A tricky but maybe interesting way to tame Phantom Army would have been to have some of their powers summon an invisible psuedo-pet that performs a ToHit roll against the target's Psi defense. If the psuedo-pet attack misses that army member is Phased for 3 seconds due to being "Disbelieved" by the target. Only some of the attacks in the PA's arsenal would trigger this. The army would still be a good tank, but there would be much more throttle to it.
*puts on silly hat*
So...lets roleplay...I am now a Dev (ok guys go ahead and laugh it out)
My biggest issue with this set being ported to Doms is how it works.
I think that it needs to play nice with Domination. Yes there are other sets that don't benefit much for Domination but I think this set needs a few changes if it's going to be ported over.
1. Keep us engaged
2. Have some sort of utility besides Spectral Terror and PA Pre 32.
Bare with me here I am going on shaky memory.
It seemed that Synapse's issue with it seemed that it wouldn't play nice with Domination and that it didn't mesh well the Dom secondaries I believe.
Hawkward (:P) felt that it would be Overpowered on Doms and that it wouldn't mesh well with secondaries either.
Also both of them mentioned something that a lot of us agree on. The set is balanced in a very lopsided kind of way. I personally believe that we can make changes to almost everything in the set besides PA and Phantasm...
None of that matters though because the majority of us want the set the way it is on controllers...but I don't think people would object to much if Phantom Army and Phan were left untouched.
The set will probably not be ported unless it is changed...but I think that Illusion needs some changes anyway.
Plant and Earth are pretty good at keeping you untouched anyway to be perfectly honest.
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I think when you say "the army would still be a good tank" you run afoul of the fact that the devs, Arbiter Hawk at least, doesn't want to give an indestructible tank to a Dominator. If that's not a problem, the PA aren't a problem as is. If it is a problem, anything that preserves the PA as an effective and indestructible tank would still be a problem, no matter how many other limitations you give it.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
A tricky but maybe interesting way to tame Phantom Army would have been to have some of their powers summon an invisible psuedo-pet that performs a ToHit roll against the target's Psi defense. If the psuedo-pet attack misses that army member is Phased for 3 seconds due to being "Disbelieved" by the target. Only some of the attacks in the PA's arsenal would trigger this. The army would still be a good tank, but there would be much more throttle to it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think when you say "the army would still be a good tank" you run afoul of the fact that the devs, Arbiter Hawk at least, doesn't want to give an indestructible tank to a Dominator. If that's not a problem, the PA aren't a problem as is. If it is a problem, anything that preserves the PA as an effective and indestructible tank would still be a problem, no matter how many other limitations you give it.
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Let me clarify: I would have included a Disbelieve mechanic if I had written this spell at the beginning of time, and only if we were forced to keep the Invulnerable aspect. A chance for the army to Phase on a missed Psi roll, at least, would create a threshold of risk where all 3 Phantoms could be inactivated at the same time due to a skill check. What we have now is a power that is active essentially 100% of the time once you reach the right Recharge threshold. Recharge isn't a contested attribute in most situations where the army is used, so the results are very undynamic. There also currently aren't a lot of good ways to make an enemy "immune" to Phantom Army like they are to other Control powers, without also making the enemy ignore Taunts, or letting them be hit by a one-off exotic mechanic. Having a control sometimes fail is an inherent aspect of their design, and Phantom Army doesn't do that nearly enough, IMO.
If I had the authority to make the army no longer invulernable, they would have the stats of the new Jack Frost. 25% Defense to all, 35% Defense to Fire/Cold (replaced with Energy/Psi). This would stack with Group Invisibility. A Dominator could soft cap them with some effort, but you'd have to remain within a distance of them for them to keep it.
More importantly, the army wouldn't get a free pass against every enemy that normally penalizes pets or adds, which is IMO is the truly egregious element of "Invulnerable," not just the not dying part.
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It also has an immutable target cap of three.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Let me clarify: I would have included a Disbelieve mechanic if I had written this spell at the beginning of time, and only if we were forced to keep the Invulnerable aspect. A chance for the army to Phase on a missed Psi roll, at least, would create a threshold of risk where all 3 Phantoms could be inactivated at the same time due to a skill check. What we have now is a power that is active essentially 100% of the time once you reach the right Recharge threshold. Recharge isn't a contested attribute in most situations where the army is used, so the results are very undynamic. There also currently aren't a lot of good ways to make an enemy "immune" to Phantom Army like they are to other Control powers, without also making the enemy ignore Taunts, or letting them be hit by a one-off exotic mechanic. Having a control sometimes fail is an inherent aspect of their design, and Phantom Army doesn't do that nearly enough, IMO.
