They won't trash bases though. People have had years to build them up, there are some truly impressive creations out there and the studio has pretty much said they don't want to upset players by flushing all that work down the tubes.
Love it or hate it, the old base system is, at least for the time being, here to stay, along with all of the implications that brings.
Honestly, I have the feeling if 'personal housing' ever becomes a thing it'll be an either/or thing. Either you have a lair or you have a supergroup, but not both.
If data storage was the issue, maybe you can get an account wide lair. Instead of one for every character you got.
Also make em use existing maps like a 5th column cave or something. Dont let it be FULLY customizable.
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Eureka! That explains why he kept inviting all those annoying kids to his team; he needed filler members to create his own supergroup.|
Originally Posted by Kirsten
Maybe Bats had a coalition with the JL...
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It all makes sense now
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Personal Lair:
You can sell these in Paragon Market in SEVERAL ways:
SMALL LAIR:
Entrance
1 Small "workshop"
1 Enhancement Bin
2 Salvage Bins
1 Inspiration Holder
1 Crafting Table
MAX DECORATIVE: 100
800 PP
MEDIUM LAIR:
Entrance
1 Small TP Room 6 beacons max/1 Hacked TP
1 Medium "workshop"
2 Enhancement Bins
4 Salvage Bins
1 Inspiration Holder
1 Crafting Table
MAX DECORATIVE: 200
1200 PP
SUPER LAIR
Entrance
1 Medium TP Room - 12 Beacons MAX/2 Hacked TPs
1 Medium "workshop"
3 Enhancement bins
6 Salvage bins
2 Inspiration Holders
1 Crafting Table
1 Empowerment station
MAX DECORATIVE: 500
1600 PP
You can choose from several prefab "layouts" of current rooms available in game; Crey, Cave, Office, etc etc... also utilize current "design" feature to allow for arcane, tech, etc rooms.
These would be account wide and NOT Hero/Villain Specific. So truly account wide sharing of your stored items etc. Obviously if you had a mixture of Villain and Hero TP zones you could only access the zones which your alignment allows.
Or something very similar. This is what I would like to see
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Quote:
I'm not arguing with you here (really). It's just that... the thing I cannot reconcile in my head is: (a) Paragon Studios, on the one hand, priding itself on its relationship with the community, how well they listen and are responsive to what players want, etc, etc., etc. VERSUS (b) How not a week goes by that some player doesn't bring up some much desired base related improvement (with offline sg invites and personal lairs leading the pack). Even the players I disagree with the most say things like "Believe me, I agree more base love is wanted/needed" all the time.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The devs haven't been putting resources into bases because
a. It's a fragile legacy feature whose creator doesn't work for the company anymore. b. And players have shown themselves to be determined (for the past 6-7 years) to use SG's/bases as solo content which is contrary to how the devs intended them to be used as group content. |
Apparently, Paragon Studios is more than prepared to deal with this player inquiry in the long term with cute "Jenga on fire" responses. I guess that's better than saying you will do stuff and not following through... but not by much. It's still pretty much turning your back on a community (a community made small from dev neglect... not because of a lack of player interest).
Sometimes things are hard. Sometimes you have a mess and you need to either clean it up or you need to do something else better. If, that is, you really intend to be responsive to your player base at all.
I know and I get that there is a profitability angle to consider. But then I wonder about the payoff of say the work involved with another (ghost town) Praetoria zone versus something like personal lairs. Why would this stuff keep coming up from the players if nobody wanted it?
The next time I have to sit through a Summit session and listen to a dev bragging about how well they are attuned to player desires I'm going to grab that rotten tomato I brought along, yell "BASES", and fling it. Ok that is just wishful thinking... probably just as wishful a thing as personal lairs. Gotta go. My Jenga pieces are on fire!
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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It would work well, especialy with alignment changes. You can take you "lair" with you!
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Originally Posted by Bullet Barrage
How is this different from having a personal SG for your toons?
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I think you are very confused in equating "Devs responding to the community and their desires" with "being able to accomplish goals realistically".
