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Its changed a couple of times so yes between 90 and 95 and it may change again before we see it. Regardless build up will be seeing a very nice damage increase with a chance for double buildup.
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Originally Posted by RevolverMike
is the cap 95%? Thought it was 90.
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I like this idea. They seem to be making everything else crashless might as make rage crashless too. Of course, the side effect would be reducing of the buff, which probably in turn mean increasing the base damage of SS.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I know this will be an unpopular suggestion, but I'm going to post it in the hopes of getting some feedback from reasonable people.
I propose the following: 1) Increase the base damage of Super Strength across the board. and 2) Reduce the buff from Rage to be more in line with other sustainable damage boost powers (such as Follow Up). 3) When reducing the buff from Rage, also remove the crash entirely. And also possibly reduce the base recharge to make it easier to double-stack without needing huge amounts of recharge from set bonuses. It has long been known that the ability to double-stack Rage is somewhat overpowered when it is applied to powers that are not balanced to take Rage into account like Super Strength powers are. My proposal would eliminate some of that overpoweredness while not gimping Super Strength itself. Such a change would be necessary if we ever want to see Super Strength ported to Scrappers. If Scrapper Rage followed the same pattern as Build Up when ported between ATs, it would end up being a stackable 100% damage boost. I can understand the devs' reluctance to give Scrappers something that powerful when their damage scalar is already so high. |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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... just because the power is named "rage" does not mean the character is angry, any more than taking an Enraged/Focused Rage/Righteous Rage/Furious Rage inspiration does, or using Gloom means the using character is depressed/depressing.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
My proposal also would be a BUFF to the set for the levels before you have Rage, and for those people who choose not to use it. You know, for those people whose concept does not involve their character being angry.
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Yes..but only for TEN seconds. as opposed to..double stacked rage being..what, 80? (or whatever, I dont know) secs. Of course the crash matters but..|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Another thing that I want to bring up is the PPM changes in Issue 24. This will result in an indirect nerf to rage and a buff to buildup. The Gaussian's Chance for Buildup will go from 5% chance to 95% chance when in buildup come Issue 24. (Due to the way PPM works)
Basically this means characters will be getting the equal of double rage from a single buildup. |
As an aside...does this make sense? Not what your saying, I mean then making the proc go from crap to..sounding fully insane? Have they actually considering this? In the same way I think stacking rage is too good..Id say a 95% chance of x2 BU is also too good.
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*printscreen* Some one else with sense |
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
I like this idea. They seem to be making everything else crashless might as make rage crashless too. Of course, the side effect would be reducing of the buff, which probably in turn mean increasing the base damage of SS.
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Remember though two things:|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Yes..but only for TEN seconds. as opposed to..double stacked rage being..what, 80? (or whatever, I dont know) secs. Of course the crash matters but..
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1) Buildup's base recharge is 90 seconds. At 100% recharge its 45 seconds, at 200% its 30 seconds, at 300% its ~22 seconds, at the cap its 18 seconds. This means that just being at 200% (Which isn't unreasonable with a high recharge build with hasten) you can have it up 1/3 of the time while a double stacked rage crashes every 60 seconds for 10 seconds.
2) Super Strength's base attacks are fairly weak for their damage and animation times. Other sets in the above scenario will pull ahead even more.
Edit: And yes Synapse has considered this. There is an entire thread on it in the Developer's corner if you wish to read it. In short the developers are marginalizing all procs so that you aren't "penalized" by where you put them. You put them in your favorite attacks or powers not where they will be "best." -- Pretty much everything comes out as a buff from this, the only things that are nerfed are super fast quick recharging powers like neutrino bolt for -res procs.
Yes but...the very issue of double stacked rage having a longer crash is too me..moot..because I am already saying being able TO stack it is silly. Likewise..Bu with the proc, if it goes live at 95%, is just gonna be silly too.
Oh yes, I was reading the Proc thread. And I STILL question the idea in making a proc thats been junk since it came out, into what with be seen an sure fire, for anything with aim/bu!
I also totally dont trust His thought processes, when wasnt he the one who let the PerShifter store proc out with a bigger PPM, then took about a month to admit that..hey, I didnt mean that! Followed by a 'nerf' to it. Given that..I would not be shocked to see the BU proc come out at 95%, then 2 months later (after forum rage) it gets hammered back to normal territory.
