Convert all IO sets to attuned
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-20 08:54 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Oh, those? I used to just beat up mooks for those.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
He's talking about the minor INF sink from buying SOs every 5 levels.
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My first thought was "how would they exemp" since I'm one of those who uses mid-level IOs. So I looked it up and, assuming the wiki is correct, it appears that Attuned IOs can be better for exemping than regular IOs:
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If I read that right, a set with a range from 25 to 50 would retain the set bonuses down to level 22 even if your IOs are "level 50" because your character is level 50. So...yeah. I'd be cool with it. I don't really see it happening, to be honest, nor am I too sure how it would affect the AH, but at least on the surface, it seems like it could be a simpler system. I'd be pretty adamant about wanting them to still be craftable though; certainly wouldn't want to see IOs only be available through the Paragon Market (I know the OP never said anything about that. I'm just thinking that that's ultimately the source for all the Attuned IOs now, except Overwhelming Force. You can get them on the AH, but somebody initially had to get them from the Market).
| Attuned Enhancements change their level based on the character's current Combat Level so the set bonuses will only shut off if the character exemplars more than three levels below the minimum level allowed for the Enhancement. |
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20m is chump change for anyone who plays a 'normal' amount and sells their drops, no marketeering required.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
If that is your sole reason..its a crap one. What about all those people who DONT want to play the market (since you know..this is an mmo, not monopoly) then get bent over backwards paying say..20 mil for red fortunes, just cause some rich fool has decided to go and buy up all those recipes?
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also your paranoia about an eeebil manipulator "buying up" all those recipes is uninformed fantasy. If they go for 20 million (and unless they've EXPLODED since I dabbled in the set a year back, they don't, not even close- I was selling crafted IOs for around 5m) the thing allowing that price point is player demand, not market manipulation.
In any case, you are not the arbiter of the value of my reasons.
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| And yes..I know you will just make the argument that no one is forced to play the market. But if that is the case..no one is FORCED to try to rip other players off, even if it is fake money. |
If a price is too high, the item will sit there unsold.
A market transaction is a two player exchange- without a buyer, the seller goes begging.
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The reason market IOs are attuned is to make them more useful/accessible to those willing to purchase them. To be honest, I don't really see them making all IOs attuned either, no matter how many headaches it would eliminate. Reduces the appeal of the attuned market ones.|
Originally Posted by Crystalline
I'd be pretty adamant about wanting them to still be craftable though; certainly wouldn't want to see IOs only be available through the Paragon Market (I know the OP never said anything about that. I'm just thinking that that's ultimately the source for all the Attuned IOs now, except Overwhelming Force. You can get them on the AH, but somebody initially had to get them from the Market).
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I'm really just on the "make SOs static" side of things. Don't need to eliminate TOs or DOs. SOs don't need to get any stronger as you level. No arguments about screwing up the combat balance that's already in place. Just make them static.
You buy a Damage SO, it gives you a 33% Damage bonus for that power. It remains 33% indefinitely. You don't have to buy another from out leveling it. Level 30-50 IOs are already better then 33%. Level 20 IOs are better than DOs and accessible before you can purchase SOs. Only conflict arises at level 25 IOs, which people only make now so they don't have to keep buying SOs over and over again anyway. They're technically weaker than SOs at +0 level difference.
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It's kind of like a tree branching system.|
Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
The reason market IOs are attuned is to make them more useful/accessible to those willing to purchase them. To be honest, I don't really see them making all IOs attuned either, no matter how many headaches it would eliminate. Reduces the appeal of the attuned market ones.
I'm really just on the "make SOs static" side of things. Don't need to eliminate TOs or DOs. SOs don't need to get any stronger as you level. No arguments about screwing up the combat balance that's already in place. Just make them static. You buy a Damage SO, it gives you a 33% Damage bonus for that power. It remains 33% indefinitely. You don't have to buy another from out leveling it. Level 30-50 IOs are already better then 33%. Level 20 IOs are better than DOs and accessible before you can purchase SOs. Only conflict arises at level 25 IOs, which people only make now so they don't have to keep buying SOs over and over again anyway. They're technically weaker than SOs at +0 level difference. |
Like you said, they won't make regular IOs attuned because that would eliminate the appeal of purchasing attuned IOs with paragon points.
They won't make SOs static because that lessens the appeal of IOs and therefore IO licenses plus all the other nifty things like Enhancement Boosters.
Removing TOs and DOs without a lot of other sporking with inf sell/buy rates of NPCs and drop rates removes a source of inf for those with no access to IOs/market and increases the frustration of affording SOs.
One simply can't mess with one branch without shaking the whole tree. A reworking of the entire loot system could be a good thing but you'd need to look at the whole not just the part that's convenient for you.
