The problem with how Tyrant is defeated.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-15 15:09 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Also to mention we share this same weakness, during the Black Swan battle the Quills shift us down in level.
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Considering the lore states that The Battalion's Well eats the Well's of other races like candy, probably not so well.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Had we not done that, how would of Tyrant faired against the Battalion I wonder?
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We kinda outnumbered him a few dozen to one too.
But there you go. He's meant to have absorbed most of the heroic potential of at least one whole planet, so.. ya know. Hit them where they're weak and all that.
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Actually the bit that amuses me about this is that we get the tool we use to defeat him during the same trial we defeat him in. In other words we're only able to defeat him because Black Swan tried to defeat us first.
So the big question is what was our plan going into that fight? Turn up and hope that the one bad guy with the power we need to defeat Tyrant turns up? What would we have done if she'd had a cold that day and decided to stay in bed?
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So the big question is what was our plan going into that fight? Turn up and hope that the one bad guy with the power we need to defeat Tyrant turns up? What would we have done if she'd had a cold that day and decided to stay in bed?
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Still, would be something that Stalkers would be good at.
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The "what if" scenario is the "Really Hard Way" badge. Defeating him without exploiting the weakness. This badge/method is an integral part of the trial lore. It shows that it IS possible, just that the odds are stacked dramatically against you. Until Black Swan shows up serendipitously (is that a word?) that is, and you realize the same weakness used to take down Diabolique can work here as well.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Actually the bit that amuses me about this is that we get the tool we use to defeat him during the same trial we defeat him in. In other words we're only able to defeat him because Black Swan tried to defeat us first.
So the big question is what was our plan going into that fight? Turn up and hope that the one bad guy with the power we need to defeat Tyrant turns up? What would we have done if she'd had a cold that day and decided to stay in bed? |
Positron
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Yeah, it's like targeting an exhaust port instead of attacking a huge armored space station head on with a small fleet of fighters - totally unfair and cheating.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
I feel its a bit of a shady win (Ignoring the really hard way badge). Technically we really didnt defeat Tyrant at his full strength we exploited a hole in his armor sort to speak. It reminds me of how Statesman dies. Wade is very weak versus him but takes advantage of a ritual to bring him down.
It would be like the equal of beating Superman with an armor of Kryptonite and guns that shoot it versus going toe to toe and beating him at full strength. I feel we did this to Tyrant, we didnt best him because we were stronger, we simply disconnected his Well connection rendering him powerless and that to me that feels like an empty win. Had we not done that, how would of Tyrant faired against the Battalion I wonder? |
@Golden Girl
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Fair enough. What bothers me, and maybe someone who really studies the Lore can comment, but WHEN did Jocas (dagger of and quills of) actually appear? Because, until you hear about the dagger in DD trial, and the dream doc mentions it in his arc, I had NO idea who or what it is. I still actually don't..aside from those two objects.|
Originally Posted by Positron
The "what if" scenario is the "Really Hard Way" badge. Defeating him without exploiting the weakness. This badge/method is an integral part of the trial lore. It shows that it IS possible, just that the odds are stacked dramatically against you. Until Black Swan shows up serendipitously (is that a word?) that is, and you realize the same weakness used to take down Diabolique can work here as well.
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Not that I can blame the story for giving things a weakness..but it all seemed to happen a bit to suddenly for me. The whole 'Oh Diabolique and Mot are hot and heavy, but wait! I have this magic dagger I prepared earlier that can kill them! What, you never heard of it?? Shame!' Well I feel I never heard of it because it actually is not mentioned prior..
I sort of can compare this to Darrin Wade's arc in shark. At the end, he hints at a really big task for you, involving Rulurru. Even if you were a brand new player, you COULD go find out more about this rulurru, from existing lore and arcs, so when the SSA rolled around you can say Ah HA, I see where it all meshes.
But this Jocas business? Did they pull it out of their...hats?
(Can't you just picture the Dream Doc sitting on a pile of rubble doing his best david attenborough impersonation, saying 'Luckily, I found this little beauty earlier!")
(While I am semi ranting..does Tyrant seriously have the least amount of attacks, of any AV? Handstomp, eyebeam, do we even count his lightning and self buff? Dripping power of the well..get 2 attacks! I can not WAIT to be level 60 myself.)
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Now, to just become strong enough to solo Tyrant the "Really Hard Way!"|
Originally Posted by Positron
The "what if" scenario is the "Really Hard Way" badge. Defeating him without exploiting the weakness. This badge/method is an integral part of the trial lore. It shows that it IS possible, just that the odds are stacked dramatically against you. Until Black Swan shows up serendipitously (is that a word?) that is, and you realize the same weakness used to take down Diabolique can work here as well.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Not that I can blame the story for giving things a weakness..but it all seemed to happen a bit to suddenly for me. The whole 'Oh Diabolique and Mot are hot and heavy, but wait! I have this magic dagger I prepared earlier that can kill them! What, you never heard of it?? Shame!' Well I feel I never heard of it because it actually is not mentioned prior..
