What should all trial leaders know?

In the last phase she has a pulse that deals significant damage, as well as a confuse that can affect a few players. If players aren't paying attention to the game when they fire their AoE powers they can hurt other people, which can lead to significant damage.

Where is this advertised? Or do you think having a larger team means people should automatically expect to be playing a different game?

There is no way to fail 99% of the normal content, and I would never expect to be able to fail trials either (I don't count not bringing enough firepower as failing, you should always bring a decently made team the first time you run something).

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

The very size of the league makes it more likely that you will have impatient people in the team who have no patience for you not knowing what you are doing.

If a newbie attacks Anti-Matter early they will get jumped by the rest of their team, that never used to happen.

And I still don't fully understand some timed phases of Keyes so could run out of time there without a leader and/or a few people who do know what to do. Then there are always people who always make comments like 'If you don't know what to do with temp power A pass it along' which helps nobody, and 'why aren't you throwing that grenade at Marauder you noob'.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Does the power ignore defense? I'm wondering whether I should tell people to bring purples or oranges just in case we don't have enough mitigation otherwise next time I feel like running the trial.

Those people who are jerks are sadly not limited to Incarnate content - Just look at the forums, where snark and personal jabs at others are often interjected into discussions. It's part of human culture, despite our best efforts to encourage respect.

Folks still get called out for attacking an AV, a spawn, etc., before the team's ready. An example might be jumping into the mobs during the Lord Recluse or Statesman task force before Incarnates made everyone capable of recovering from a bad pull. People who don't work with the team and get called on it isn't unique to Trials - There's just more AV, "Big Boss" encounters in Trials than other content, so the situation of not working with the team in situation where that can make a difference happens more often.

In situations like the STF or the Abandoned Sewers trial, where you have specific actions you need to take (Taking down the towers before fighting, defeating the generators then using the Special Weapons on the Hydra Head) those same situations can happen. Having rude teammates complaining about not following or even knowing a strategy isn't unique to Incarnate content.

Mind you, I actively discourage that kind of behavior (and kick myself when I don't come down on it hard enough in leagues) - But it's not something that's new to City of Heroes.

The information I was talking about (team size) is, get this, IN THE GAME. You don't have to go to any other source (though it would be nice if you did).

Click on any of the thumbnails for a larger version:



And people are still dumb enough to try to form an ITF with less than 6 players. I avoid those leaders like the plague. Why? Because experience has shown me that this type of leader will make the ITF a 90+ minute task force with a strong chance of failure.

And what about the official documentation? Is that also "optional"? How about the in-game information (posted above)? At what point do you draw the line as to who is qualified to lead a trial?

If the leader isn't willing or able to read the basic in-game documentation or the official documentation* for the trial, then they shouldn't lead it.

* Official documentation sources:
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/game_updates/

BAF:
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/g.../baf_guide.php

Lambda:
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/g...ctor_guide.php

Keyes:
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/g...land_guide.php

Underground:
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/g...ound_guide.php

MoM:
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/g...yhem_guide.php

TPN:
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/g...mpus_guide.php

Dilemma Diabolique:
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/g...tegy_guide.php

The only incarnate Trial without an official guide is the Magisterium which is a combination of the previous trials.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

That is part of where "respect for the leader" comes in... If the player doesn't respect the leader, then they are ill-suited to being on that team. Either the impatient person finds another team or settles down.

If they aren't functioning as a part of the team, it is the leader's responsibility to establish order by instruction. If instruction fails, then it is the leader's responsibility to remove them from the equation (ie. remove them from the trial and don't invite them back until they show that they can act as a part of a team).

Have you ever bothered to ask? I'm serious here. Learning a trial is just as much your responsibility as a player as it is the leader's responsibility for leading the trial. One thing I nearly always do is ask if players have any questions before and after a trial. If someone walks away with not knowing how an aspect of the trial works, that is their fault, not mine.

Expecting detailed instructions during a timed phase is unreasonable. Especially basic instructions like use this Temp power on X. Everywhere else in the game has temp powers, and if people can't understand that by level 50, they really shouldn't be playing the game.

On the flip side, that is no excuse for being rude about it. If the player, after being told how to use the temp power then still doesn't understand, then they SHOULD be told to pass it to someone else. After the trial, the person that doesn't know what the temp power is for should then ask the trial leader about it after the trial is over.

Trial leaders are human, but so are you. If you want to do the content, you should at least familiarize yourself as to the basics of the trial. if you don't want to put that tiny bit of effort in, then you have no right to ask a league leader to make up for your deficiency.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Yeah. No. The penalty for being an idiot is lower in the standard game than the incarnate trials. But the number of times I've suddenly needed to go to the bathroom, or to lunch, or my grandmother's most recent funeral, or to walk my non-existent pet, or to cry myself to sleep, is high enough to make that statement at least highly questionable.