Other than having never heard of anyone buying an invention license so they can make regular IOs, I don't see anything you said that conflicts with anything I've said. As bad of an idea as it is, if they're static like regular IOs, you could use enhancement boosters on SOs anyway.
I'm not for removing TOs and DOs. Has nothing to do with INF, it creates a balance issue. Having attacks that do 66-99% extra damage at level 5 would wreck enemies. I'd like for TOs and DOs to be static too, but that's not my fight here. That change would sort of be implied.
The whole point of reworking drop rates and vender prices would be to make sure whatever it is you're buying remains costly, but not impossible to attain. But I didn't say that in the post you quoted, because I already said it in the last one.
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It would wreck enemies for about 30 seconds, and then you'd be level 6... and still on your first run through DFB... where you'd be getting more of those SOs that are supposed to be creating some sort of a balance issue. |
Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
I'm not for removing TOs and DOs. Has nothing to do with INF, it creates a balance issue. Having attacks that do 66-99% extra damage at level 5 would wreck enemies.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Unless you turn off your XP, you're not really getting enough to matter at a time where it will completely break things. Though that is something I hadn't considered, I will admit.
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There are plenty of Badgers and Crafters who are Prems that craft regular IO's for the badges they get on their portable workbench.|
Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
Other than having never heard of anyone buying an invention license so they can make regular IOs.
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Portable_Workbench
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On a good run, I can get enough to fill what few slots I have at those levels. If that's not enough to matter, then it doesn't matter.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
Unless you turn off your XP, you're not really getting enough to matter at a time where it will completely break things. Though that is something I hadn't considered, I will admit.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I'd like to see them add attuned versions of IOs and SOs that drop alongside the existing ones, actually. They'd be as rare as purples, and provide a chance at extremely good drops throughout the character's lifespan, not just at 50.
- Attuned SOs would give Frees and low-tier Premiums a "Very Rare" type of drop they can get excited about
- Those with invention or auction house access would get a chance at attuned IOs through in-game means
- As an inf sink, it's another source of items that can potentially have multiple millions in market fees per piece
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Returning players that had crafting unlocked through the Reward system, not by buying a license.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
There are plenty of Badgers and Crafters who are Prems that craft regular IO's for the badges they get on their portable workbench.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Portable_Workbench |
I still think there's a difference between getting a few drops that you rapidly out-level (which you wouldn't given a global, static, SO system and was my cause for concern), and the ability to just buy them at that level. If there really isn't an issue with lower level characters having SOs then I wouldn't be against TOs and DOs being replaced, but it's still not what I'm supporting.
My argument for SOs being static is to fix a problem without needing new tech (like the formerly mentioned system that would search your slots for TO/DO/SO and replace the enhancements you have with better ones of the same type). Making static SOs rare doesn't fix anything. It would be cool, particularly the attuned IO version, but people who aren't using IOs until 50, if ever, are still having to replace their enhancements over and over again. SOs in particular 6 times with no equipment growth.
If I only started playing a week ago, I wouldn't put up with that. I can't think of a single other game that asks the player to throw their in-game currency away just to maintain their stats.
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Nearly every fantasy game (not just MMO) has gear wear. You have to spend your in-game money to repair your gear, which is maintaining your stats, not improving them. Replacing SOs is similar to gear wear.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
I can't think of a single other game that asks the player to throw their in-game currency away just to maintain their stats.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I'll conceit that point. But given no growth on the equipment, it means people that use SOs are wearing the same gear from level 25 to level 50 and just repairing it over and over again.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Nearly every fantasy game (not just MMO) has gear wear. You have to spend your in-game money to repair your gear, which is maintaining your stats, not improving them. Replacing SOs is similar to gear wear.
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And where's your datamining evidence that proves all Prem badgers that collect crafting bages are players that have unlocked IO's thru the Paragon Reward system?|
Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
Returning players that had crafting unlocked through the Reward system, not by buying a license.
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Please provide a link to it so we can confirm it's accuracy.
The truth is you have no idea whether or not the people buying the IO licenses are crafting IO's for badges unless you know them personally. I know several who craft that believe its cheaper for them to spend $4 bucks a month on the IO and Market access than $15 bucks on a sub.
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A certain Sci-Fi game that recently to go F2P hybrid due to financial tribbles not only requires it's players to spend in game currency to maintain and upgrade equipment, it also has recently implemented a new piece of equipment that players have to spend in-game currency, in-game resources that takes a long amount of time acquire, build a base that can construct that particular equipment (taking even more time and resources), AND $20 bucks, per character.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Nearly every fantasy game (not just MMO) has gear wear. You have to spend your in-game money to repair your gear, which is maintaining your stats, not improving them. Replacing SOs is similar to gear wear.