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The notion that there's no way to offer "protection" to the kind of control offered by the PA is an interesting one. I'm not sure how noteworthy it is though, given the fact that the PA are not under control and therefore can simply fail to engage a desired target (which is why they generate optimal results only when they are used in environments where the number of targets that need to be controlled is very small - ideally one - or that no specific targets need to be controlled in general.
To put it another way, unless you're tanking a single AV the PA are not considered reliable control in the first place. Its just that that unreliability comes in a different way than with most controls.
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| More importantly, the army wouldn't get a free pass against every enemy that normally penalizes pets or adds, which is IMO is the truly egregious element of "Invulnerable," not just the not dying part. |
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| To put it another way, unless you're tanking a single AV the PA are not considered reliable control in the first place. Its just that that unreliability comes in a different way than with most controls. |
I think it's possible to argue it a number of different ways. Phantom Army is a definite judgment call. Determining what it should be capable of is difficult because even if it was a control limited to a single target, there are limits, which is why a single target Hold is Mag 3 and not, say, Mag 30 so it could more easily control a AV. I have sometimes heard the argument that what really matter is reward rate, and big targets don't provide as many rewards, but I don't really agree with that POV personally, because I consider clearing a big target "reward" in itself, if this game is to be anything but a farm.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
What would be an example of such an enemy, that doesn't involve bugged behavior or mechanics? Are you referring to things like critters with invincibility auras and PBAoE heals?
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I'm referring to AVs like Ghost Widow who heal off anything in vicinity and other enemies to which PA is immune. Modern AVs don't tend to be as weighted in favor of PA but some of the older ones seemed almost created with it specifically in mind.
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Its an edge case, but I don't know why it would be an especially egregious problem since high defense buffing neutralizes those abilities to almost the same degree and are far more common than the PA.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm referring to AVs like Ghost Widow who heal off anything in vicinity and other enemies to which PA is immune. Modern AVs don't tend to be as weighted in favor of PA but some of the older ones seemed almost created with it specifically in mind.
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Phantom Army is the signature power of Illusion Control; if it was removed it wouldn't really be the Illusion that people are asking for. You'd be better off making an entirely new set than pretending you are giving Doms Illusion while giving them a version that's "Illusion" in name only.
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You'll never get a degree in Mad Science with that attitude.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Because "why not" is not a good reason for doing anything. It isn't even a particularly mediocre reason for doing anything.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its an edge case, but I don't know why it would be an especially egregious problem since high defense buffing neutralizes those abilities to almost the same degree and are far more common than the PA.
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True. High defense pets are relatively rare though. Until recently none of the Controller pets had any defense. Speaking of...
While I have your attention, can I ask a small favor?
Jack Frost now has 25% defense to most, 35% to Fire/Cold. The Earth pet has resistances that range from 40% (Smash) to 100% (Psi). Which do you think is more durable in most fights? What about after adding defense sets to Jack to get his defenses into the 40% range? There seems to be a lot of disagreement about whether Jack Frost is in the same class as Stoney. Are they generally pretty close now that Jack Frost has been buffed?
I can answer that myself! :3
Stoney can take more damage but he's more of a Tanker.
Jack is now very close to the survival level of Stoney but not quite there. Jack Frost is more a Brute. He can dish out some decent damage and he's VERY aggressive. He's also far less likely to run out of end unlike stoney who loses end in a matter of moments due to Seismic Smash.
I'll let Arcana take it from here :P.
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Animated Stone has resistances to:|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
True. High defense pets are relatively rare though. Until recently none of the Controller pets had any defense. Speaking of...
While I have your attention, can I ask a small favor? Jack Frost now has 25% defense to most, 35% to Fire/Cold. The Earth pet has resistances that range from 40% (Smash) to 100% (Psi). Which do you think is more durable in most fights? What about after adding defense sets to Jack to get his defenses into the 40% range? There seems to be a lot of disagreement about whether Jack Frost is in the same class as Stoney. Are they generally pretty close now that Jack Frost has been buffed? |
Smash 40%
Lethal 50%
Fire/Cold/Negative/Energy 60%
Toxic 80%
Psi 100%
Jack Frost has Resist/Defense:
Smash/Lethal/Energy/Negative: 0/25
Fire: 10%/35
Cold: 60%/35
Toxic/Psi: Nada.
