The problem with how Tyrant is defeated.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-15 15:09 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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WEll, going by the op, because it didnt seem like a proper win because we didnt dominate him. To some eyes we "cheated"( i can see sun tzu and musashi miyamoto giggling at that concept) As has been mentioned by many people, the concept of a powerful villain being beaten by intelligent fighting over brute force has significant precedence, and the example he used is a character best known for being paint chip stupid, but i can see some of the point that if you view your character a a butt kicking force of nature, it may play against type to beat tyrant through craft rather than being a bipedal cement truck. as posi has mentioned though, thats what "the really hard way" is for.
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Why are we having a problem with a man that DROPPED A NUKE ON AN ENTIRE CITY FILLED WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE just so he could power himself up even more?
There are no niceties in that kind of a battle. You win however you can. Surviving proves you're better, not how you did it. |
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They did repeatedly establish that all the civilians had long since fled, which was the only reason Cole was willing to go that far.
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Why are we having a problem with a man that DROPPED A NUKE ON AN ENTIRE CITY FILLED WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE just so he could power himself up even more?
There are no niceties in that kind of a battle. You win however you can. Surviving proves you're better, not how you did it. |
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Except that doesn't line up at all with his battlecry of "By the power of Tartarus I call upon the souls of the dead!"
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Originally Posted by Green Bean
They did repeatedly establish that all the civilians had long since fled, which was the only reason Cole was willing to go that far.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Unless the power of Tartarus can't reach more than fifteen seconds back, there's plenty of dead souls to go around in Praetoria, what with most of the human race being destroyed by Hamidon, before even considering the hundreds of IDF and Carnival that died a stone's throw away on the same day.
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And this basically confirms that Tyrant DID kill innocents; even if the IDF and CoL and Resistance and D.U.S.T. were just unconscious, the nuke would have atomized them anyway and killed them. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Unless the power of Tartarus can't reach more than fifteen seconds back, there's plenty of dead souls to go around in Praetoria, what with most of the human race being destroyed by Hamidon, before even considering the hundreds of IDF and Carnival that died a stone's throw away on the same day.
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Also I'd love to see exactly where it's stated that Praetoria was evacuated.
Presuming the size of Praetoria (about the size of... Independence Port, really) is what it is, that nuke probably destroyed much more than just Nova. The Keyes Reactors are still standing as AM himself mentioned they were designed to withstand an explosion greater than one of them melting down (an event that would liquefy Neutropolis), but a nuclear strike is not that easily contained. I'd surmise that the entirety of Praetoria (Nova, Imperial, and Neutropolis) is now a radiated waste. On top of that, with the Hamidon at the sonic gates, where would the people of Praetoria have gone?
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Yes, if anyone at all was still present, the nuke definitely killed innocents. Not civilians, though.
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Don't quote me on this, but I think it was Word of God from the devs and exposition from folks like Prometheus.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Also I'd love to see exactly where it's stated that Praetoria was evacuated.
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That's one thing that bugs the **** out of me. This entire storyline has, for the most part, been told through exposition and Incarnate Trials. I miss the RWZ revamp. Amazing single player/small team story, awesome finale TF that only needed 8 players and wasn't required for the solo story, and amazing raid that was optional, not heavily dipped in writing, but still fun and amazing regardless.
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There's also the Emperor's Sword Incarnate arc, where the resistance have taken Imperial City completely and thus have little difficulty getting the citizens to safety.|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
Don't quote me on this, but I think it was Word of God from the devs and exposition from folks like Prometheus.
That's one thing that bugs the **** out of me. This entire storyline has, for the most part, been told through exposition and Incarnate Trials. I miss when GR gave me hope for an epic Praetorian storyline :\ |
Actually, I should take my Praetorian Stalker through that arc to see what Kang has to say...
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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It also left a lot of loose ends from the paths chosen in GR, since the writing went with... none of them, it feels like. A great example is DSL's post:|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
Don't quote me on this, but I think it was Word of God from the devs and exposition from folks like Prometheus.