The simple fact of the matter is that they can promise you the world but practically they can do very little to the actual system. It's a cobbled together spaghetti mess of code where changing even the slightest thing could mean breaking not just the base system but the game.
They are being cute when they say things like jenga on fire but at the same time they're being brutally honest. This is a system with little to no documentation and while they're trying to reverse engineer it's been clear for YEARS that doing so is an incredibly intensive and laborious process and potentially not even the right way to go about it if it even CAN be reverse engineered.
So this isn't them being untrue to their word, this isn't them lying, this isn't them ignoring the player's wishes. They understand that we would LOVE to have new base stuff and a functional, working base system with new goodies added now and again. They're trying. They're working on it. But trying to pin it against them because they're having to work with a mess they inherited and paint it as if it's because they're not really doing their job and just ignoring what we want? That's just ridiculous.
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I didn't think you were, and would you be surprised that I actually agree with|
Originally Posted by Fire_Away
I'm not arguing with you here (really).
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everything you just said?
I'm at the point now where I wouldn't be upset if the devs developed a brand new base feature (hopefully including some form of personal lairs) then ripped out the old feature and announced everyone was starting over from scratch.
As much as I'd hate to lose all the effort I put into the current base feature, at least what we're currently dealing with would be over.
Quote:
I personally don't blame them for the technical hurdles they're facing, but from their responses to requests for offline SG invites I get the impression that at least one of them is offended at how many players use SG's for personal bases.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
I think you are very confused in equating "Devs responding to the community and their desires" with "being able to accomplish goals realistically".
The simple fact of the matter is that they can promise you the world but practically they can do very little to the actual system. It's a cobbled together spaghetti mess of code where changing even the slightest thing could mean breaking not just the base system but the game. They are being cute when they say things like jenga on fire but at the same time they're being brutally honest. This is a system with little to no documentation and while they're trying to reverse engineer it's been clear for YEARS that doing so is an incredibly intensive and laborious process and potentially not even the right way to go about it if it even CAN be reverse engineered. So this isn't them being untrue to their word, this isn't them lying, this isn't them ignoring the player's wishes. They understand that we would LOVE to have new base stuff and a functional, working base system with new goodies added now and again. They're trying. They're working on it. But trying to pin it against them because they're having to work with a mess they inherited and paint it as if it's because they're not really doing their job and just ignoring what we want? That's just ridiculous. |
As far as what I'd like to see done with personal lairs in general is I think the devs should design a series of small themed lairs and sell them on the Paragon Store. Let players buy as few or as many as they like and then just like the temp powers in the Paragon Rewards give players the option to choose which lair best suits each character from a list of lairs they purchased.
Possible themes: Underground, Sewer, Laboratory, Space Station, Chalet, Haunted House, Underwater, Moon Base, Basement, Arcane, Oriental, Medieval, etc.
Link access to the lairs to a teleport power so players can access it from anywhere in the game.
They could even sell basic lairs that are just decorative with no additional features, then sell upgrades that add reduced/limited SG/Base features that only that specific character can access so there would still be incentives to join SG's.
Like a "medical package", a "teleport package", and a "storage package".
One thing that's baffled me for awhile is that this game is built around creative expression. You can choose the powers you want, the appearance you want, the backstory you want, even write the missions you want. It's naturally very appealing to people with a creative streak; I'd even say that's partly the niche it's carved out for itself among MMO's.
But the concept of bases, as the developers intended it, is that maybe one person in ten (if even that) gets to be creative and design the base, while the other members of the supergroup just follow that person's lead and maybe get to design their own little room if the leader allows it. Really, how can the developers be surprised that players exploit the system to create solo bases? Solo bases fit way, way more into the spirit of the game. Storage aside, it seems to me like the kind of people who'd be drawn in by the prospect of infinitely versatile costumes, power sets and character stories are generally also the kind of people who'd much rather have the creative freedom to design their own bases than to just claim a spot in someone else's base.