So, who is better:
Smash: Ice takes 26% less damage in average.
Lethal: Ice takes 11% less damage in average.
Fire: Ice takes 50% less damage in average.
Cold: Ice takes 78% less damage in average.
Energy/Negative: Stone takes 10% less damage in average.
Toxic: Stone takes 80% less damage in average.
Psionic: Stone takes 100% less damage.
... Do pets have a resist damage cap or can they actually reach 100% resist? Thats something I actually have no data at hand for...
Note thats averages there. Jack being relliant on defense means sometimes he may get lucky, sometimes he may get unlucky. But in average, he takes less damage than Stoney.
[Insert to-hit disclaimers about defense here]
Edit to add: Jack also has a version of Chilling Embrace. This means he can debuff enemies to attack less often, therefore slow down incoming damage by up to 50%.
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I don't know about controller pets but Mastermind Pets definitely have a resistance cap. I think it's 90% but that's going off of memory so it may be lower.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
... Do pets have a resist damage cap or can they actually reach 100% resist? Thats something I actually have no data at hand for...
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In my opinion they are pretty comparable now in terms of damage mitigation. In terms of being tanking pets specifically stoney has an edge in status protection: jack is only protected from sleep and stun, while stoney is also essentially immune to holds and immobilize and has decent knockback protection.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
True. High defense pets are relatively rare though. Until recently none of the Controller pets had any defense. Speaking of...
While I have your attention, can I ask a small favor? Jack Frost now has 25% defense to most, 35% to Fire/Cold. The Earth pet has resistances that range from 40% (Smash) to 100% (Psi). Which do you think is more durable in most fights? What about after adding defense sets to Jack to get his defenses into the 40% range? There seems to be a lot of disagreement about whether Jack Frost is in the same class as Stoney. Are they generally pretty close now that Jack Frost has been buffed? |
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Yea its 90%.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I don't know about controller pets but Mastermind Pets definitely have a resistance cap. I think it's 90% but that's going off of memory so it may be lower.
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'Why not' isn't the reason in that example. The reason is that it would make players happy. Which is really the first question that needs to be answered in any change. And where the answer is 'no' you better have a darn good reason for doing it anyway.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Because "why not" is not a good reason for doing anything. It isn't even a particularly mediocre reason for doing anything.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Mmm, no. "is it balanced" is the FIRST question that really needs to be answered in any change. Player happiness is important but it takes a backseat to balance most times.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
'Why not' isn't the reason in that example. The reason is that it would make players happy. Which is really the first question that needs to be answered in any change. And where the answer is 'no' you better have a darn good reason for doing it anyway.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Psionic: Stone takes 100% less damage.
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Thanks for the analysis. Jack Frost actually has 25% defense to Psionic though, so I guess he's a bit more competitive than at first glance. Here are his stats, taken from City of Data:
+60% Res(Cold) for 10.25s
+10% Res(Fire) for 10.25s
+25% Smashing, Lethal, Energy, Negative, Psionic, AOE Defense for 10.25s
+35% Fire, Cold Defense for 10.25s
My Ice builds have been adding the two +5 defense pet IOs, and I take Manuevers, which all together add around +14 additional defense, which I suppose is a good strategy given how decent the base values are. I actually didn't realize jack had AoE defense until just a few minutes ago when I copied the data.
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Yeah my Earth Dominator has both the resistance IOs in Stony for an extra 20% resistance |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
My Ice builds have been adding the two +5 defense pet IOs, and I take Manuevers, which all together add around +14 additional defense, which I suppose is a good strategy given how decent the base values are. I actually didn't realize jack had AoE defense until just a few minutes ago when I copied the data.
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Both are very good tanks for pets, but I'd say Stoney is more reliable. Jack can be downed with some (un)lucky hits.
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Lots of things will make me happy. That's also not a particularly interesting reason to do anything. But you are incorrect about the reason given in the post I quoted, which I will quote this time in its entirety:|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
'Why not' isn't the reason in that example. The reason is that it would make players happy. Which is really the first question that needs to be answered in any change. And where the answer is 'no' you better have a darn good reason for doing it anyway.
