Do you think they will end up making Tier 9 Armor powers crashless too?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-24 24:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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FA has a crash in it's T9 - it's just front-loaded |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Well my character doesn't have a crashing T9, he is FA, but I run 7 toggles whch takes a while to cast them all.
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Don't you mean DA? FA has very few toggles.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Well my character doesn't have a crashing T9, he is FA, but I run 7 toggles whch takes a while to cast them all.
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Two shields, Blazing Aura, Tough, Weave, Combat Jumping, possibly Maneuvers and/or Darkest Night. 7 toggles is quite plausible for a /FA.
It is possible, but I wouldn't expected. A weaker crash, maybe, but a full on crashless tier 9 armor not so much.
I have very limited experience in the matter (having only one real crashing t9 on my /elec armor stalker), but for the most part a crashing armor power seems to do it's job quite well. On said stalker I find myself using it as a panic button on occasion to max out my resists, and it has saved me many times. The crash for the armor power also isn't nearly as much of a detriment as the crash from nukes, since an armor power doesn't attack, immediately draw aggro, or always cause their crash in the middle of a fight. Usually what I do is use Power Surge when things get dicey, and after 3 minutes I back up and rest, letting people know that I am doing so.
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I would hope not. Crashing nukes sucked because they were, in essence, a gamble. Either you kill everything or what's left kills you. And considering how the game is structured, there were things you could plain just never kill in a single shot. Nukes were the WORST use of a crash the game could muster.
Crashing God Mode powers, on the other hand, are the best use of a crash. What these give you is time. In this time, you have the opportunity to kill what's threatening you or at the very least run away. God Mode powers give you extra opportunities to act, they give you leeway for error and they give you more time, and that is INVALUABLE. I would never trade Unstoppable for Strength of Will, just because Strength of Will has never saved my *** in the same way as Unstoppable has. Capping my Brute's resistances to 90% against everything but Psi is a huge benefit over the 60%-ish physical and 30%-ish everything else that I usually have, if that.
One of the most beneficial things this game can do to a character is grant us a significantly larger margin of error and a significantly longer lifespan. I would not trade this for the world. Sure, the crash is dangerous, but it's well worth it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Blue Centurion is overstating the problem, but you're exaggerating how reliable the solution is as well. |
Originally Posted by Profit
Lets see, unstoppable starts blinking, hit conserve power, unstoppable drops, hit dull pain, eat a blue, keep going.
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The truth lies somewhere between these two extremes. Sometimes, the threat that forced you to use Unstoppable will be gone and Dull Pain alone, or Dull Pain plus your teammates, is enough to keep you upright for the ten seconds it's going to take for you to retoggle. Sometimes, the icon starts blinking while you're in the middle of a +4/x8 spawn, and trying to do the strategy you suggested results in instant death.
It also assumes you're saving DP for the crash. That can be a reasonable assumption most of the time, but there are situations where DP is already needed on top of Unstop to survive and will still be recharging for the crash.
Eating luck insps is of course another option, although sometimes, especially on highend builds, you can have more efficient results by eating one luck insp per minute than using Unstoppable and having to use 3 lucks before the crash to stay alive.
Either way, no matter how good you are you will generally have to retoggle (even capped recovery won't guarantee you get a tick of end at the right time), and that is an imcompressible amount of time. I would also argue most players don't pay perfect attention to their buff bar all the time, and getting killed every once in a while by a crash is close to inevitable unless you only use the power once in a blue moon.
I think Unstop has its uses, especially on a SO or light IO build. It's just not without drawbacks.
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That's the whole point. Mitigating or avoiding the crash of the power should not be an option because the crash is the price you pay for the performance. To me, this is essentially betting that you'll be done in three minutes, and if you're not, you lose by default. Or you run away, whichever. It's not really a gamble, since anyone with decent experience with the specific character will know more or less how long a fight will take. This, then, makes it a strategic decision and at most a calculated risk.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I think Unstop has its uses, especially on a SO or light IO build. It's just not without drawbacks.
