City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

so, what's left of Jack in the game is ...

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-05 11:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

is a character named Tyrant
* which those who do not know history think means bad ruler whereas it really just means one came to power not in the usual way and was the term for many great leaders in history

* the character has the noble goal of wanting to make a paradise for everyone

* is forced to compromise because reality prevents a true paradise

* has his work ruined by the power hungry and traitorous people who work for him

* faces a rebellion of those for whom he worked so hard to create a paradise, and who claim to be wanting to make things better for everyone, but are really more ruthless, power hungry, and vicious than he is

* his downfall comes from trying to spread his vision to a new world and is rejected

I assume from this that the new dev team loves Jack, hates the old dev team, and hates the players.

Or it's just a story.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
is a character named Tyrant
* which those who do not know history think means bad ruler whereas it really just means one came to power not in the usual way and was the term for many great leaders in history


Really just trying very hard not to Godwin this thread from the get-go.

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Posted

Well, don't forget Imperious in Cimerora, and ancient history version of Statesman.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
is a character named Tyrant
* which those who do not know history think means bad ruler whereas it really just means one came to power not in the usual way and was the term for many great leaders in history
ty·rant   [tahy-ruhnt]
noun
1.
a sovereign or other ruler who uses power oppressively or unjustly.
2.
any person in a position of authority who exercises power oppressively or despotically.
3.
a tyrannical or compulsory influence.
4.
an absolute ruler, especially one in ancient Greece or Sicily.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
Really just trying very hard not to Godwin this thread from the get-go.
No, discussing Reichsman would be Insta-Godwin, not Tyrant.

... crap.

Um... let's just pretend I'm talking about Archie Goodwin instead.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
is a character named Tyrant
* which those who do not know history think means bad ruler whereas it really just means one came to power not in the usual way and was the term for many great leaders in history
Ah, i see.

"Do not know history" means anyone who feels more than two millenia of usage of the word tyrant should not be abandoned for the more neutral, but not necessarily good, connotation it had for a few centuries beforehand. So we should ignore the last 2500 or so years of usage of the term in favor of the long archaic early definition? In some ways that seems almost opposite of learning from history. (Godwin time!) "In the early days of their formation the National Socialists were focused on rejecting the unfairly punitive economic sanctions forced upon Germany at the end of World War I and rebuilding the German economy. Why does everyone always harp on the stuff that happened over the following decade instead?!"

When "really just means" is a pretext for ignoring over two millenia of widespread usage i suspect you're being a tad disingenuous.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
ty·rant   [tahy-ruhnt]
noun
1.
a sovereign or other ruler who uses power oppressively or unjustly.
2.
any person in a position of authority who exercises power oppressively or despotically.
3.
a tyrannical or compulsory influence.
4.
an absolute ruler, especially one in ancient Greece or Sicily.
He is technically correct (the best kind of correct). The original definition of a tyrant did not include any sort of ethical consideration. However that isn't really the modern usage and I think we can agree that Tyrant didn't select his name because he enjoys hugging puppies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In ancient Greece, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by securing the support of different factions of a deme. The word "tyrannos", possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin, then carried no ethical censure; it simply referred to anyone, good or bad, who obtained executive power in a polis by unconventional means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant

 

Posted

Emperor Cole didn't select the appelation at all... it was applied by Primals. Wasn't it?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
Ah, i see.

"Do not know history" means anyone who feels more than two millenia of usage of the word tryant should not be abandoned for the more neutral, but not necessarily good, connotation it had for a few centuries beforehand. So we should ignore the last 2500 or so years of usage of the term in favor of the long archaic early definition?
Exactly.

If one is faced with a character with powers based on Greek mythology created by a historian, one should probably assume that they were named knowing the original meaning of the word rather than just the common usage today.

I have to assume that Tyrant was named knowing the double meaning of the term and that it was chosen deliberately. It is also nice that being a character based on Greek mythology they used Tyrant which is a Greek word rather than Dictator with is a Latin word.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
Emperor Cole didn't select the appelation at all... it was applied by Primals. Wasn't it?
his enemies. Could be primals, could be the resistance or others

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
Emperor Cole didn't select the appelation at all... it was applied by Primals. Wasn't it?
Well, that's true in the newer version of Praetoria. He was simply Emperor Cole to the Praetorians who didn't oppose his rule.

i haven't read the original storyline in a very long time, but back when Praetoria was the goatee universe i thought he used the name proudly to signify his status as a brutal absolute monarch.

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Posted

Wikipedia cited as a source? Gimme a second to go change that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In ancient galaxies far, far away, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by seizing the power of the Well of the Furies to defeat a fauna gobbling flora monster. The word "tyrannos", possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin, means butterscotch and is actually not related to this discussion at all.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
Exactly.

If one is faced with a character with powers based on Greek mythology created by a historian, one should probably assume that they were named knowing the original meaning of the word rather than just the common usage today.

I have to assume that Tyrant was named knowing the double meaning of the term and that it was chosen deliberately. It is also nice that being a character based on Greek mythology they used Tyrant which is a Greek word rather than Dictator with is a Latin word.
That common, pejorative usage was in fact also used during the classical period at the height of ancient Greek culture that most people, including historians, think of when they reference ancient Greece. Just like when most people reference ancient Egypt they aren't thinking of small stone age villages clustered along a fertile valley, but a place with cities and huge stone edifices. Now, some historians might focus on the earliest known settlements, but no historian will say "Ancient Egypt" and expect you to visualize tiny clusters of huts along a river.

So i call PANCAKES on that line of reasoning.

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Posted

Ironic or appropriate. Take your pick.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
That common, pejorative usage was in fact also used during the classical period at the height of ancient Greek culture that most people, including historians, think of when they reference ancient Greece. Just like when most people reference ancient Egypt they aren't thinking of small stone age villages clustered along a fertile valley, but a place with cities and huge stone edifices. Now, some historians might focus on the earliest known settlements, but no historian will say "Ancient Egypt" and expect you to visualize tiny clusters of huts along a river.

So i call PANCAKES on that line of reasoning.
All I know is that I'm freaking furious about this minor aside in dug's original post which actually was about Jack Emmert and not sociolinguistics.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpphantom View Post
Wikipedia cited as a source? Gimme a second to go change that...
"tyrant, n.". OED Online. June 2012. Oxford University Press. http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/208425 (accessed July 05, 2012).

Better?

 

Posted

Getting mad because a thread on the internet doesn't stay on topic? Man, you must have like seventy two ulcers.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
All I know is that I'm freaking furious about this minor aside in dug's original post which actually was about Jack Emmert and not sociolinguistics.
So what? The entire premise of the post isn't worth discussing.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
So what? The entire premise of the post isn't worth discussing.
Precisely. If a thread isn't worth taking seriously it's definitely worth becoming outraged over, that's my motto.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
All I know is that I'm freaking furious about this minor aside in dug's original post which actually was about Jack Emmert and not sociolinguistics.
Eh, i found the other assertions also somewhat inane and farcical, but at least the first sociolinguistic bit was based in something that could be independently checked or rebutted...
The rest was mostly fluoride mind control conspiracy grade making PANCAKE up.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Precisely. If a thread isn't worth taking seriously it's definitely worth becoming outraged over, that's my motto.
And yet here you are making posts that appear somewhat outraged about the outrage you perceive in the other posts. Outrageous!

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