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In response to Arcana - The set is already in the game and as pointed out it's not leading to masses of rewards so why not give it to the only other AT that shares the primary? Even engaging two spawn at once is not going to yield crazy rewards since there are only two other mass controls that illusion has to allow doms to engage a second spawn: one is a long recharge PBAoE hold and the other is an unreliable pet fear. Quite frankly this is low hanging fruit that would satisfy the playerbase and have next to no major impact beyond seeing more Illusion players. Not sure if that would cause some sort of server load problem, but I can't see it being any worse than MMs are currently. Of course, I'm in the proliferate everything camp, so take that for what it's worth. |
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Sigh. Another round of proliferation hysteria, so soon?
Phantom Army is not overpowered because it comes with a price. The price you pay for having Phantom Army is being stuck with an otherwise Roll tier primary, and not being a brute.
Now, if the devs decide they don't like Illusion Control being 1 great power, a couple decent powers, and everything else garbage, that's fine. But that's not a proliferation problem, and it's not a dominator problem. It's a set problem, and PA should be evenly dealt with across both archetypes.
And, as long as the devs remember that modest reductions in the great power must be matched by much larger increases in the poor powers, to account for substitution effects, I'd be okay with that.
Well considering the main issue with Illusion on Dominator's seems to be that everybody realizes the ability to abuse an "unaffected tank" on a damage dealing character is unfair. Seeing the many solutions that you all have posted I've got one more idea for you guys to kick around.
What if they gave PA a decent amount of HP to make them survivable as tanks, because that is their purpose in a control set. However they added a similar mechanic to the one in Masterminds where they shared damage. Initially it sounds bad but keep in mind that this shared damage would be "illusion" damage that would naturally heal itself in time, I imagine this heal would only affect you because your technically not being hit, it's merely an illusion that you're hurt. Keep in mind the Phantom Army would still be unaffected by buffs.
So over all you'd have a 3 tanks and yourself sharing damage.
Main things to realize
1) You take 25% of incoming damage since your sharing damage, but considering that your taking very little damage elsewhere because of the aggro that PA is holding this doesn't seem that unfair. Essentially it's like having a shield that gives you 75% resistance to all damage types.
2) The damage you take via Phantom Army WILL heal back!
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I think a Controller can deal more damage with Phantom Army than a Dom can.
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Originally Posted by Most_Amazing
Well considering the main issue with Illusion on Dominator's seems to be that everybody realizes the ability to abuse an "unaffected tank" on a damage dealing character is unfair. Seeing the many solutions that you all have posted I've got one more idea for you guys to kick around.
What if they gave PA a decent amount of HP to make them survivable as tanks, because that is their purpose in a control set. However they added a similar mechanic to the one in Masterminds where they shared damage. Initially it sounds bad but keep in mind that this shared damage would be "illusion" damage that would naturally heal itself in time, I imagine this heal would only affect you because your technically not being hit, it's merely an illusion that you're hurt. Keep in mind the Phantom Army would still be unaffected by buffs. So over all you'd have a 3 tanks and yourself sharing damage. Main things to realize 1) You take 25% of incoming damage since your sharing damage, but considering that your taking very little damage elsewhere because of the aggro that PA is holding this doesn't seem that unfair. Essentially it's like having a shield that gives you 75% resistance to all damage types. 2) The damage you take via Phantom Army WILL heal back! |
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I dunno. A lot depends on exactly how much damage PA actually does, I can't find it anywhere. Even then, a lot depends on the target. Against a single hard target maybe, though a lot of that "damage" will be through the 'Troller debuffing their resistance and regeneration. Against a mass of soft targets it's no contest, the Dom would win hands down. Illusion has pitiful tools for damaging large spawns, while Doms have 10 and 16 target AoE's. Even against a single hard target, a Dom with enough recharge and, say, Drain Psyche and temp powers could probably debuff their regen enough to kill them.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
I think a Controller can deal more damage with Phantom Army than a Dom can.
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I think the fact that Illusion hasn't been proliferated has more to do with the Devs wishing they had never made Illusion in the first place rather than them necessarily thinking that it would be overpowered on Doms. Giving the players anything that can't be countered is a bad idea, and invulnerable henchmen pretty much top the list of dangerous ideas.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.