Rather than trying to force that square peg into a round hole, which apparently hasn't been working and is just making them frustrated with players, they should just embrace CoH's role as a creative outlet and find a way to let individual players express themselves via personal bases, with whatever technical compromises need to be made for it to work (such as an assortment prefab maps and decor rather than precisely placing everything).
"Now, I'm not saying this guy at Microsoft sees gamers as a bunch of rats in a Skinner box. I'm just saying that he illustrates his theory of game design using pictures of rats in a Skinner box."
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Where exactly are you getting the notion that the devs intended maybe one person in ten would get to design a base?|
Originally Posted by Sparkly Soldier
But the concept of bases, as the developers intended it, is that maybe one person in ten (if even that) gets to be creative and design the base, while the other members of the supergroup just follow that person's lead and maybe get to design their own little room if the leader allows it.
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Base editing permissions have always been in the players hands and open to every SG member at the SG leaderships discretion.
Quote:
But only "at the SG leadership's discretion." Even if the leadership evenly distributes that responsibility (and I've seen some horror stories about how badly that's turned out sometimes), having a voice in the creation of a shared base isn't quite the same thing as creating your own. That sort of unrestrained freedom's usually reserved for those who create solo bases, which is why it confuses me that, in a game where creative expression is such a selling point, the developers never saw that coming and still rail against it rather than trying to work with it.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Where exactly are you getting the notion that the devs intended maybe one person in ten would get to design a base?
Base editing permissions have always been in the players hands and open to every SG member at the SG leaderships discretion. |
For the record, I have no solo bases and I wouldn't feel right creating one knowing that it wasn't meant for that, that it strains the servers and that the developers are set against it. But I'd love for them to offer a legitimate option along those lines.
"Now, I'm not saying this guy at Microsoft sees gamers as a bunch of rats in a Skinner box. I'm just saying that he illustrates his theory of game design using pictures of rats in a Skinner box."
Quote:
The devs did see it coming and that's why they deliberately left the decision in the hands of the players. If a player doesn't like the way an SG is being led he is free to quit and start an SG where he is in charge and he can benevolent or tyrannical as he likes.|
Originally Posted by Sparkly Soldier
But only "at the SG leadership's discretion." Even if the leadership evenly distributes that responsibility (and I've seen some horror stories about how badly that's turned out sometimes), having a voice in the creation of a shared base isn't quite the same thing as creating your own. That sort of unrestrained freedom's usually reserved for those who create solo bases, which is why it confuses me that, in a game where creative expression is such a selling point, the developers never saw that coming and still rail against it rather than trying to work with it.
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Also if the devs were against the idea of solo SG's they wouldn't have allowed us to create them with one character. They'd have instead followed in the footsteps of other games and required a minimum number of players from different accounts to create an SG. (5 seems to be the industry standard requirement)
What they devs seem to consider the "misuse" of an SG when a player is using it as a stable for the characters on his own account to get around storage limitations. And for the record I doubt you'll find any players that wouldn't be thrilled if the devs changed their minds on that.
Wait, what am I saying? This is the internet, of course there will be a couple of crackpots complaining if the devs changed their minds. Someone always feels obligated to complain.
Quote:
Sorry, I needed time to compose myself a lttle bit before responding to this.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
I think you are very confused in equating "Devs responding to the community and their desires" with "being able to accomplish goals realistically".
The simple fact of the matter is that they can promise you the world but practically they can do very little to the actual system. It's a cobbled together spaghetti mess of code where changing even the slightest thing could mean breaking not just the base system but the game. They are being cute when they say things like jenga on fire but at the same time they're being brutally honest. This is a system with little to no documentation and while they're trying to reverse engineer it's been clear for YEARS that doing so is an incredibly intensive and laborious process and potentially not even the right way to go about it if it even CAN be reverse engineered. So this isn't them being untrue to their word, this isn't them lying, this isn't them ignoring the player's wishes. They understand that we would LOVE to have new base stuff and a functional, working base system with new goodies added now and again. They're trying. They're working on it. But trying to pin it against them because they're having to work with a mess they inherited and paint it as if it's because they're not really doing their job and just ignoring what we want? That's just ridiculous. |
What is just ridiculous is the YEARS of disappointment and the things players were told were going to happen with bases but did not occur. Now that is ridiculous. They're trying? They're working on it? I've heard that before couched in much more optimistic terms BTW. Can I get a reference please because all I'm hearing is "no plans" to work on this in any significant way other than the occasional QOL thing?