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Being able to muscle through even extreme danger is one aspect of melee characters I'm not prepared to give up. Yes, it has drawbacks, but for the performance involved, I'll take it. As I said - unlike Nukes, you're actually in control of how effective the power is and what happens when it ends.
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Elude, however, is an exception. It gives massive amounts of defence, most of which is massive overkill, while offering no real form of protection beyond that. Considering I've been killed through Elude more often than through all other God Mode powers combined, I'd say the power needs a few tweaks.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I know how at least one dev feels about them. I don't think we will ever see them go away, but I don't think we will see any more of the old style crashes added to the game. I personally think they were badly designed from the start, and I skip them in most cases. I would have rather have seen a mechanic like the old q-flight on a PB, for those who do not remember it was an ever increasing end cost the longer it was on.
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I think my problem with the big crash tier 9s come from the same place that has me running Brutes 80% of the time. I want to run the guy from the comics that crashes through brick walls and laughs at bullets. That whole "now you are weak as a kitten hah hah" thing does not appeal to me. Yes, i have seen it's use in comics, it is valid. It is also why i build my tabletop RPG characters with as few Dependent NPCs as possible. I prefer the orogin "Orphan raised by space pirates", makes things a lot simpler. No DNPC, no leverage. No weak as a kitten crash, no leverage.
The new Bio Armor does not include a Crashing Tier 9, of any type. If you look at the development of CoH you go from God Mode with hurting crashes, to Willpower with Major Insp buff and mini crash, to no crash. I see it visually as a graph from stupid to reasonable. Thankfully the curve was strong enough to get to reasonable long before CoH goes the way of history.
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They're either going to change all the HP/End crashes to just end crashes (Like the ancillary versions of Unstoppable/Power Surge, and all defense god modes like Overload/Elude etc.) or change them to have Fixed Recharges and half strength crashes (or change them to be possible to perma them with a half strength crash like Light Form).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My guess is that the crashes get reexamined at some point, but I doubt they go away completely. I think its possible we one day see end crashing get reduced to something more like a high -MaxEnd reduction (analogous to Burnout) and health crashing get significantly reduced in strength. But I don't think you'll see crashes disappear completely.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
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Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I don't see them making them crashless, but it's not like the crash is a death sentence for every set.
I stopped taking Power Surge before Energize was added to Electric Armor, but I used to time it well enough that I could hit Power Sink right as it crashed, refilling my end, and then was a quick Aid Self away from mitigating the health crash while the EMP effect had everything in melee range held. Time it right, and your toggles never even drop; Energize just makes it even easier with the endurance discount it provides while your recovery is still shot.
Overload's crash is end-only in Energy Aura, and Energy Drain has a short delay before your end recovers, making it even easier to completely mitigate.
Burnout means you can extend the duration prior to a health crash out to just shy of 6 minutes on the sets that have one, since the health crash is replaced by the new activation (the endurance crash isn't).
IOs usually make these powers skippable, but I wouldn't say they're completely useless - there's an ElA Brute build floating around that has capped resistance to all (including Toxic and Psi) through Power Surge, with an uptime on the power that's upwards of 50% and the ability to mitigate the crash within the set itself as listed before.
Also, RotP and Soul Transfer would end up nerfed to hell and back if they were made to go off even if you were alive. Being able to pull out a 25' radius, autohit PBAoE long duration mag 30 stun or nuke level damage with a pulsing, even-longer-duration mag 4 stun (slot it with -KB proc!) on a 5 minute base recharge might be a bit OP even if you didn't have the 15 second untouchable attached and heal/end recovery components.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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My Electric Armor activated Power Surge... one time, when I was going to fight Infernal or something that wasn't S/L/E based. My CEBR doesn't count.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
I stopped taking Power Surge before Energize was added to Electric Armor, but I used to time it well enough that I could hit Power Sink right as it crashed, refilling my end, and then was a quick Aid Self away from mitigating the health crash while the EMP effect had everything in melee range held. Time it right, and your toggles never even drop; Energize just makes it even easier with the endurance discount it provides while your recovery is still shot.