That's one thing that bugs the **** out of me. This entire storyline has, for the most part, been told through exposition and Incarnate Trials. I miss the RWZ revamp. Amazing single player/small team story, awesome finale TF that only needed 8 players and wasn't required for the solo story, and amazing raid that was optional, not heavily dipped in writing, but still fun and amazing regardless. |
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
There's also the Emperor's Sword Incarnate arc, where the resistance have taken Imperial City completely and thus have little difficulty getting the citizens to safety.
Actually, I should take my Praetorian Stalker through that arc to see what Kang has to say... |
"I got better."
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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That was an incredible emotional moment. You're telling me it didn't happen??
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
If you played Responsibility Loyalist (a path that has been liberally crapped on since GR ended) you have to kill Kang to keep him from exposing Cole to Praetoria and causing mass riot. I wonder how Responsibility Loyalist characters would react when they found out that Kang somehow wasn't dead.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Kang is alive and well in Belladonna's arc - he even references the discovery of the invasion plans as the reason he had to join the Resistance.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
That was an incredible emotional moment. You're telling me it didn't happen??
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It's similar to the moral choice on Katie's first arc - the loyalist option, which is to re-enslave here and her friends, is ignored in First ward by presenting Katie as having been freed - which is the Warden choice.
Basically, there's only one real path through Praetoria, and that's the Warden path - the heroic path - which, strangely enough, is what I've been saying ever since GR first came out
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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As far as I know, it's not been stated for certain anywhere yet - but Tyrant's personal story mission says that everyone had fled Nova Praetoria once the Seer network was smashed on the MoM Trial, and the lore behind the new Tunnel system says that it was constructed to evacuate Praetoria - so it seems like it's a mater of timing as to if we managed to get people to safety or not before Tyrant threw his temper tantrum.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Also I'd love to see exactly where it's stated that Praetoria was evacuated.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Except the Responsibility arc is just as heroic. Why did the devs bother putting dynamic content into the game at all if the story had only one direction?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Kang is alive and well in Belladonna's arc - he even references the discovery of the invasion plans as the reason he had to join the Resistance.
It's similar to the moral choice on Katie's first arc - the loyalist option, which is to re-enslave here and her friends, is ignored in First ward by presenting Katie as having been freed - which is the Warden choice. Basically, there's only one real path through Praetoria, and that's the Warden path - the heroic path - which, strangely enough, is what I've been saying ever since GR first came out |
I was pretty baffled that Kang was in the first mission of Belladonna's arc, especially on my Responsibility Loyalist Praetorian Stalker. Seeing a ghost much? There's NO explanation for this either. Not even a "I wasn't actually dead" comment. Nope. He's just there, regardless of whether or not you put him in the ground.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Serving a dictatorship is never heroic |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Except the Responsibility arc is just as heroic.
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| Why did the devs bother putting dynamic content into the game at all if the story had only one direction? |
What makes Praetoria so special is that for the first time in the game, they actually created a non-permanent villain group - unlike all the other villains we fight, the loyalists and their evil empire are actually destroyed - this isn't like foiling the plans of Relcuse, or Nemesis, or Reichsman, where arresting them doesn't actually affect their followers or their power base or their ability to return in future content as if nothing had ever happened to them - this defeat of the loyalists is totally crushing on all level - there's no way back from the collapse of their dictatorship, and the meta-story has been permanently changed by our actions in the dimensional war to liberate the Praetorian people.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Except that's not at all what you're doing:|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Serving a dictatorship is never heroic
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Originally Posted by Final Responsibility Moral Choice
Handle the Invasion Yourself.