Frankly, I'm very surprised there isn't more of an outcry. My guess is that it's because (a) many players have already given up and moved on (I personally know of many) (b) the basebuilding community (yours truly obviously excluded) is comprised of very creative, very friendly people who, as a rule, do not enjoy being confrontational (but look at what that has got them) (c) those that are left are "beaten down" and (d) this is so out of character with the friendly, competent, dedicated and results oriented way PS does other business they are willing to "let it all slide".
Can you imagine the torches and and pitchforks that would occur if say this were the costume editor? Picture no new costumes in a span of like years. Picture the response to a "Jenga on fire" dev comment tomorrow on that topic. Wow! Cover your ears.
It's not rocket surgery. If the devs understand that players would LOVE to see new base stuff then the devs need to ACT (not promise and not try to be cute). The only thing I even partially agree with you on is that it may take an entirely new system. Tell me: Who is signed on as responsible to do anything? Who is accountable? What's the priority? How long do you figure it'll take? I'd like to speak to that group. Cause all I'm hearing so far (for YEARS) is a bunch of excuses.
Is this about meeting the desires of your customers? Or coming up with reasons why it's "hard"... cause I have heard them all (15 people, other priorities, spaghetti code, the guy that knows (and cares) left, niche community, group content, and now Jenga on fire). I can't see how anything is going to get any better under these circumstances... so I'm speaking out one more time... and that may be hopeless... but it's not ridiculous.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
Quote:
It is ridiculous if you refuse to listen to a single one of the 15 very reasonable explanations for why bases have not been touched significantly in years. And frankly, you're blowing this ridiculously out of proportion. It's not a damn revolution against an oppressive government here, you're not going to start a "Paragon Spring" over bases because pretty much everyone realizes the actual real reasons (no, they're not made up) why bases have not been touched.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Away
(snip)
Or coming up with reasons why it's "hard"... cause I have heard them all (15 people, other priorities, spaghetti code, the guy that knows (and cares) left, niche community, group content, and now Jenga on fire). I can't see how anything is going to get any better under these circumstances... so I'm speaking out one more time... and that may be hopeless... but it's not ridiculous. |
why do I even bother to write posts like this, people like you don't listen
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Why do I even bothered to try and move this issue off the dime any more? My join date is April 2005. I spent three years just reading the forums before commenting about anything. The passion and optimism about bases back then was much greater than it is now.
Tell me something (anything) that makes me feel like the next seven years will be any different from the last seven in this area.
Awww, just forget it. It's easier to just insult people because they care deeply about something.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
There are so many unused buildings and skyscrapers in the game, why not convert them into rentable or buyable space? Have your own apartment in a skyscraper or in the bad part of town, that would be cool. I love the idea.
EDIT: Like maybe just have a standard room that cant be expanded, and all that you can do is change the floor and wall textures. Then you can add fake windows and a door and some items and stuff. Think the Sims but with far less options ahaha, may be boring but at least it'd be something.
"You doubt the glory of my CAPE SLEEVES?!" - Doba Ajiba
Quote:
You still aren't listening. The next seven years probably won't be different, barring an entirely new system. You have been told why. Why you persist on demanding an explanation is just baffling to me.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Away
Why have I even bothered to try and move this issue off the dime any more? My join date is April 2005. I spent three years just reading the forums before commenting about anything. The passion and optimism about bases back then was much greater than it is now.