Overload's crash is end-only in Energy Aura, and Energy Drain has a short delay before your end recovers, making it even easier to completely mitigate. |
Overload is only used by my brute to cap his HP and take his DDR from 52 to 85%. Or if Anti-Matter gets a lucky hit with a debuff.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Just for a self rez I'd agree, but the self aggro drop power looks pretty nice to me...
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So what? Plenty of characters get access to a self rez in their epic pools already and lots of vets have an inherent self rez. I doubt we'll see people lining up to take presence just for the self rez anyway.
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In addition to the problems already mentioned with this, Brutes don't have any way to get Conserve Power. (Brute version of EnM has Superior Conditioning instead of Conserve Power)|
Originally Posted by Profit
Lets see, unstoppable starts blinking, hit conserve power, unstoppable drops, hit dull pain, eat a blue, keep going.
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Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing the crashes lessened, even if only so that all your toggles don't immediately drop. Maybe they could floor your regen and/or recovery, or even recharge and/or damage for a while rather than total loss endurance and possibly health.
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I'd go for it. |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Unstoppable, Power Surge, etc. Do you think with the recent change to Blasters they will make these crashless as well? How would you feel if they did but lowered their total stats while reducing recharge?
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Seems like MoG got good raves for it when they did it for that power, even though I personally prefered the old one but the new one is cool too.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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We can argue exactly how much the old "the game will not be rebalanced around needing Inventions" has to do with NEW content being balanced around Inventions, but what I know for a fact it means is that EXISTING POWERSETS will not be rebalanced to require Inventions. Going with the idea that "IOs usually make these powers skippable" and then changing them into something I won't have a use for but a heavy Inventions build for could use is the very definition of breaking this rule.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
IOs usually make these powers skippable
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I know that's not what you're implying, but I still want to say this because it bears repeating: No set should ever be balanced to function with the expectation that the player will be using a specific Inventions build. A set must work for everybody, including people who don't use Inventions and including people who don't even have access to Inventions. If crashing god modes are useless on heavy Inventions builds, then I'll be over there in the corner crying about crocodile tears about it. They're useful TO ME, and I don't want that taken away from me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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We should definitely change them just because it would irritate Sam! No, heh, but that would be funny. On a (slightly) more serious note I respec'd out of Unstoppable two weeks after I got it, and have never used it again. I was using SOs during that time exclusively. (I used SOs for about a year when I first started.) I ran a lot of Invulnerability in that 1st year (still do) and the power is useless to me in SO and I/O builds. Back then I used an egg timer to monitor my 3 minutes, and was doing everything to milk that power for all I could get out of it. It is the worst min/max power in the game (besides the crashing nuke idea). How can I say this? I hate it, it is a power designed by a hungover idiot on a deadline who thought he knew how to write stuff for video games. It is ill conceived, ill executed, and poorly animated to boot.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I know that's not what you're implying, but I still want to say this because it bears repeating: No set should ever be balanced to function with the expectation that the player will be using a specific Inventions build. A set must work for everybody, including people who don't use Inventions and including people who don't even have access to Inventions. If crashing god modes are useless on heavy Inventions builds, then I'll be over there in the corner crying about crocodile tears about it. They're useful TO ME, and I don't want that taken away from me.
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That's fine that you don't like the power, but that still doesn't justify taking it out. I agree that Unstoppable is not a good "min-max power," but what I look for in the game aren't min-max powers, but rather powers which "feel" good, and Unstoppable certainly does. I almost never use it, myself, partly because of its timer and partly because of its crash, but I still keep it and love it because when I DO use that power, it's awesome. My Invulnerability Brutes aren't terribly sturdy because their builds aren't that great. They're good enough for most stuff, but they can get overwhelmed. And when they are, I fire off Unstoppable and giggle like a schoolgirl while nothing can hurt me.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I respec'd out of Unstoppable two weeks after I got it, and have never used it again. I was using SOs during that time exclusively. (I used SOs for about a year when I first started.) I ran a lot of Invulnerability in that 1st year (still do) and the power is useless to me in SO and I/O builds. Back then I used an egg timer to monitor my 3 minutes, and was doing everything to milk that power for all I could get out of it. It is the worst min/max power in the game (besides the crashing nuke idea). How can I say this? I hate it, it is a power designed by a hungover idiot on a deadline who thought he knew how to write stuff for video games. It is ill conceived, ill executed, and poorly animated to boot.
