Is water blast obsolete before it launches?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-09 16:54 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Not for me; I like powers because they look cool or it's a fun set in general and not because I'm the best/top-dog at doing x (st dmg, aoe dmg, etc...).
'sides, they said the sets without a snipe will be getting other changes.
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I hesitate on that because they promise buffs then takes months or even years to actually put them into play.|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Not for me; I like powers because they look cool or it's a fun set in general and not because I'm the best/top-dog at doing x (st dmg, aoe dmg, etc...).
'sides, they said the sets without a snipe will be getting other changes. |
I mean Gravity was underperforming since i6.... thats 15 issues.....Beast mastery has been proven to be by far the worst MM primary and not a hint of a change.
Im very reluctanct to think they will buff a new set 2 months after it comes out the door no matter how badly it needs it.
Especially since everyone will have bought it by then, why change something people have already paid for.. they wont even change something that people avoided buying because it was subpar.
PS... Until changes are on test, they arent real.. I dont care what is promised, until its in black and white or blue and white in patch notes, its not real.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
as EI says, poeple dont always play sets because they are top tier dmg, thats only if you really are hardcore min maxing your toon
not all my toons powersets are "teh uber dmgs" but i like playing them, and i do what i can to make an uber build for them
this set already has advantages over other sets with the amount of aoe it can output along with the 3 tidal forces water jet, i can see water blast still being better than some of the other sets without a snipe
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Yeah its an allright set, but if you compare it to say fire or AR it comes out behind in both Aoe and single target.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
as EI says, poeple dont always play sets because they are top tier dmg, thats only if you really are hardcore min maxing your toon
not all my toons powersets are "teh uber dmgs" but i like playing them, and i do what i can to make an uber build for them this set already has advantages over other sets with the amount of aoe it can output along with the 3 tidal forces water jet, i can see water blast still being better than some of the other sets without a snipe |
No set should be behind in both.
I guess it will be allright as a defender set, maybe even a corruptor, but its just going to be a sad joke as a blaster set.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Honestly I'm not concerned about it. Even if the snipe changes go live as is (which I find doubtful) I think Water Blast is still pretty competitive. It's got three good non-nuke ranged AoEs which puts it ahead of a lot of other sets in terms of AoE damage (and Geyser is pretty good even if it isn't Rain of Arrows good).
Single target it's already got four decent single target attacks so it's a decent attack chain right off the bat. In addition the ability to "double-tap" Water Jet should make up for the lack of snipe damage compared to other sets.
So yeah I think Water Blast will still be competitive with the snipe changes.
Water Blast may not keep up with Snipe-sets single-target DPS, but it has some advantages that should keep it popular for a while.
Water Blast features:
* A more complex set mechanic than most blast sets
* A self-heal and other good bits of mitigation
* Four AoE attacks (TAoE, Cone, Patch, and crashless nuke) for high-tier AoE DPS
* A crashless nuke (compare the popularity of Full Auto and Rain of Arrows)
* Fancy graphics
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How on earth do you figure it's behind AR in single target damage? Even if you assume Prma-FastSnipe it's got an extra single target attack, the ability to double-tap it's highest damage attack plus an Aim power.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Yeah its an allright set, but if you compare it to say fire or AR it comes out behind in both Aoe and single target.
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And, you know, none of the powersets are in Competion with the others. And if you want to compare Water Blast to another powerset, how about Psi or Electric, or Radiation?
Why don't you just shut up and go play Min/Max with you powerset of choice and let us enjoy the cool sploosh of water?
Be Well!
Fireheart
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Go check out the post on the blaster forum.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
How on earth do you figure it's behind AR in single target damage? Even if you assume Prma-FastSnipe it's got an extra single target attack, the ability to double-tap it's highest damage attack plus an Aim power.
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AR with the snipe changes rises way way way to the top of single target damage.
And for aoe its got Full auto, Ignire, Flamethrower, M30 and buckshot
5 Aoe's!
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Yes and no....|
Originally Posted by Fireheart
And, you know, none of the powersets are in Competion with the others. And if you want to compare Water Blast to another powerset, how about Psi or Electric, or Radiation?
Why don't you just shut up and go play Min/Max with you powerset of choice and let us enjoy the cool sploosh of water? Be Well! Fireheart |
Gravity, EA, archery were all functional before the fixes, but they stunk like rotten foot cheese when you looked at them compared to anything else.
Heck look at the sorry state of DP, its laughed at by everyone for its incredible subparness.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Awesome idea..compare a new set to what is seen as the BEST in ST and AoE! And then you wonder WHY it somehow..isnt the best? Genius. If it was the best, then other people, perhaps even you, would go moan that damn it, my fire blast and ar toons arent the best any more, cause they make new sets toooooooo good. OMG power creep *head explodes*
How about waiting till set set is even out?
EA stunk? Sorry but it didnt. A friend of mine had an EA brute, back before IOs, and it was far and away the best melee I have ever seen. Sure it wasn't the most obviously 'good' set but it was not half as bad as all the whiners made out.
Same with DP. I think you need to change your comments to..YOUR dp sucks..your archery sucks, your grav sucks, your ea sucks. Other people love those sets and do just fine with them..more than fine.
