even more powerful. Since the normal SS attacks are so pathetic to make up for Rage, these addition attacks can easily out pace them. Boxing is already on par with Jab for example. With the updated power pools the Boxing attacks might replace a couple of the SS attacks.

Personally I hate the Rage crash even though I know the set is over performing. I think a Super Strength that got slightly less effect from stacked rage, particularly on attacks outside the primary, but didn't crash at all would be slightly more fun for me.

IF Rage gets changed. The first thing to go out the door will be the ability to double stack it.

So... carefully what you wish for.

Eh.

Rage, crash and all, is one of the defining items of Super Strength. Get rid of it, and - well, why not just take Street Justice instead? Or Martial Arts? It turns it into more "just punch stuff."

I play a fair amount of SS, but I don't think anyone would refer to me as a min/maxer (or even really caring about the numbers.) And yet I think this would just make the set more... bland for me.

Yes, I actually *like* the rage crash. It's kind of a mini-game for me when I've got a pile of enemies burying me and I see that icon start flashing. No crash? It's like build up. Boring. With it? It's "Can I finish these before I'm down to doing 1 pt of damage or not?"

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I was just thinking about this tonight, and was about to make a new thread before I saw this one. But how about this:

Rage becomes a power that cannot be recharge enhanced, with a set recharge that stops it from being stackable, allows for a 10 second crash time, gets rid of the terrible defence crash, and slowly brings back damage and to-hit from low (maybe starting at 20% damage) back to normal within the crash period (in stages, using the incarnate tech), with the existing endurance crash.

Maybe the first 2 seconds you can only do 20% of your regular damage (and a corresponding penalty to to-hit), the next 4 seconds you can only do maybe 50% of your regular damage, and the last 4 seconds you do 80% of your regular damage before, at the 10 second mark, you're back to doing your regular damage. It would be an overall boon to people who do not stack Rage, but stops Super Strength from going into crazy territory like it does now due to being unable to stack.

That solves the issue of Super Strength's overpowered-ness while keeping within theme and having a penalty that still allows you to attack.

We've had multiple powers now that are not recharge-affected, and we now have powers that scale down in effect over time, so the tech is all there, and for this suggestion, it really is just a matter of balancing the numbers so that it fits. No cottage rules have to be broken, it brings Super Strength back in line with other sets, gets rid of a QoL issue and an unfair penalty, and still stays within theme. Yes?

Mess with YOUR super strength. Yours huh? Not the games, or the devs? Or ours? Just yours?

I'd prefer Rage to be made utterly unstackable. How do you fly into a Rage (when your already FURIOUS, in a brutes case) then get...even more angry?

I like the idea of a scaling debuff, as you cool off, from spaz mode, as it were.

ALso see Bills point about the crash being 'In' theme, and fitting the set. I just dont think that is a full argument for NOT tweaking/fixing/balancing the set. How far do you take the 'punch stuff' argument? To me, ma, stj and ss feel nothing alike (well..as is). Are you saying they are alike because its hitting stuff? Hand to hand? In which case, arent Kat, Bs axe and mace..all just 'hitting with objects?' They even share a lot MORE animations than the HtH sets.

They already tweaked the set so that brutes could keep aggro during the crash they obviuously don't feel the set needs balancing.

I know we are talking about things that cross from theme to performance and back again here Bill but...you are saying the buff needs to be MORE than 80% damage, if it inst stackable? Be serious. Constant 80% damage, from yourself, is HUGE. Just huge. Never mind that before SOs, no one COULD (well, alone, maybe with hasten you could stack in now and then, im not sure?) stack it..If it was fine back then, with no stacking, why would tweaking it to be NOW no stacking suddenly make it require a bigger buff?

Not attacking your opinion..I find your points interesting.

I am rereading what you said about turning Rage in a click when up power. And trying to word my replies not to seemingly insult you..lol. How is this ANY different to right now, assuming your toon has the ability to stack rage, you ARE already clicking it 'when its up', every time. To stack rage! And if you arent, if you hold of clicking, cause you dont want the double crashes...how would that be any different to a non stacking Rage Mk2? It would be the same..in both cases.

I can understand why you like that feeling of being involved in the set, of choice. Can you, or do you, agree that Rage as it is now, is in NEED of a change? As is SS as a set. Again, not being rude..but if you cant admit that, there isnt much point arguing why it should be (as I see it). Your opinions are fine, I see why you like it as is..but just because you like it, does not make the set suddenly fine (which it seems most people can agree on). Not changing something just cause it works great currently..is not a good reason.

Because I am stupid and apparently can't math to save my life, how much recharge does it take to perma double stack rage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

Going to try multiquote you Bill..fingers crossed!

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill You seem to be answering some of your questions... and - isn't the above quote basically saying "Change it for the sake of change?" I mean, if it works great currently, why does it need change? Stalkers didn't work "great" - I found them fun, but agreed they needed change. They got changed. They're much more fun now. (And more in line with how I played them anyway, I tended to stay and scrap.)

Maybe I should have elaborated a bit, and said what I meant..instead of just meant in my head. Saying SS works great does NOT mean it is balanced, makes sense, or has a good theme, or anything else. It means (here, from me) that it works great. Which it does. Stacked rage is insane, footstomp is insane with that rage. Great performance. My arguments for wanting it changed, the set and rage, mostly just rage...are that its just too good. And not inline with other sets. As an outlier, even one that works great..why cant that be a reason for change? (Also, I thought stalkers were 100% fine and great before the buff. I didnt think they needed it..so really, we have reverse positions there!)

(Edit, for new thoughts. It now occurs to me that saying its indsane performance may not be true..I am not sure on the numbers or anything, but I have no doubt someone could give a firm Yes it is a great outlier, or a No it isnt. Especially since the best SS case, pairs it with FA. But even so..I still think it offers far to much compared to other sets.)

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill But it *isn't* constant 80% damage. It's 80% damage... then -9999% damage and a defense buff. Do you want to deal with that drop while facing an AV? Do you want - especially as a defense based character, and I am speaking mostly on the part of tanks - want that drop to happen with a x8 stack of enemies piled on you? Sure, footstomp - try to keep some of them knocked down. But you've got that window of "burnout" to deal with.

I never said it was constant damage (I think..). Again, I think it should NOT be stacking..it makes no sense. Going with that, and clicking once, thats a 10 second crash. 110 secs of 80% dam, 10 secs of none (BUT you can use vet powers..mu, nem staff, blackwand..3 HIGH damage attacks, that will do find damage in the crash). That is pretty near too constant as we can expect. Its a LOT more constant than build up. My other argument with the crash (not that teh crash is there..I agree with you..it should crash) is how unfair the -def hit is to defence based build. Even the crash up..that is my other suggestion.