Adjusting Super Strength.

Rage lasts for 2 minutes (120 seconds).

Base recharge is 240 seconds. MAXIMUM recharge will bring it down to 60 seco

3 Common IOs alone will bring that down to 120-122 seconds.
At the global recharge cap, it's possible to have Rage down as far as 48 seconds
Realistically, you'd have to pretty much compromise your build for global recharge above 200% (which makes Hasten effectively perma) and the Force Feedback proc can occasionally boost your recharge.

Even so, it's rather easily possible to overlap Rage for anywhere from 30-50 seconds. As such, the +ToHit and +Damage effects are doubled.

Hasten will reduce it further.

If you have a single Rage up, you'll get a damage crash where all your Secondary pool powers (Super Strength) will be severely damaged debuffed. Also, you'll experience a 20% (all kinds) defense crash and a 25% endurance crash.

You cannot mitigate the damage debuff or the endurance crash, BUT, if another instance of Rage is up you don't experience the defense crash.

Incarnate powers like Spiritual and Agility just make it "easier" to get ridiculously high caps now, without compromising your build.

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Don't use Taunt. Rarely need to Heal. And, more importantly, it's 10 seconds every 2 minutes. What can I say, it just really gets on my nerves. Probably because my Inv/SS is a scranker.

Honestly? NO.

Without Rage, SS is a bottom-tier set.

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Highlights what I MEAN when I say I think Rage is just to good. Going from trash, to wtfmadness, due to ONE power? How about plant control without SoC? Would not be trash..but nothing like what it is, with it.

Thing is, you have multiple power sets out there with "set defining" powers.

Grav with Singy.
Kin with Fulcrum Shift.
Stone Armor with Granite.
Illusion with PA

Under normal circumstances, Rage "normalizes" SS. With high-recharge builds, double-rage becomes a viable, sustainable state and ONLY then does the set become OMGWTFBBQOP'ed.

But is it more OP'ed than Perma PA?
Or an SOA running double Leadership toggles?

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SS doesn't go from trash to WTF due to one power. It goes from trash to nice with one power. It goes from trash to WTF need with the right defense set, power pool, and IOs.

The thing is, Rage also affects Ancillary/Epic pool powers as well. The fact that it hasn't been nerfed after NUMEROUS looks pretty much states this is WAI.

In some cases, this is no small amount of damage being amplified.

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He's basically talking about flat out damage potential.

One application of Rage takes you from a *meh* to a *decent* powerset.
Stacking is where Rage takes SS into *OMGWTFBBQSOSTRONGWHERESPRETTY?* range.

To be fair, pre-Incarnates, Rage stacking was somewhat limited unless you jacked your build around a lot.

Now you can do things like this:

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As far as I'm aware, SS hasn't had any development looks at all in years. The last dev comment that I recall on the topic was from I think Castle (?), saying something to the effect of "If you like Super Strength as it is, don't ask me to look at Super Strength. The set will be changed drastically if I ever look at it."

Like Arcanaville, I was blessed with a mathematical mind. Teachers hated me in school as I could get all 0's on my homework (never did it) then get 100% on the test. Its a reason I am excellent at min / maxing. Unlike Arcanaville, I tend to use my powers for myself which I fully admit at time and I also do not do things like open 2400 super packs or do demo records to analyze every little detail. With that being said, I will sit down and take a moment to define my statement.

Foremost, let me state at 50 your footstomp does not deal over 600 damage. It does 59.22 damage to an even con enemy at 50 with no smashing resistance. At damage cap that would be 7.75 X 59.22 = 458.955. This would decrease when fighting a +2 enemy (you stated 52) or still be decreased fighting a +1 assuming you are alpha shifted. You could deal that much assuming a 35% resistance debuff and that the enemy had 0 smashing damage to begin with. However, for simplicity sake I am not going to factor that in as I would have to do it for every equation although I will nod to resists and how they factor later on. You also stated ITF which means Cimerorans which do indeed have smashing resistance.

Additionally, you mentioned Fire Melee which can have more AOE potential then Footstomp. (Note: Potential) -- Fire Melee's AOE while it has less AOE radius deals more damage. It deals 64.64 damage upfront (Which is more damage then footstomp to begin with) followed by 80% chance of 4 ticks of 4.17 damage. 32.64 + 4 X 4.17 of this damage is fire damage which is less resisted then smashing. Moreover, it also has a cone which deals 56.72 damage with 4 ticks of 4.17 damage too. Depending the amount of recharge, (Especially if we are factoring in perma double stacked rage) Build Up can be up for nearly 33% of the time. Assuming you factor in one round of that under buildup followed by movement to the next spawn, it could almost have buildup up each spawn.

Here is where players tend to get narrowly focused and look at only Rage and double stacked Rage. At point A in time, yes rage is superior. (Or in this case, at damage buff A in time) However, if you look at how Super Strength factors as more and more buffs are factored in you see there is eventually a crossing point where damage becomes equal and then surpassed. Allow me to elaborate.