Again, as others are saying..NOT everyone plays any set to be the best. If your ego can't handle not being the best..go roll some more ss/fire alts.
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EA is now one of the best sets availible, Archery is one of the best sets now, I play both. But I didnt before the change.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Awesome idea..compare a new set to what is seen as the BEST in ST and AoE! And then you wonder WHY it somehow..isnt the best? Genius. If it was the best, then other people, perhaps even you, would go moan that damn it, my fire blast and ar toons arent the best any more, cause they make new sets toooooooo good. OMG power creep *head explodes*
How about waiting till set set is even out? EA stunk? Sorry but it didnt. A friend of mine had an EA brute, back before IOs, and it was far and away the best melee I have ever seen. Sure it wasn't the most obviously 'good' set but it was not half as bad as all the whiners made out. Same with DP. I think you need to change your comments to..YOUR dp sucks..your archery sucks, your grav sucks, your ea sucks. Other people love those sets and do just fine with them..more than fine. Again, as others are saying..NOT everyone plays any set to be the best. If your ego can't handle not being the best..go roll some more ss/fire alts. |
DP still stinks like rotten foot cheese, the devs know they keep saying they are going to make changes, but so far it hasnt happened.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Say what you will...call me what you want. I could really give a rat's rear but...
I rather enjoy my DP/Elec blaster. Not once have I thought "Gee...dual pistols sucks stinky donkey feet dipped in monkey poo." Now I'll grant you I much prefer it on a blaster as opposed to a defender or corruptor...but that has more to do with the AT's than the sets seeing as most of the blast sets run somewhat anemic damage IMO. Yes, yes...I know...not ALL of them do...that's just my personal experience. The only defender that really got anywhere was my TA/Archery defender. Kicked butt on teams...didn't solo so well...and I kinda blame the TA side of that because of all the setup he had to do before commensing with the butt kicking (i would say "sticking" but...yyyyyyeah. Let's just leave it at that.)
Could DP use some tweaks. Yup...most certainly could. Do I think that it's the end-all, be-all of "bad". NNNNNNNNNNNNOPE!
EDIT: And let's face it...blasters in GENERAL are in dire need of some additional...freakin SOMETHING! I like the AT and all...but...we needz us some sweet, sweet dev lovin...and we're finally getting some of that coming our way. Which is supposed to include some tweaking to DP in the way of some adjusted animation times.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
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I heard they're cancelling the set and going back to the drawing board.
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@Starflier
It would appear you've already made up your mind on the matter.
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Lol, how was this "proven"? I've played every MM primary to 50 and not once during the journey with Beasts did I think "this is a substandard set". Is it top 3? No, but only 3 can be in the top 3. Is it good enough? Absolutely.| Beast mastery has been proven to be by far the worst MM primary |
Sorry for moderate thread-jack, but relevant since the basic premise seems to be "water blast will suck because beast mastery sucked and still sucks", which is faulty indeed.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Great come back. Way to totally prove what I said about your ego not being able to handle anything that is not the best. Sorry you apparently can't play anything that is not 'Click Rage, alternate spam footstomp then burn.'|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
EA is now one of the best sets availible, Archery is one of the best sets now, I play both. But I didnt before the change.
DP still stinks like rotten foot cheese, the devs know they keep saying they are going to make changes, but so far it hasnt happened. |
It is also interesting that you keep coming back to DP and its 'bad performance.' I have a fire, ar and dark blasters, ALL at least near the top in aoe and st..and I do not fine my DP lacking in the least. And before you go and bring up all the examples of people on the boards asking for DP tweaks..might wanna consider that the FIRST reason most bring up is the animations..NOT performance. Sure, the animation times are tied to performance..but if someone says Animation Times..to me, they dont like how something looks, not performs.
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I dont have to play best, but I never play worst|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Great come back. Way to totally prove what I said about your ego not being able to handle anything that is not the best. Sorry you apparently can't play anything that is not 'Click Rage, alternate spam footstomp then burn.'
It is also interesting that you keep coming back to DP and its 'bad performance.' I have a fire, ar and dark blasters, ALL at least near the top in aoe and st..and I do not fine my DP lacking in the least. And before you go and bring up all the examples of people on the boards asking for DP tweaks..might wanna consider that the FIRST reason most bring up is the animations..NOT performance. Sure, the animation times are tied to performance..but if someone says Animation Times..to me, they dont like how something looks, not performs. |
I dont even have a Ss/fire I do have an SS/ea, and a Kin/fire and a Stj/fire.
Look at it this way.
If water blast is now the 4th best set in the game, but in 2 months with snipe changes every set with snipe moves up a few slots and it drops to 8th or 9th best, it didnt get worse but it got worse in comparision to every other set.
Thats a problem...
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Water Blast has good control and a self heal. It should be behind AR and Fire in single target and AoE damage.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Yeah its an allright set, but if you compare it to say fire or AR it comes out behind in both Aoe and single target.