This adds so much to the thread, and the topic, so thanks for that.
I returned to the game after ITF was released. So, the first time I ran it, I got an invite to one, and they were "speeding" it. My poor blaster just had the basic IOs, because I couldn't afford most of the stuff I wanted. Many of the recipes were still vague and unclear, and the rule of 5, I thought that was some secret people whispered about. I had no clue. But, I didn't try leading. I followed. The leader made sure that folks had adequate buffs to ignore most of the mobs while we persued the objectives. It was a very interesting time - standing in the midst of 20-30 cims and not getting hurt.
If it were brand new - just hit live - I strongly suspect there would be some folks that had ran it on beta and shared what they knew, either by leading one themselves, or via global channels. At least, thats how things seem to me on Liberty. When Magisterium came out, @energizing ion led us on 5 runs - the 4th one failed for one reason or another. The others went smooth.

Some have said that the iTrial content is counter-intuitive in some regards. I suppose that's at least partially fair. However, it's the only content that has any challenge to it. Even my blaster can clear a Drecks map set to +2/8 in 30 minutes. (provided I take a few break frees)

We've seen mention of incarnate content being designed for power gamers. This may actually be true - and I'm okay with that. I'm super excited about the magisterium and The Really Hard Way. Our server has come soooo close, but that rascal tyrant has just enough regen.


The incarnate content - with it's "counter-intuitive" content is so much more interesting to me. But, that is just me - of course, some of you feel different - and that's perfectly ok.

But, we're getting sort of off topic - or maybe I am.

I highlighted a portion of your quote - not to insult - but to point out that it's quite ok for you to not have any idea what to expect on the first day an task force goes live. Odds are, most of your teammates won't either.

However, with incarnate content, you are talking about teaming with up to 23 other players - if none of them have a clue and you don't either, then what's the harm? (some will gripe and moan, but those players do that when things go well, too)
But - after a week, most of the players with more game time will be up on their game. They will know what to expect, simply from practice running it. Should you try to lead a ugt now, and not be aware that there is confusion in the last challenge, is that bad design, or poor performance?
Patch notes are posted shortly after content goes live. As much as I hate that it's not visible in game, it is accessible, and it's each players responsibility to be aware of what's in them. And in those patch notes, you will learn some things. If something isn't clear, you can always ask before you start to form a trial.

We're talking 1 funeral for 1 person, right? At least I hope you are. If you are talking about multiple funerals for the same person...

Actually, forget I said anything about this, I don't want to know.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

She starts to feel unwell every time I see players use rez inspirations while critters with damage auras are still standing on them.

Team size requirements? Really? Since any moron with a mouse and the ability to find the "queue trial" button in the lfg tab will know really quickly whether they've met the requirements I don't see how this is at all relevant.

I think you're the only one going off about minimum team size, and that we pretty much all agree that you need to know the minimum number of players to start a trial. And since that's found in-game, I'm not sure why you're bringing it up in response to a post about information not found in the game being required for trials.

How do you start an ITF with less than 6 players? Are you talking about inviting fillers?

And I think you completely missed Darkstar's point that no external documentation or forum reading was required for people to be successful ITF leaders. She wasn't saying there are no idiots trying to start ITF's. Pointing out that there are stupid people is sort of a non-sequitur.


::shrug::

Some people read game manuals before starting the game, some prefer to learn on the fly. The sort of information the official documentation gives is rather basic, and the sort of information I see being "required" on leagues is very specific.

I'm not sure why they didn't include much of the information in those guides in-game in the form of a contact like the RWZ Raid coordinator or Prometheus (especially given that he already has dialogues for Lambda, BAF and Keyes) Seems like that would be a no-brainer.

Of course, all of this is beside the point. MY only point was that if a league leader is up-front about the amount of experience/knowledge he or she has with a certain trial, I don't think it's the tiniest bit irresponsible on their part to queue up the league. If they've communicated up front, everyone on the league knows what they're getting into, and can continue or quit accordingly.

Why do I keep bringing this up? Because I've noticed the trend in-game of players who accept places on leagues with less experienced leaders who do communicate their lack of experience, completely ignore the league leader during the trial, and turn around and castigate the poor sap publicly if the trial fails. Sometimes even if it doesn't fail.

Worse yet, I've seen experienced league leaders trying to make the best of a low server population get pressured into trying more than they know the league is capable of doing (like one recently who was pressured by members of his league to invite more than sixteen people to a less-than-ideal bugged Magisterium league because some friends had gotten online after the previously-stated 16 member maximum had been reached) and then turn right around and complain because of a less-than-ideal league.

