Do you think they will end up making Tier 9 Armor powers crashless too?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-24 24:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I hope they'll be looked at...especially the ones that do -90% HP and -100% End....
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AFAIK the reason they did crash was to discourage people from relying on them/seeing them as the only good power in a set. (Like Granite) That is why we got things like "Unaffected by global recharge" and what not.
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No, they won't. I know folks who can come very close to perma-Power Surge and that would be ridiculously overpowered and require nerfs to certain T9's. Running around with capped resists and firing off an end-draining AoE hold that damages robots every 2-4 minutes with no crash? I don't think so.
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If they did I would expect them to be changed to follow the same model as One with the Shield. Lowered values, a fixed recharge and a minor crash at the end.
Personally I'd be fine with that, when I look at powers like Unstoppable and consider the rest of the set the word "overkill" leaps to mind. An Invulnerability Tanker has about 30% resistance (after enhancement) to most damage types (a lot more to S/L, nothing to Psi) and a resistance cap of 90%. And yet Unstoppable gives 70% resistance unenhanced. It would make a lot more sense if it gave 40%-50% resistance unenhanced so that less of its power is wasted.
EDIT: I'd also say that Elude should be seriously changed. A defense based Tier 9 in a set that is almost entirely defense based anyway is not that useful anyway. The extra DDR is nice but it could really use some other mitigation like resistances or Elude the mechanic (the one in PvP that counters accuracy).
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Yeah, all of this. Cashless T9s would need to be rebalanced. I would expect a fixed recharge at the very least if they did remove/lessen the crashes.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
No, they won't. I know folks who can come very close to perma-Power Surge and that would be ridiculously overpowered and require nerfs to certain T9's. Running around with capped resists and firing off an end-draining AoE hold that damages robots every 2-4 minutes with no crash? I don't think so.
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The thing is that defense sets are already over powered in the end game. I don't see them trying to make them more powerful.
blast sets needed a boost
I rely heavily on Invulnerability Armor, and I NEVER take the tier 9. I agree with everyone above who says they would need to be rebalanced completely if the crash went away.
I absolute HATE not having a tier 9 power in a set I use so much, but I see no good answer. But the Crash isn't just a crash it's a death sentence, and that is stupid. Especially in a set with no self rez. Just retoggling everything takes a full minute even if you bounce back up.
So, it's crappy the way it is and crappy if you change it.
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And that's not a bad thing, in my opinion. While I usually loathe when other people say this sort of thing, the old-style Tier 9 armors in effect punish players for using them. Instead of being useful abilities to have when you really need them, they're essentially big ol' self-destruct buttons - some far moreso than others - that, depending upon the specific situation, have players sweating bullets hoping they can overcome what they need to before the timer runs out. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yeah, all of this. Cashless T9s would need to be rebalanced. I would expect a fixed recharge at the very least if they did remove/lessen the crashes.
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They come from the same line of thought that decided the original Defiance inherent was a good idea -- that you MUST trade power for survivability in some fashion, and that you can only go big in either direction. As someone who started off in CoH as a Tanker during the beta and pretty much stuck to that AT until Brutes and eventually VEATs were introduced, I'd much rather see all the tier 9 armors be reworked to function more like Strength of Will.
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Tell that to someone with Rise of the Phoenix and now every set is getting a self res via the Presence pool.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I rely heavily on Invulnerability Armor, and I NEVER take the tier 9. I agree with everyone above who says they would need to be rebalanced completely if the crash went away.
I absolute HATE not having a tier 9 power in a set I use so much, but I see no good answer. But the Crash isn't just a crash it's a death sentence, and that is stupid. Especially in a set with no self rez. Just retoggling everything takes a full minute even if you bounce back up. So, it's crappy the way it is and crappy if you change it. |
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RotP =/= Just a Self Rez
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Tell that to someone with Rise of the Phoenix and now every set is getting a self res via the Presence pool.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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My guess is that the crashes get reexamined at some point, but I doubt they go away completely. I think its possible we one day see end crashing get reduced to something more like a high -MaxEnd reduction (analogous to Burnout) and health crashing get significantly reduced in strength. But I don't think you'll see crashes disappear completely.
| Do you think they will end up making Tier 9 Armor powers crashless too? |
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Interestingly, Unstoppable has found some new life in my Katana/Invuln that I've resurrected from the idle 50 pile. In running with a build that dates from I9 through DA at +0x8, I find Unstoppable does help quite a bit when things get a bit rough, if I remember not to be fighting in the middle of a giant spawn when it crashes.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I rely heavily on Invulnerability Armor, and I NEVER take the tier 9. I agree with everyone above who says they would need to be rebalanced completely if the crash went away.
I absolute HATE not having a tier 9 power in a set I use so much, but I see no good answer. But the Crash isn't just a crash it's a death sentence, and that is stupid. Especially in a set with no self rez. Just retoggling everything takes a full minute even if you bounce back up. So, it's crappy the way it is and crappy if you change it. |
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So what? Plenty of characters get access to a self rez in their epic pools already and lots of vets have an inherent self rez. I doubt we'll see people lining up to take presence just for the self rez anyway.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Tell that to someone with Rise of the Phoenix and now every set is getting a self res via the Presence pool.
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While I have never liked the crashes on nukes, I do not mind the crash on Unstoppable. There is a significant difference between a power that can help me in one spawn and a power that can help in 4 to 6 spawns.
I wasn't a big fan of Unstoppable before they added the blinky, power-about-to-end icons. But that allows me to manage the crash nicely.