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I'm not arguing with you about numbers that neither of us know with any real certainty. You know several. I know no one that buys them. Only people that, in conversations about it, will tell anyone asking about them to avoid them entirely as a waste of money. I don't have a preference one way or the other.
But if people are buying invention licenses for badges and portable invention tables, then that subset isn't buying them to skip SOs. How large is the group that is buying invention licenses specifically to skip SOs? I'm guessing not many, and certainly not enough to warrant turning people off to the repetitive, unfun pause in the action replacing SOs for the 5th time causes.
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The improvement to the enhancement bonuses as the level increases is the growth.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
I'll conceit that point. But given no growth on the equipment, it means people that use SOs are wearing the same gear from level 25 to level 50 and just repairing it over and over again.
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No. That's level growth. The SOs actually get weaker after you level up. This is most notable with things like endurance reduction, recharge reduction, accuracy, endurance modification, things that don't grow when you level.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The improvement to the enhancement bonuses as the level increases is the growth.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
I'm guessing not many
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That's the problem with guessing. One is seldom right. That's why it's called guessing. It requires assumptions based on facts not in evidence.
There are plenty of players that craft basic IO's and dump them on the market for 1 inf each. Some are VIP's, some are Prem's, some have IO's and the market permanently unlocked, some don't, and some of us with multiple accounts are all of the above.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
I'll conceit that point. But given no growth on the equipment, it means people that use SOs are wearing the same gear from level 25 to level 50 and just repairing it over and over again.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
No. That's level growth. The SOs actually get weaker after you level up. This is most notable with things like endurance reduction, recharge reduction, accuracy, endurance modification, things that don't grow when you level.
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Sorry you can't have it both ways. Either SO's are this games version of equipment that has to be replaced as one levels up, or they are the same piece of equipment that has to be "repaired" and "improved" as one levels and the result is the increased bonus.
Yes you can, because most RPGs do. You level up and get stronger and you get better gear to get stronger.
You slot an enhancement. That's your gear. You slot additional enhancements to stronger. That's your gear growth. Enhancements don't drop enough anymore in regular play to just slot what you get so you have to buy them. That's maintenance. Going to a trainer to get new moves and buying new enhancements for newly awarded slots is a pause in the action meant to stop players from going directly to max level in one sitting.
Replacing everything you have to maintain the senselessly bungeeing stats they provide isn't anything. It's not maintenance. It's not growth. It's barely even an INF sink.
Regarding IOs, I have to apologize for allowing you to rope me into this argument. The only issue with IOs, superior after level 30 anyway compared to SOs, are level 25 IOs. Where was the issue? People that buy invention licenses and play from 22 to 27 then stop? Because after 27 the IOs you can equip are better than SOs anyway. And anything before 22 to 27 and IOs are better than TOs and DOs.
Things this would break:
Enhancement Boosters. These currently work with invention origin IOs but not with attuned IOs.
Exemplar builds. Yes, the set bonuses persist throughout all levels, but an attuned enhancement on a level 50 character provides level 50 enhancement bonuses no matter what level you're exemplared to. This is fine for 30+ content where it has no effect. However, for other content, level 50 enhancement bonuses will get scaled down, when level 42 enhancement bonuses might not. With careful building, you can get maximum enhancement bonuses in the powers you will have when exemplared down and good set bonuses in the powers you won't have.
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But you either have to replace that gear with better more improved stats or you have to replace/upgrade the skills. That is to say, a weapon might have a specified number of damage points it deals in conjunction with your stats. That's replaced when a better weapon that has a higher value of damage becomes available that you can put your resources into improving over a weaker old weapon.|
Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
Yes you can, because most RPGs do. You level up and get stronger and you get better gear to get stronger.
You slot an enhancement. That's your gear. You slot additional enhancements to stronger. That's your gear growth. |
Conversely, for static skills that perform a certain way, those are replaced by newer skills with higher value effects.
There should always be an avenue of upgrading, modifying AND replacing *along with* increasing in level and obtaining new skills.
That's kind of an attribute of RPG video games, the micromanagement of a character's skills, stats and level.
That said, from a previous post, I wasn't accusing you of wanting to rid the game of TO and DO, just adding that to the overall explanation of my post as it retains to enhancements as a whole that travels down from the freebie player who only has regular droppable ehnahcements up to the VIP who's got attuned and +5 IOs.
while it would be undeniably convenient for buyers, it would stink for suppliers & have the effect of eroding market complexity, and thus interest.
/unsigned
And yes..I know you will just make the argument that no one is forced to play the market. But if that is the case..no one is FORCED to try to rip other players off, even if it is fake money.
I think it might be a good idea..and remove the annoyance of getting a good drop, then seeing your at lvl 37 or 46 or whatever, and because of that, it is not as good as it could be, or worth as much if sold.