That would be EXACTLY what occured with the OF kb proc, in bonfire. When there was a huge thread about how broken it was (too most people) and they still pushed it out.
Sorry, but saying a dev thinks something is correct, does not make it so. But..obviously it IS all the matters when it comes to what ends up Live.
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Perhaps he doesn't want to nerf Rage but instead buff other things to level the playing field? I am not sure what Synapse's line of reasoning is but the proc will go live. Even at 1 PPM (And it cannot be set to less as the formula does not accept decimals) it will be 95% in build up.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Yes but...the very issue of double stacked rage having a longer crash is too me..moot..because I am already saying being able TO stack it is silly. Likewise..Bu with the proc, if it goes live at 95%, is just gonna be silly too.
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PPM * ((Base Recharge Time + Time To Activate) / (60 * Area Factor))
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Five seconds, actually.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Yes..but only for TEN seconds. as opposed to..double stacked rage being..what, 80? (or whatever, I dont know) secs. Of course the crash matters but..
As an aside...does this make sense? Not what your saying, I mean then making the proc go from crap to..sounding fully insane? Have they actually considering this? In the same way I think stacking rage is too good..Id say a 95% chance of x2 BU is also too good. |
Unless they change their mind about the Gaussian proc specifically between now and i24 (which is possible, but so far we have no indication that they will), this is not just being considered, it's announced and already underway. The Attuned version of the Gaussian set has been on beta for some time, awaiting release, and the proc is still sitting at 1 PPM.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Even at 1 PPM (And it cannot be set to less as the formula does not accept decimals) it will be 95% in build up.
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I should rephrase that, they don't put any PPM's below 1. Thats what I meant by decimals a value between 0 and 1.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Five seconds, actually.
Unless they change their mind about the Gaussian proc specifically between now and i24 (which is possible, but so far we have no indication that they will), this is not just being considered, it's announced and already underway. The Attuned version of the Gaussian set has been on beta for some time, awaiting release, and the proc is still sitting at 1 PPM. The formula certainly can accept decimals (Performance Shifter is 1.5 PPM, purple damage procs are 4.5, and almost every proc will have a non-whole-number PPM come i24), and the cap is 90%. |
They haven't yet made any procs with PPM below 1. There's no compelling reason they won't or can't, as far as I'm aware, should they decide a PPM of 1 is too high for something.
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What is the Gaussian's Build Up proc under? I cannot find it in City of Data.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
They haven't yet made any procs with PPM below 1. There's no compelling reason they won't or can't, as far as I'm aware, should they decide a PPM of 1 is too high for something.
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The Gaussian proc's buff is called Boost Up:
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...Bonus.Boost_Up
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Trying not to take this off topic but I never looked at the stats behind it... that has a 40% to hit or 400 to hit before taking into account a .1 conversion?
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
The Gaussian proc's buff is called Boost Up:
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...Bonus.Boost_Up |
5 secs? Your saying..the crash from DSR is FIVE seconds? And somehow..you dont see that as being a bit too good? (not you hope) I just..cant even reply to that. lol. Yeah cause 180% damage buff and a 5 secs crash..nah nothing wrong there...apparently!!
And the fact you say they wont change the proc from 95% chance per BU hit..again, speechless.
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Yes, the tohit bonus on the proc is very large. If it's too strong and they don't want to reduce the proc chance (for whatever reason), reducing the size of the hit and damage buff would also be a possibility. Although, really, I'm not convinced a high-but-not-guaranteed chance for a 5-second buff from a Unique rare proc in a longish-recharge power will actually need nerfing. It's certainly a huge improvement over the current 5% version, but the current proc is garbage.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Trying not to take this off topic but I never looked at the stats behind it... that has a 40% to hit or 400 to hit before taking into account a .1 conversion?
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Originally Posted by MisterD
5 secs? Your saying..the crash from DSR is FIVE seconds? And somehow..you dont see that as being a bit too good? (not you hope) I just..cant even reply to that. lol. Yeah cause 180% damage buff and a 5 secs crash..nah nothing wrong there...apparently!!
And the fact you say they wont change the proc from 95% chance per BU hit..again, speechless. |
Since the i24 proc changes have not even started beta testing yet, I wouldn't be too confident that any part of it won't change.