Imagine a X - Y chart. Super Strength would be graphed as a line that has a positive slope that increases and continues to increase. X could be the damage buff while Y would be the DPS potential. Super Strength starts very far along X because it gets an advantage of Rage. However, after that advantage point its slope of Y (Slope is represented by MX + b) is low. In layman terms, this means that for every percentage of damage added to Super Strength, its Y increases by only a small amount compared to other sets. In fact, its one of the smallest.

I am going to use the biggest outlier for Super Strength which is SS/FA/Soul which has the best possible chain of KOB > Gloom > Burn > Gloom > KOB. (For AOE the best chain would be something like FS > Dark Oblit > Burn, etc) and compare it to the other biggest outlier which is Titan Weapons.

TW and SS are tied in single target potential in pylon tests. I am not sure if this factored in -Res procs (Which if it didn't that would put TW slightly ahead) and while AOE DPS is harder to measure they are pretty much tied given TW has a 1 sec animating AOE and two very hard hitting cones).

Going back to our X - Y chart the lines for Super Strength and TW would be intersecting at Point A. However, for SS point A is a combination where X/Y where X is VERY high (given the extra 160% damage buff from double rage) and Y is lower. Though in this case Titan WEapon's Y = SS's Y.

Past this intersection, as you go down the X part TW's Y SIGNIFICANTLY increases due to every percentage of damage buff added significantly directly effects the amount of Y due to TW's slope being MUCH higher then Super Strength's. This means past this point, TW will begin dealing more and more damage then Super Strength. This is what I mean by how SS diminishes when more buffs are added.

Lets look at some not so great sets because you mentioned them:

Energy Melee (You didn't mention this but I would like to use it since so many people state it sucks) -- Energy Melee's best potential chain is ET > Gloom > Burn > ET. Knockout Blow actually suffers a 5 sec penalty due to having 10 range (Seismac Smash, Total Focus, Energy Transfer all have 20 second recharges compared to SS's KOB having 25).

The calculation here becomes more difficult because in the above chain you would have to factor build up into it and how often depending on the recharge. However, I do not want to bombard you with tons of numbers so I will explain this in layman charts with our chart again. NOTE: Energy Melee's AOE is fairly weak but I don't think trying to compare the weakest AOE set in the brute primary to anything is fair, thats something that needs fixing.

Going back to our chart, EM's chain actually deals more DPS then SS but with rage factored in SS's X is higher which puts it at a higher slope. However, since EM's Y is MUCH higher then SS's as EM's X increases its slope becomes larger and larger. At a certain point MUCH before the Brute damage cap they intersect. (I believe this point comes around 200% damage buff possibly 160%, this if factoring in max fury 200% for each set and double stacked rage). Past this point EM pulls away and begins dealing more and more damage until they both cap out which SS will hit first.

The same occurs for Stone Melee as the above with a few exceptions. Stone Melee's best possible chain is Seismac Smash > Gloom > Burn > Seismac Smash. Seismac Smash has an insane DPA and pulls ahead much sooner in the above scenario. While its AOE is less DPS due to a longer animation (But does have the same 15 foot AOE) it does gain a better AOE crowd control power. If all we are factoring in is simply damage then yes SS is superior in AOE. However, AOE crowd control does have merit otherwise Doms and Controllers would have no use. Is that a fair balance trade off? The developers seem to think so or the trade off isn't so imbalanced that it warrants a change quite yet.

Fire Melee even with its best chain does less then Super Strength's even when at the damage cap. Its AOE potential though is greater when factoring in the X - Y chart. However, Fire Melee gets an endurance bonus on all of its attacks. Fire Melee's chains typically cost a fraction of the endurance compared to other sets. An example would be Incinerate vs KOB Incinerate is literally 1/3 of the endurance cost of KOB. Players though tend to get narrowly focused ONLY on DPS because they look at extremes such as ALWAYS having 100% endurance and never running out. The truth is you are never always at full endurance and there are times you run out. If we are looking at balance in terms of ONLY DPS then Fire Melee is inferior to Super Strength. However, if we look at balance as several factors (Which is how the developers look at it) then Fire Melee is balanced because its attacks cost way less endurance.

If you have more questions, or still do not understand feel free to ask. I hope this explains and illustrates things better.

Just replying to this bit before the rest of your post. I know your trying to be helpful, and I understand you breaking things down it maths etc. BUT...I never said 'footstomp does 600 damage', not in the way you are saying I SAID it. I said..it does that, in a decent team with damage buffs and debuffs around. I Know exactly what it does at 50, with no rage..I can look at numbers too. Maybe, to be fair, 600 was an exaggeration, most likely it WAS. I honestly cant remember, and no lazy to go test. But it was a lot. And a lot more than I see my other brutes doing with there aoes, on similar teams.

I was just using that example to illustrate my point that I think Rage is too good, leaving aside all teh formula, maths what have you. Part of that is, as I keep saying..the stacking rage, which I think is dumb. Others dont, thats ok. I also think the buffing other damage (not just SS's) could stand to be lowered or removed.

Reading the rest of your post Ult.