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When I ran the Stop the Army of Romulus mission a while back, I busted my *** fighting the huge spawns. Finally, when I got to the last spawn that's two EBs and something like 10 bosses, I knew I didn't have even a fraction of the survivability it would take to last through that. So I popped on Unstoppable and wiped the floor with the Keres, with Romulus and with all the Monsters. And I couldn't have felt better about it. That was awesome and I wouldn't trade it for the world.
Also, when I fought Marauder, I was clearly not strong enough to outlast his Unstoppable (his attacks are too strong) nor kill him through it (my attacks weren't strong enough) so I fought the man regularly. I went through almost all my inspirations, got him down in health, he fired off Unstoppable and I waited. I waited a good minute, expending the last of my inspirations before I throw on Unstoppable of my own. For around two minutes, we couldn't hurt each other. Then his unstoppable dropped, his endurance crashed and his resistances went away. At that point, I had a full minute left on mine, full health and full endurance, so I kicked Marauder's *** the remainder of the way. And again, I wouldn't trade this for the world, nor would it have happened without Unstoppable.
I don't try to get maximum use out of my powers. The numbers game isn't the game I signed up for. I use my powers to the extent that I need to and that's just fine. Beyond that, having a power that caps all my resistances is much appreciated. I like these powers for the strength of the survivability they offer, and I WOULD NOT want to have them drop in power. Not at the cost of making them faster, not at the cost of getting rid of the crash.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If they make it crashless, expect a reduction on how much it boosts.
Given they just made nukes crashless, I would guess that tier9 armors are not far away. They want people to take every power in sets.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
If you really want to make the crashing godmodes seem worthless, pick up Archmage or Demonic. Crashless, 1 minute duration, +50% S/L/E/N/F/C defense +30% resistance to all but psi, available to everybody and usually up at least once a mission if you're wading through things (more often with lots of global recharge).
It's also almost a joke to get as a villain, and the reason I never really took Power Surge seriously even when I had it - any time I needed the extra survivability I had Demonic available. If you do take Power Surge or Unstoppable it's another great way to cover the crash, though - for those few times when you can't finish the mob off in 1 minute.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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As with most things, I'm not against revisiting crashing god mode powers, but what I DO NOT WANT is for them to stop being god modes. Mess with their stats all you want, so long as I know that when I turn one on, I won't die. The rest is immaterial. But I'm not interested in trading buff strength for "utility," especially if that's balanced around people's bloated stats from Inventions builds.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yeah Sam, I see your point. However, I have been running Invulnerability for 5 years without a tier 9 power. You can take that as a referendum on 1) How much i like the set 2) How closely that set fits my idea of supers or 3) How bad that tier 9 is. Or any combo. But it pains me to have no useful (to me) tier 9 in my chosen power set. Again, that is on SO builds and I/O builds both.
Look at it from my perspective - it would pain me to lose a power I like very much in order for you to have a power you like. It's not a fair trade as far as I'm concerned. If the power should be improved, it should be improved within the context of what it is, not tossed away and replaced with something that works very differently.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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From your perspective it is indeed clear, and any change would be unfair. From my perspective I have been playing a set for 5 years without a tier 9 that is worth as much as the tier 1 power in the set to me. That has never felt fair. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Look at it from my perspective - it would pain me to lose a power I like very much in order for you to have a power you like. It's not a fair trade as far as I'm concerned. If the power should be improved, it should be improved within the context of what it is, not tossed away and replaced with something that works very differently.
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In a related story I never played Blasters with a crashing Nuke (aftyer many failed experiments) for exactly the same reason. Useless to me. Thankfully the Devs saw fit to make major changes.
I hope the Devs come up with a solution neither of us "Hate" even if neither of us gets "everything we want"
I think they should be looked at. Even if it was just a less drastic crash. Also, some tier 9s losing all hp as well, while others just lose HP...not fair at all. It would be like if some Nukes drained all your hp too...even if it can seem that way already!