Still, I could see them one day moderating the crashes.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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actually the self rez in presence is extra cool because it is not a self rez|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So what? Plenty of characters get access to a self rez in their epic pools already and lots of vets have an inherent self rez. I doubt we'll see people lining up to take presence just for the self rez anyway.
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it is a self buff and heal that will also rez you if you are defeated
the self rezzes in defense sets would be great if they changed so you could use them when you were not defeated.
Rise of the Phoenix as a pbaoe damage attack which disorients foes would be awesome if you did not have to be defeated to use it.
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I used to use Unstoppable, and I agree with your tactics. Because you are right.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Interestingly, Unstoppable has found some new life in my Katana/Invuln that I've resurrected from the idle 50 pile. In running with a build that dates from I9 through DA at +0x8, I find Unstoppable does help quite a bit when things get a bit rough, if I remember not to be fighting in the middle of a giant spawn when it crashes.
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However,... Unstoppable's use in a modern team (or league, eek) environment is really really stupid. You are virtually guaranteed to be dead when the thing drops, unless you spend the last minute shaking agro and becoming USELESS to the team/league. THat gives you 2 minutes good times, 1 min running, 1 min recovering (you'll prob still need to retoggle at least a few and join team from your hole) Some environments do not even allow for this type of hiding, even if you liked to play this type of Jekyll/Hide (spelled that way on purpose, HIDE, get it, I'm Hiding....) Seriously, the only reason I could think to take it is on a poorly enhanced character that you need to be able to tank for 3 minutes and are willing to eat floor at the end of the run to pay for the bonuses your sets would have gotten you. It is a crossroads deal, and I just won't take it. Now if you could help me play guitar better we could talk...
Lets see, unstoppable starts blinking, hit conserve power, unstoppable drops, hit dull pain, eat a blue, keep going.
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Stop making sense!
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Originally Posted by profit
lets see, unstoppable starts blinking, hit conserve power, unstoppable drops, hit dull pain, eat a blue, keep going.
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K, Ill retool a 50 and see how this works. If it works everytime I will be okay with that. With a caveat, this further restricts build structure around invulnerability. Invul is a great set in many ways, but does NOT do well with End Hungry Attack sets. In fact I pair it with Dark over 50% of the time. There are only so many Dark/Invul Brute + Scraps or Invul/Dark Tanks anybody needs. To further say, oh, it is Dark/Invul/Nrg every time? Also, it is not an option for Brutes, the most efficient users of Invul in my opinion, they get no conserve power option. I also think Unstoppable is slightly wasted on Scrappers, due to their lower resist cap. Other than that a decent idea. Keep makin sense
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Originally Posted by Profit
Lets see, unstoppable starts blinking, hit conserve power, unstoppable drops, hit dull pain, eat a blue, keep going.
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It will work everytime if you disengage for just a few seconds (10ish). It will work most of the time even if you do not disengage, although that lucky hit could come in at just the wrong time.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
K, Ill retool a 50 and see how this works. If it works everytime I will be okay with that. With a caveat, this further restricts build structure around invulnerability. Invul is a great set in many ways, but does NOT do well with End Hungry Attack sets. In fact I pair it with Dark over 50% of the time. There are only so many Dark/Invul Brute + Scraps or Invul/Dark Tanks anybody needs. To further say, oh, it is Dark/Invul/Nrg every time? Also, it is not an option for Brutes, the most efficient users of Invul in my opinion, they get no conserve power option. I also think Unstoppable is slightly wasted on Scrappers, due to their lower resist cap. Other than that a decent idea. Keep makin sense
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I do wish Unstoppable on a scrapper would be a bit stronger.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I will point out that Conserve Power isn't STRICTLY needed (but it does help), that sometimes just a couple blues on hand is enough until End. recovery returns.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
K, Ill retool a 50 and see how this works. If it works everytime I will be okay with that. With a caveat, this further restricts build structure around invulnerability. Invul is a great set in many ways, but does NOT do well with End Hungry Attack sets. In fact I pair it with Dark over 50% of the time. There are only so many Dark/Invul Brute + Scraps or Invul/Dark Tanks anybody needs. To further say, oh, it is Dark/Invul/Nrg every time? Also, it is not an option for Brutes, the most efficient users of Invul in my opinion, they get no conserve power option. I also think Unstoppable is slightly wasted on Scrappers, due to their lower resist cap. Other than that a decent idea. Keep makin sense
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I was hoping Conserve Power was going to stop the "Dropping Toggles NOW" problem. I can handle getting back up to the top of the blue bar (usually) but you aint seen a situation go from bad to worse until you are in the midst of a huge battle and half your toggles (including mez prot!) go away...
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I will point out that Conserve Power isn't STRICTLY needed (but it does help), that sometimes just a couple blues on hand is enough until End. recovery returns.
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Eh, I'm usually pretty quick with re-toggling with it only taking me a few seconds, but I suppose not everyone is that quick.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I was hoping Conserve Power was going to stop the "Dropping Toggles NOW" problem. I can handle getting back up to the top of the blue bar (usually) but you aint seen a situation go from bad to worse until you are in the midst of a huge battle and half your toggles (including mez prot!) go away...
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Well my character doesn't have a crashing T9, he is FA, but I run 7 toggles whch takes a while to cast them all.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Eh, I'm usually pretty quick with re-toggling with it only taking me a few seconds, but I suppose not everyone is that quick.
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Unstoppable, Power Surge, etc. Do you think with the recent change to Blasters they will make these crashless as well? How would you feel if they did but lowered their total stats while reducing recharge?