Stop Cole's Invasion without the people knowing. Aid the Loyalists. Letting the people know about this could throw Praetoria into sheer chaos. There could be riots in the streets and more people than ever joining the Resistance. People will die if this is let out. But then again, innocents will die both in Praetoria and Primal Earth if this war goes through. You'll have to prevent this news from getting out and then somehow find a way to stop this war yourself! (This is the final moral choice for the Responsibility line in Praetoria.) |
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
For flavor - the Praetorian storyline was always going to end up with a dimensional war - this is a combat based game, and peace treaties and truces don't really exist until someone's been beten down to 25% health
What makes Praetoria so special is that for the first time in the game, they actually created a non-permanent villain group - unlike all the other villains we fight, the loyalists and their evil empire are actually destroyed - this isn't like foiling the plans of Relcuse, or Nemesis, or Reichsman, where arresting them doesn't actually affect their followers or their power base or their ability to return in future content as if nothing had ever happened to them - this defeat of the loyalists is totally crushing on all level - there's no way back from the collapse of their dictatorship, and the meta-story has been permanently changed by our actions in the dimensional war to liberate the Praetorian people. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Don't froget that loyalists = Villains, so they do get kinda swept aside when it comes to writing major storylines |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
That's no reason to step on written content with the intent of "it never mattered anyway."
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Hello everyone!
I designed Belladonna's arc with the intention of catching the various cases that happened in Praetoria; for instance, Praetor Sinclair will speak to you differently in the final fight if you worked with him in Praetoria. Neat, huh? That all depends on it working properly, however!
Interrogator Kang was put in the first mission with the following branches:
- If you killed Kang, he won't show up.
- If you worked together with Kang, he'd recognize you.
- If you worked together with Kang and spared him, he'd recognize you.
- If you never saw Kang, he'd introduce himself normally.
If you've done the moral choice where you kill Kang and he's still showing up, please send in a bug report. Thanks!
Follow me on my blog or on twitter:
Dr. Aeon's Blog
Dr. Aeon's Twitter
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I'll send in a report when I'm home this evening; my 50 Nin/Nin Stalker killed Kang at the end of the Anti-Matter arc and he showed up and acted like we'd never met. Seems like it defaulted to the Primal greeting.
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Originally Posted by Dr. Aeon
If you've done the moral choice where you kill Kang and he's still showing up, please send in a bug report. Thanks!
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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...which, as you may recall, was the root complaint.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Don't froget that loyalists = Villains, so they do get kinda swept aside when it comes to writing major storylines
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It was in the very earliest beta build of GR - it's not like people couldn't see it coming |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
...which, as you may recall, was the root complaint.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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No, I mean that villains being swept aside has been the root complaint for the last several pages.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It was in the very earliest beta build of GR - it's not like people couldn't see it coming
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Does that cover capturing Belladonna for him in his GR arc?|
Originally Posted by Dr. Aeon
Praetor Sinclair will speak to you differently in the final fight if you worked with him in Praetoria. Neat, huh?
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Like does he reference the player's "betrayal", as the player is now fighting alongside Belladonna?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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In Cole's Personal Story, I think. (What, you didn't play Belladonna's arc before you ran the trial? Okay, I admit, I read it on the wiki myself...)|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Also I'd love to see exactly where it's stated that Praetoria was evacuated.
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As for the OP's feeling that the victory feels cheap - I'm guessing you weren't on any of the many early runs I tried which all failed because of the (still unfixed, to my knowledge) 16-target cap on the Well shifts? Bringing a couple of Masterminds or other pet users along, or just a full 24-man team of regular Incarnates who don't know when to put away their Lore pets, effectively turns any attempt into The Hard Way without actually awarding the badge.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Well, that's the only was for co-op content to function properly - there couldn't be a co-op Trial where the goal was to cause chaos and destruction in Praetoria, as Heroes wouldn't join it.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
No, I mean that villains being swept aside has been the root complaint for the last several pages.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Why are we having a problem with a man that DROPPED A NUKE ON AN ENTIRE CITY FILLED WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE just so he could power himself up even more?
There are no niceties in that kind of a battle. You win however you can. Surviving proves you're better, not how you did it.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.