You stated:

Which my math was for that to be true you would have to be damage capped and then on top of that you need a 35% resistance debuff assuming the enemy had 0 smashing resistance to which you stated it was cimerorans which have smashing resistance. Assuming they are +2 (Or even +1 for that matter) you would need even more -Resistance because your damage would be lower against a higher level enemy.

My point was saying that if you are an extreme team of that nature that is damage capping you and doing a -Resistance of 35% or higher then the other sets will have most likely surpassed Super Strength and its not your footstomp + Rage that is one shotting or two shotting things but the buffs from your team.

Again, I appreciate the time you are taking to explain things better. However..although it does help me understand it, it really doesnt change how I feel about the topic. Im not being stubborn, Im not refusing to see your points or reasons. Part of the reason I just..'dont care' is that you keep going on about the best possible attack chains. Let's be honest..HOW many people use the best possible chain, all the time?

Nevermind that the best is always paired with Fire Armour..saying a set somehow does not need a tweak (or even just LOOKING at it closer) just because, in the instance when you pair it with a totally different set, and use Magic Atacck Chain #1, it is awesome!

I am having a similar discussion about Melae Armour sets..just cause somethings great at max performance (and obviously, the 'best' attack chain is gonna be that) does not mean something could not stand a tweak.

A set at best possible conditions..is just that. As I am saying..my brute, single rage, decent team..it FEELS to good. Stuff the numbers, stuff the graph. (again..I did find your explanations helpful, dont get me wrong) Serious question..would the Devs, when making a set, do all these graphs and take unto account max performance? I KNOW we (as players) do so with a new set when it hits test..but do they?

But..it was NOT an extreme team! And how have other sets surpasses SS..when..again, I SAID I have been on similar teams with other sets, and I dont have an aoe doing THAT damage. Yes yes..the teams would not have been 100% the same with buffs/debuffs, but still. The point was that with average lvls of support, the set is just insane.

Yes they do these things. Synapse uses tons of spreadsheets and graphs. In fact, I talk to him quite a bit and he admits to often having "nightmares" about them. Like ever been at work and doing something over and over you begin to dream about it? Hehe I have so I can relate to what he means.

As for why I used the best possible chains, I did it to illustrate what people consider the outlier SS/FA/Soul. However, my above statements can be generalized to even the not so best or the mediocre attack chains.

For example, if a SS was using a chain of Jab/Punch/Haymaker/KOB/Hurl it would eventually concede to an attack chain of Fire's Scorch/Fire Sword/Incinerate/Cremate/GFS much quicker then in my above examples. I used the extreme's to more so help illustrate your case (Which I was disproving).

However, if I don't use the extremes my case is actually much better supported as Super Strength's attacks have some of the lowest base DPS in the entire game compared to other sets which is why its best attack chain consists only 1/3 of attacks from Super Strength (although it should be attack since it only uses one attack).

"Feels" is fine just like some people enjoy playing certain sets because it "feels" smoother or why some people avoid sets with redraw because it breaks the "feel." -- However, feeling is not used in a balancing standpoint hard numbers and calculations are. What I am trying to explain is that the numbers are not as extreme as people think and that they are in fact fairly balanced.

I am also trying to point out not everything is balanced around DPS in the case of fire where its endurance costs are very minute for the amount of damage each attack does or in the case of Stone Melee where it gets one of the best AOE crowd controls of any melee set. Some players only think damage is the best balancing factor and thats fine but the developers do balance around multiple factors. I am not saying that is right or wrong I am just pointing out how it is done.

If you don't agree with my numbers, you can PM Arcanaville and ask her as I have always found she is very helpful and responsive too and usually has spreadsheets handy on things.

Well there could be several factors: Is your slotting and set bonuses the same? Is your alpha the same? Is your secondary the same?

Secondly, are you going off "feeling" or are you actually copying your damage log and numerically proving you are doing less given the above factors are consistent?

I will break down Fire Sword Circle VS Foostomp for you:

FFC = 64.64 + 4.17 X 4
Footstomp = 59.22

Assuming 130% Enhancement value (From Musculature alpha) and 200% Fury and double stacked rage FS would deal: 349.398 damage

FFC = 349.676 with 130% enhancement value and 200% fury. With build up going it would out damage Footstomp cause it would deal 414.732 damage.

So I do not see how your FS could deal more damage.

Edit: The gap only WIDENS in Fire's favor as you get more damage buffs from teammates (Leadership, Kinetic, Fortitude, etc) and -Resistance is factored in since mobs tend to resist fire less then smashing damage.

Well I don't like to try and prove a point without having numbers backing. In the last example I showed where with simple enhancements alpha and fury and double stacked rage that Fire Sword Circle deals more damage then footstomp. With build up it deals WAY more. With team damage buffs it does even more.

Do I agree Super Strength has a powerful feel and fun factor to it? Yes I do. But do I agree its drastically overpowered and that it hits for so much more damage? No I don't and I don't think its fair to call it that when numerically that is not true.

is the cap 95%? Thought it was 90.