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Rifle's control does compete, but Water's is modestly better.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Pretty much this...|
Originally Posted by MisterD
It is also interesting that you keep coming back to DP and its 'bad performance.' ... And before you go and bring up all the examples of people on the boards asking for DP tweaks..might wanna consider that the FIRST reason most bring up is the animations..NOT performance. Sure, the animation times are tied to performance..but if someone says Animation Times..to me, they dont like how something looks, not performs.
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Typically, the most requested adjustments to DP that I usually see around the boards are:
Adjusted/Alternate animations. Usually the latter as many people don't particually care for the Equilibrium gun-fu motif. Those that chime in on adjusted animation times most often pick out Executioner's Shot and Piercing Shot...with a lesser degree on Hail of Bullets and Empty Clips (and sometimes Bullet Rain...though what i thought was slightly odd was the big hullabaloo of the curving bullets on that one. In "Wanted"...it was cool...awesome even. But in CoH...somehow it "didn't work". I'm STILL trying to figure that one out!)
More useful secondary effects and/or a damage ratio change on alternate ammo types (and making the secondary effects apply to the teir 1 attack Pistol). This is another biggie. It has long been agreed upon my many of the forumites that the secondary effects of most of the Swap Ammo types were near useless...particularly on a blaster. The slows on Cryo ammo wouldn't even make a snail flinch, and the -damage rarely, if ever, made even the slightest dent in mob damage output, even when leveraged to its utmost on a single target. Incendiary is just...well...extra damage. That at least worked out fairly well. The ability to apply effects with Pistols has been mentioned repeatedly, as it would aid in stacking secondary effect debuffs that much easier.
The other issue is the damage ratio when swapping ammo. The current ratio is (correct me if i'm wrong) something like 70/30, with the alternate damage type being the 30. Part of the gimmick (as we understood it) was that "Hey...running up against something that's weak to Cold damage? Use CRYO!" and other such things. However, in practice...it doesn't work out that way because the secondary damage, Cold in this example, makes for so little of the actual damage that it doesn't do so well in practice, often with the damage still being beaten out by using Incendiary Ammo. As it stands now, many players will use Standard Ammo while soloing so as to make use of the KB and Incendy Ammo while teaming for the extra damage and rarely ever touch the other 2 types...unless it's just for kicks.
And yes. I also have seen calls for a straight damage boost. But frankly...I see that nearly everywhere i go on these boards for the most part. That's not something that's restricted to DP. Of course...the funny thing is...most of the people calling for said damage boosts are also the very same one's that mention "fire" in the same sentence. Gee...real head scratcher there. Could it use a damage boost? <Shrugz> Eh. Honestly...i think tweaking the animation times a bit and making the set a bit quicker would do wonders for DP. Hell...look at fire blast (and formerly ice blast for ST damage). Part of what makes this set a top performer, aside of the gobs of damage it puts out, is the fact that it's FAST! You don't spend 3 hours whirling flames around your head before searing someone's face off.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
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I think Water Blast has a heads up. Unlike the other elemental sets, Water already has a nuke that doesn't crash.
The others will need more work to catch up.
Yeah I see what your saying Shub. But..the Snipe changes are NOT a fault with water blast..if they do somehow make WB one of the worst sets. It will still be one of only 2 (I hope Im right..) sets with a self heal, a HUGE power, especially for the blaster AT.
Don't forget that not everyone actually likes snipes. I know I wont be taking them on many, if any of my blast set toons.
I would hope (fingers and toes crossed) that Water comes out well balanced enough to deal with snipe updates. And if not..it will still be the sexiest set about, and I'll play it anyway.
I actually think its much better as a corruptor set than a blaster.
It doesnt have the raw damage a blaster is going to need.
It doesnt have a heads up because two of the strongest sets coming out of the snipe changes are Beam and AR, both of which have crashless nukes. And beams nuke is a MONSTER.
Snipes are going to be high damage and low activation as long as you can leverage them, its going to be a no brainer for any set that has it.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
It is a very solid corruptor/defender set as long as the whirlpool gets the same damage as the blaster version does. At that point it has a very heavy damage aoe control, Exceptionally nice location aoe and kind of meh single target damage.
As a blaster set it was pretty poor to begin with and the nerfs havent improved it. Geyser just isn't available often enough to be really attractive. So it really has only 3 AoEs that can be counted on as available. 1 of those is a very long DoT, another is a 40 foot cone, finally you are left with the gem of the set a solid Targetted AoE that does 100% KD.
The set could be liveable for blasters if it didn't have the tidal forces mechanic.
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Full auto = Dead things |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Water Blast has good control and a self heal. It should be behind AR and Fire in single target and AoE damage.
Rifle's control does compete, but Water's is modestly better. |
Geyser = Stunned dead things
slug = constant chance of knocked back things
M30 = constant chance of knocked back things
Buck Shot = constant chance of knocked back things
Hydro Burst = Variable chance of Knocked back things
Hydro Blast = Variable chance of Knocked back things
Ignite = Run Away
No match on water.
Its win will be corruptors and defenders where the control in geyser will be nice.
Water blast is about balanced with current sets now, but thats going to leave it way in the dust when the snipe changes come in.
Is it worth bothering with the set if its going to fall to near the bottom in just a month or two?
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.