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The Dagger of Jocas was first mentioned, to my knowledge, in Issue 12 in the Midnight Club clues, and was implied within those clues to have been used by the Dream Doctor to imprison Rularuu.
It's possible that it was mentioned in the Shadow Shard at some point, but I have no memory of it.
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The Dagger was mentioned back in I12 as one of the titles of a book in the Midnighter Club library, and Maria Jenkins also has a mission against Black Swan that mentions the Quills - although I'm not sure how recently that's been added - certainly no earlier than I18.
@Golden Girl
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Ok, right..I feel a bit better that it WAS mentioned before. But..a single line in a book in the Midnight Club..that most people dont realise you can click? That is IT? The sum total of back story and lore? Let's just take a random line that could be turned into ANYTHING and make it the total center plot device of the whole thing!
..they did pull it out the hat.
The Dagger was mentioned by name in the Rularuu library, and the next clue pretty clearly implies that Dream Doctor used it to defeat Rularuu. http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Midnighter_Archivist_Badge
Don't forget Dark Astoria. The Dagger of Jocas is what allowed Dream Doctor to kill Diabolique.
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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
I know what it was used for in DA..I did those arcs. And I didnt recall in from the MC before you guys mentioned it. Still seems a very obscure reference for such a huge impact.
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No for me and for my character would behave the same as Goku and Vegeta did in DBZ. Goku let Frieza fight at full strength to show he was better. Likewise, Vegeta could of beaten Cell but wanted to fight his ultimate form (which got Vegeta beaten) to prove his might.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Yeah, it's like targeting an exhaust port instead of attacking a huge armored space station head on with a small fleet of fighters - totally unfair and cheating.
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That's fine. Do Really Hard Way runs to your heart's content.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
No for me and for my character would behave the same as Goku and Vegeta did in DBZ. Goku let Frieza fight at full strength to show he was better. Likewise, Vegeta could of beaten Cell but wanted to fight his ultimate form (which got Vegeta beaten) to prove his might.
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Doesnt change the lore will state you beat Tyrant via kryptonite rather then being the better combatant.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
That's fine. Do Really Hard Way runs to your heart's content.
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And you can just smirk, knowing the truth of the matter.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Doesnt change the lore will state you beat Tyrant via kryptonite rather then being the better combatant.
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Although actually, does any lore yet refer to Tyrant's defeat at all, much less the specific method of it?
Edit: I'm not sure defeating him by bringing twenty-three friends prepared specifically for Tyrant-killing proves you're a superior combatant any more than using the immediately-available tactical advantage does, really. After all, his side attempted the same Quills trick you use on him, and you showed that you're good enough to win anyway.
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To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Doesnt change the lore will state you beat Tyrant via kryptonite rather then being the better combatant.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
Hey, I just realized something: Won't the Quills of Jocas work pretty well against the Battalion? I mean, they're pretty much completely dependent on the Wells they've collected.
Also, as a random note: I'm now theorizing The Battalion... Is actually just one person. But they have an army at their command or can summon all the races linked to the Wells they consumed. They are called "The Battalion" by the Rikti because their command could not possibly believe ONE person could be so strong.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
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It doesn't seem to be logically necessary that just because the Quills of Jocas can separate someone being powered by a well from that well, it can somehow disconnect the Battalion from the many wells they apparently have either consumed or hijacked.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Hey, I just realized something: Won't the Quills of Jocas work pretty well against the Battalion? I mean, they're pretty much completely dependent on the Wells they've collected.
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| Also, as a random note: I'm now theorizing The Battalion... Is actually just one person. But they have an army at their command or can summon all the races linked to the Wells they consumed. They are called "The Battalion" by the Rikti because their command could not possibly believe ONE person could be so strong. |
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Well, Dream Doctor was afraid that Tyrant might get linked to Ruularuu, so it might be a bad idea to try and use it on Battalion.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Hey, I just realized something: Won't the Quills of Jocas work pretty well against the Battalion? I mean, they're pretty much completely dependent on the Wells they've collected.
Also, as a random note: I'm now theorizing The Battalion... Is actually just one person. But they have an army at their command or can summon all the races linked to the Wells they consumed. They are called "The Battalion" by the Rikti because their command could not possibly believe ONE person could be so strong. |
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
I feel its a bit of a shady win (Ignoring the really hard way badge). Technically we really didnt defeat Tyrant at his full strength we exploited a hole in his armor sort to speak. It reminds me of how Statesman dies. Wade is very weak versus him but takes advantage of a ritual to bring him down.
It would be like the equal of beating Superman with an armor of Kryptonite and guns that shoot it versus going toe to toe and beating him at full strength.
I feel we did this to Tyrant, we didnt best him because we were stronger, we simply disconnected his Well connection rendering him powerless and that to me that feels like an empty win.
Had we not done that, how would of Tyrant faired against the Battalion I wonder?