Posted this in the other thread Ultimus posted on the A&PG forum:
Disclaimer: the following numbers ignore the post-GR sets (Kineticks, Titan Weapons, Staff, Street fighting)
Here is the issue: what keeps Super Strength "in check" is design defects of the set (that you may consider features today.) The average attack has poor DPA, and although the set has one excelent DPA attack in KOB, it suffers a 25% recharge time penalty.
Another thing keeping the set in check is that as strong as Foot Stomp is, it's just one AoE that happens to have a convenient larger than normal radius. Any set with just one AoE can be considered to suffer AoE damage output issues, (at minimum a melee set should have a BPAoE and a cone) however Rage makes sure that one PBAoE always counts basically for one and a half, making up the lack of a secondary AoE tool.
The problem with Rage and SS comes with external sources of AoE. These sources can be plenty. It may be your secondary (Fire>Burn or Shield Charge) or it may be epic pools. I have found the nastiest combo can come with SS/Fire/Mu Mastery (my current SS/Inv is also running Mu Mastery and it is, indeed, insane.)
Proliferating the set can also be a huge issue. For one porting the set to scrappers suffer another issue: they would be disproportionally stronger since for them Rage would be working at 100% damage buff, not 80%. That is on top of KOB's insane critical under perma rage.
To expand on this now a bit more:
There are issues with Rages. It buffs things in unexpected ways. Although the set itself feels balanced (even at high levels of recharge with multi-stacking) it still is too good any time you introduce any external power.
If I was to alter SS in any way, this is what I'd do:
- Buff Jab so it no longer sucks so bad. Make it a 3 second recharge power.
- Turn Rage into a toggle with a 0.56 end per second cost.
- Rage no longer gets a crash, but now applies a constant 15% resistance debuff (resistable)
- Rage now only offers 80% flat (not modified by AT) buff to Smashing damage.
- All other damage types get buffed by 40% (flat not modified by AT.)
I believe that SS needs to change. It is unfair to have a set that allows Brutes and Tankers to circumvent their position in the damage hierarchy via broken mechanics. Claws suggestion is fine, but I would prefer they lessen the Rage damage buff (to about 30%) and remove the penalties that SS attacks suffer. I would make the crash a short (3 sec.) stun and that's it.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
"Their position in the damage hierarchy"?
Seriously?
Damage ranking iz srs bzns?
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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What's your point? The discussion is about a balance consideration.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
"Their position in the damage hierarchy"?
Seriously? Damage ranking iz srs bzns? |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I got to say I am confused with your statement too. "Their position in the damage hierarchy"?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
What's your point? The discussion is about a balance consideration.
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What do you mean by that? Super Strength (or almost all sets in the game) are not designed to fit in a specific performance bracket perpetuallyl.
The oldest sets in particulary were never intended to do as much or as little damage as they ended up doing, and they have been tweaked over time various times precisely because there is no defniniton of where they should be, so they tweak hoping it feels better and not underperforms.
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Easy, if SS would be overpowered if ported to Scrappers, then it is overpowered now on Brutes and Tankers. SS allows these two ATs to do, with this powerset , more damage than these ATs should do vis a vis Scrappers and Stalkers.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I got to say I am confused with your statement too. "Their position in the damage hierarchy"?
What do you mean by that? Super Strength (or almost all sets in the game) are not designed to fit in a specific performance bracket perpetuallyl. The oldest sets in particulary were never intended to do as much or as little damage as they ended up doing, and they have been tweaked over time various times precisely because there is no defniniton of where they should be, so they tweak hoping it feels better and not underperforms. |
Their position in the damage hierarchy: Tankers>Brutes>Scrappers/Stalkers is broken. IMO a damage set is not fair if it cannot exist on all ATs that use that type of power set.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Strange, I agreed with your post earlier in the thread. Are you recanting it? |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
EG is, of course, wrong.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Them saying that does not stop forum nerf herders from trolling the topic up again from time to time.
I wasn't trying to get SS nerfed.
I was trying to stop powers not in SS from being so damn overpowered when Rage is applied to them. When the top ST attack chain for a powerset combo is Gloom-Burn-KO Blow because Rage boosts Burn and Gloom so much, there is a bit of a problem. If people could get Gloom to recharge fast enough, the top ST chain would not involve a single attack from SS.
My proposal also would be a BUFF to the set for the levels before you have Rage, and for those people who choose not to use it. You know, for those people whose concept does not involve their character being angry.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.