Tell me something (anything) that makes me feel like the next seven years will be any different from the last seven in this area. Awww, just forget it. It's easier to just insult people because they care deeply about something. |
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Quote:
I saw what you did there. Way to hedge your bet (barring an entirely new system). I ask (I know I'm not in a position to demand anything) because I've been down this road before (many times), I've been told many things, and was disappointed (many times... if it was for 15 "valid reasons" or not is subject to debate). I think a reasonable person with reasonable expectations should ask what comes next. If that baffles you, that's a shame. Personally, I'm not prepared mentally to deal with another seven years of crap over this. So I tell you what, if I split you get dibs on my stuff.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
You still aren't listening. The next seven years probably won't be different, barring an entirely new system. You have been told why. Why you persist on demanding an explanation is just baffling to me.
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And with that... I'm out and leave the next word to you or anyone who wants it.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
Why not just create your personal lair within your sg base? If you don't have the decorating privileges, ask for them.
I suspect, if all the players that want personal lairs started making their own SGs, the dev team just might come up with a way to make the supergroup mean something more than a personal storage area.
If indeed it's that much of a resource hog (and I read why they changed the storage cap down to 30 from ..999, I think), then a prefab map or three for sale at the market might not be that much of a stretch.
Not sure how they'd make SGs and their bases more meaningful...but that can be for another day.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
Quote:
What comes next is a new system. Which they must devote significant resources to, which is not at all cost effective if it's a niche system (see: Arena PvP, PvP zones, Mission Architect), all of which has already been posted in this thread but somehow you're not seeing it.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Away
I saw what you did there. Way to hedge your bet (barring an entirely new system). I ask (I know I'm not in a position to demand anything) because I've been down this road before (many times), I've been told many things, and was disappointed (many times... if it was for 15 "valid reasons" or not is subject to debate). I think a reasonable person with reasonable expectations should ask what comes next. If that baffles you, that's a shame. Personally, I'm not prepared mentally to deal with another seven years of crap over this. So I tell you what, if I split you get dibs on my stuff.
And with that... I'm out and leave the next word to you or anyone who wants it. |
If you're honestly not mentally prepared for not getting a certain thing in a video game, then maybe the issue doesn't lie with the game. You call yourself a reasonable person with reasonable expectations but neither of those things seem to be the case. Do yourself a favor and take a big step back and go watch Tropic Thunder.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Quote:
Uhm that's what players have been doing for years, and subsequently inviting their own alts into the SG's which the devs don't want them doing.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
Why not just create your personal lair within your sg base? If you don't have the decorating privileges, ask for them.
I suspect, if all the players that want personal lairs started making their own SGs, the dev team just might come up with a way to make the supergroup mean something more than a personal storage area. If indeed it's that much of a resource hog (and I read why they changed the storage cap down to 30 from ..999, I think), then a prefab map or three for sale at the market might not be that much of a stretch. Not sure how they'd make SGs and their bases more meaningful...but that can be for another day. |
Oh and FYI the salvage storage drop was 2,500 to 30. The bins held a lot more than 999
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While bases may currently be a niche system, let's be honest it doesn't share the stigmata PvP does, and a new decent system could easily attract new blood.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
What comes next is a new system. Which they must devote significant resources to, which is not at all cost effective if it's a niche system (see: Arena PvP, PvP zones, Mission Architect), all of which has already been posted in this thread but somehow you're not seeing it.
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As for bases, other people have said this, I think the current system should be left in place as a legacy system (obviously, way too many awesome bases to just invalidate them) and make a new one that can exist side by side with an old-style base. I like a lot of what SuperOz suggested, and I agree that with the tech the devs have to work with today, it shouldn't [Standard Code Rant] add a prohibitive amount of additional strain, especially when you take PvP constraints out of the picture.
The PvP parts, well... it was a really cool idea they showed in the CG trailer, at least. While it lasted in beta, all I remember were people building the worst, most incomprehensible impossible to navigate hallways of doom. That and with the current, uh, "state" of PS as a whole, well, I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath for cool new PvP stuff anyway.