The problem with the incarnate system being for powergamers isn't with league leaders; it's with league members. If you haven't been leading leagues since they were on beta and you don't have an already-established reputation as a league leader, it's very difficult to get players to listen to you, and more often than not trials fail because players think they know how to do it better than the leader and do their own thing regardless.

How's anybody in a PUG supposed to know you went to the same grandmother's funeral two months ago during a TPN Campus trial that was spinning out of control faster than Charlie Sheen and Kim Kardashian doing the $64,000 Pyramid?

Anyway, thanks for pointing out that info, Snow Globe, because until you did so, I had absolutely no idea that any of it existed. I'd seen the LFG list, but never bothered to mouse over the trial names, because what other element in game gives you detailed info just for mousing over it? And though I'd been to the Paragon Wiki, I had no idea there were guides actually on the City of Heroes website itself.

I guess my point is, this stuff isn't necessarily obvious if you're not already familiar with it. I've been out since before the issue where the Mission Architect came out and just got back into the game in January by downloading the game client after CoX went free-to-play. I found the Wikia wiki and assumed that wiki-based info about CoX had been abandoned until someone linked to the music page on the Paragon wiki and things advanced from there.

And honestly, the thought that I'm "insane" for not wanting to take a 2 credit course on "Tactics of the Praetorian War" before I can fill the Destiny slot on my first Incarnate character is more than a little insulting. The folks on my server (Victory) put up with me enough when leading regular Task Forces (we were wandering through the Faultline Dam during Posi part II when someone asked, "Where are we going?" and someone else replied "I don't know, I'm just following Crimson Flicker."); I don't feel like I should have to subject them to my Laurie Notaro-like leadership skills in an actual Incarnate Trial.

Maybe it's just a personal problem.
--
Pauper

I don't think it's possible for a league leader to boot someone from the trial any more, is it? Last I checked it had to be put up for a vote.

Which - as with most things - translates to pure comedy in my mind. (Whoa, time out there, Shadowhunter! We've got "issues" in our league here, OW! Quit it Pendragon! Watch where you're pointing that thing. We're trying to hold a vote, here! Aw, for cryin' out loud WILL SOMEBODY TELL CHIMERA TO COOL HIS QUIVER!?!)

I'm getting further off topic, but I encourage you to reconsider not leading a league. Your sense of humor and good nature can cover up mechanic ignorance, as long as you continue to have some common sense. Power gamers enjoy funny comments and silliness, too! I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'd rather have a talkative, engaging league with some bumps than a stone silent league that succeeds without any problems.

See post #39... The post in between your 2 replies to me... The player I was responding to (a) didn't know that info existed in the game, (b) didn't know there was official documentation, and (c) didn't feel like or want to look at a player guide for that information. I'm not sure why you feel the need to say what you did here. Especially when the conversation started with Ukaserex saying that league leaders should know how many players a league need or is limited to. I then said it was a basic check. The person you are trying to defend has openly admitted to not knowing this.

No, I'm talking about players that go "Hey, let's do an ITF?", then sit around for 30 minutes trying to spam channels for interest. When that fails they get fillers (or they door sit on their alt account without disclosing that) and expect to win.

Nope, but then again, I've seen ITFs fail in the last 6 months too.

Unless I know the player, I'm not joining a league that where they don't know what they are doing. Usually that is a sign that I'll get the star before the trial starts, because people know that I know how they are run.

Yes, having a NPC give a proper briefing would be good. I don't think Prometheus would be a good choice though.

I've not seen this happening, as I'm usually one of the people that get roped into leading trials when I'm around.

I feel that way every single time a MoM trial is mentioned in my presence on Triumph.

Even with that experience and an already established reputation as a league leader it is difficult to get players to listen. I speak from experience here.

Actually yes, it is still possible.

• If in a closed league, the leader has kick rights.
• If in an open league, if the leader is well respected and asks for a vote-kick because of someone not following instructions the vote tends to be approved (speaking from my first vote-kick experience).
• If in an open league, if the leader is well respected and has a core group on voice chat, any vote-kick can be ratified fairly seamlessly. It is called stacking the deck. Did I mention that I've been doing most trials with 2-6 players on Skype these days? Oh, sorry...

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Using the same excuse too many times tends to expose that excuse.

Quite a lot, actually. If not, also try right-clicking and selecting "more info" would also work. Or ask someone.

Again, you are misrepresenting what I said, and I find that greatly insulting.

I really don't care if someone is new to a trial I lead or has done it 1,000 times before. I do care if I'm joining a league that the trial leader doesn't know what the heck they are doing. If the trial leader can't put enough effort to find out the basic (and I mean basic) information about a trial, that trial isn't one that I want to join.

