The problem with how Tyrant is defeated.

So by that logic, villains wouldn't join trials where the goal is to save the universe.

....... Oh wait.

Nice double standard.

Your'e saving it to conquer it later

...again, this is the root complaint.

Comic books and plenty of other mediums are filled with examples of heroes and villains teaming up. It does not always happen on the heroes' terms. Quite often, the heroes are the ones who have to suck it up and be uneasy about their actions because it's for "the greater good".

The way that basically all endgame content is co-op does not help, either.

It's been 'later' since I10 when the RWZ went co-op and villains saved the world.

We've had this discussion before and your winky faces and bad arguments have never held water.

But we have no motivation to cause chaos in Praetoria - we're targeting the loyalists, not the people they've ensalved.

Who's we? You? Because that's not 'we.' That's 'you.'

What makes you think villains don't want another world in which they can sow the seeds of destruction?

I have villains whose explicit reason for being is to cause chaos, and getting to cause chaos in Praetoria, bastion of Order Above All, would just be too perfect for them.

Unfortunately, they have to save the world instead.

Villains want a lot of thing - but for practical reaosn, they don't get them

But any new cosmic content might give evil players a chance to take over another planet - even if it'd cause major motivation and logic trouble further down the line

But the Heroes trying to save Praetoria from the loyalists wouldn't let you do that

Thereby alienating players who enjoy redside content.

And where exactly is that content? We don't have anything like that. At all. And we probably never will since the current modus operandi is "everyone has to save the world whether you like it or not."


Not all Loyalists are villains. Why would the heroes want to stop other heroes?

Furthermore, you just don't get it. I really wish the tables were turned, GG, and that Heroes had mediocre theme-breaking content while Villains got to run trials/arcs/SSA's that showcase their malevolence and will to do evil. I'd love to see what you'd say about content balance then.

Villains aren't, though.

And again, even if villains are tagging along for the greater good, why must it always be on heroic terms? Doctor Doom has teamed up with heroes quite a few times, but usually with a trick up his sleeve so he can turn the situation against the heroes the very instant the threat ends. Doom doesn't grimace and suck it up to save the world - Doom grins and magnanimously offers his help to the desperate heroes, and the Fantastic Four squirm uncomfortably as they try to guess how he'll betray them. Even if Reed Richards eventually turns the tables on Doom, which he usually does, Doom doesn't have to do things totally inconsistent with his character for the story to work.

Making Incarnate trials for just 3 people would be silly.

Reread how it was worded

The game thinks otherwise

You're exploiting the help of Heroes to gain Incarnate power for your own evil purposes - that's the trick up your evil sleeve.

Once again, this is the root complaint.

When the complaint is "villains are consistently swept aside in story content", replying "well, villains are consistently swept aside in story content" doesn't really make anyone less unhappy about it.

.... says who?

This isn't about Incarnate power. It's about the story of defeating Praetoria. As far as I'm concerned, considering Incarnate powers are NEVER mentioned in the trial lore, they have nothing to do with the story of Praetoria. Our villains are there to stop Cole and save the world. There's no two ways about it, and that's crap writing for redside.

Praetoria was still designed to give Villains some motivation - by setting up Tyrant and the loyalists as a "law and order" group, they gave Villains the chance to fight law and order, even if it was an evil kind of law and order.
If they'ds tuck to the original Praetorian set up, where Tyrant and his followers were like a preview of Reclsue and the Rogue Isles, Villains wouldn't have had the same motivation.

Gaining Incarnate power is mentioned a lot by Prometheus in the intros and debriefings for the Trials, as well as the wider overview of the whole dimensional war storyline - and by defeating Tyrant and his loyalist thugs, you're defeating a force that was planning to kill you and everyone else who had superpowers if it won.

And at the same time helping twenty-three heroes gain the power they'd need to stop you. It's not a very good trick, at least not by itself. It's also a trick that players have to make up on their own - the game provides nothing of the sort, and precious little of "your own evil purposes" to follow up with.

Let me give an example of what might be an improvement - adding a single reference at the end of the Magisterium trial, but which shows up only for villain characters, to keeping the Quills of Jocas. While the heroes celebrate their victory over tyranny and injustice, the villains sneak away with one of the few things in the multiverse that can give them an edge over any other Incarnate. Nothing else about the trial would need to change, but suddenly villains tagged along not just "for the greater good" nor even for self-preservation or a Hybrid slot, but because they knew any method they could find to defeat Cole would work at least as well against those chumps back on Primal Earth.

You're exactly right.

However, evil fighting evil =/= evil fighting good. By your own words, Loyalists are evil.

So, villains are fighting evil, and whether you like it or not, they are helping save the day by proxy.

We're not asking for evil vs. evil. We're asking for evil vs. good, or at the very least, evil getting to do it's thing without a bunch of Well-juiced higher powers constantly nagging them to go fight the good fight. Seriously, let us blow up a high-rise or infect a group of our enemies with a viral anomaly! All it's been lately is high-ranking NPC groups (Menders, Vanguard, Midnight Squad) asking heroes to help and demanding that villains cooperate.

It's old. It's been old. It feels like every end-game content story arc was based off of the same Comic Book Madlib page.

"Our heroes find out about ________, the evil villain group from ________. In order to defeat them, the heroes must travel to _________ and fight their leader, __________. Villains can aid the heroes by fighting alongside them in __________. All participating heroes/villains will get _________ for a reward."


The powers themselves are never mentioned in a trial. No one ever says "Your Judgement ability is what led you to victory" or anything of the sort. The story of the trials is the fall of Praetoria.

Bingo.

That's why I was asking Dr. Aeon if Chimera made any reference to you "betraying" him by siding with her after you originally captued her for him.

I think that like the moral choice in Katie's original arc, it's probably better to just assume that everyone just did the right thing and helped Belladonna, rather than chosing the evil capturing option.

Why do people get mad when Batman does it then?

Which is the defeat of the Well's champion and his Well-empowered followers.

With enough prep time, you can believe that anything Batman does is fine.