Incarnate Trials =/= Regular Task Forces. Not only that, but as a trial leader, you should know enough about the trial so you can actually lead. If you aren't up front with that, you could be wasting someone's time. Potentially 23 other player's time.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Learn As You Go is fine so long as the cost isn't trial failure the first X times you go through it for The Learning Experience. The problem is that the iTrials are so unforgiving--when you don't yet know the gimmicks and how to defeat them--that applying sound CoX combat tactics are not enough to win the day. I don't like games where I (or, rather, the team/league) can't pull victory from the jaws of defeat by the vigorous application of tried and true tactics. No, when the only way to reach the success state is to master a handful of unique gimmicky activities, the game is basically asking you to learn an entirely new game (in effect, each trial is its own game you have to learn how to play). Just the fact that the iTrial stages are usually timed makes them fundamentally different from established CoH content (from a tactical point of view).

Wasn't Hami day one? And a much harder incarnation?
Respec Trials were pretty soon after start, also alot harder then.
Abandoned sewer trial took a lot of coordination and people paying attention.

While there are more activities that require coordination and learning, there are a lot more activities overall.

This is absolutely not true.

Here are some things off the top of my head that required good leadership and knowledge of game mechanics before itrials:

STF
ITF
KHTF
LRSF
Mother Ship Raid
Hamidon Raid - both the pre i9 and post i9
Abandoned Sewer Trial

etc etc etc

To try and blame incarnate content for needing leadership is absurd. All the TFs and raids I listed required someone who knew the tf/trial...and an ability of them to lead..and others to follow simple instructions.

Originally Posted by Paladiamors I love you, I Burnt the Toast!

I would love to see a team who has never participated in a hami raid, mothership raid, stf... pull it off successfully without any insight from the web or other players... yeah that would be a train wreck in the making.

I get the feeling yer anti-itrial very much so...but trying to convince others that itrials are the new evil which are destroying the game and requiring people to actually LEAD something to success...is pure BS.

Aside from regular missions MOST content in this game requires a knowledge of what the heck you are doing and being able to tell your team what needs to be done. Sure nowadays I can do an ITF and not say 1 word the entire time...then again I can also do that with a BAF/LAM. The more itrials are around the less leaders have to give step by step instructions....because GASP people are learning the mechanics/strategies necessary to complete them....and simply doing them without instruction. I ran a BAF today and I said the following the entire time:

XXPlayerXX will be pulling AVs
Team 1/2 South...3 North

That was it....and that was all that was needed. Heck I ran a SLAM yesterday and my instructions were:


nothing.

And amazingly everything went off without a hitch.


To your assertion that leadership was not needed for tfs/trials prior to itrials I say:

Originally Posted by Paladiamors I love you, I Burnt the Toast!

I wasn't on about the team size. I was saying that just because the team needs to be larger doesn't show a new person that the trial is going to be significantly different from the rest of the game and require a whole new level of organisation.

In smaller teams though you get less people who don't show respect (People in general get more and more ignorant the larger a crowd they are in) and it is almost always less of an issue if they don't behave aside from the occasional side case. I have never felt the need to give a speech before any fight and never been in a situation where I failed completely due to not having an understanding of the mechanics (And I don't kick people from teams unless they are clearly being annoying on purpose, or talking to much because I hate that).

The way trials provide rewards also encourage people to get annoyed at the guy who isn't sure what to do, if you mess up earning a badge you lose rewards for the whole trial, if you mess up in a TF not much happens and you certainly don't deprive other people.

Maybe, but was that ever designed to be repeated over and over as the only means of progression past a certain point? I have done 1 hami raid and will never do one again unless they revamp it, but even as the tank I never felt that I could cause the raid to fail and annoy 49 other people.

None of those require anything other than a basic understanding of how to play the game (Not jumping onto 10 AV's at the end of the LRSF is fairly self evident), aside from the MSR, which gets explained by some guy you can't miss as you run through the Vanguard base. And if you hadn't read what that guy says you wouldn't even know about the MSR.

As I said above, the guy in the Vanguard base tells you what to do, and if you haven't seen that I don't think there is another way to even know the MSR exists. And as with the hami raid, one person who doesn't know about the bombs is never going to stop people earning rewards, and it doesn't have to be repeated over and over as the only way to progress.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

The Hami raid was originally the only way to get HO drops. So, yes, it was exactly designed to be repeated over and over as the only means of progression past a certain point.

I wasn't around pre-inventions so didn't realise that. But HO's were never set as a requirement in order to partake in any other content that I know of, so you were never really required to repeat it and those that chose not too were never left out.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"