First Ward First Impression (Possible Spoilers)
While they're awesome, they're also deliberately left unfinished, with players being kept from smashing the dictatorship and bringing the Praetors to justice - the 1-20 stories lay the groundwork for the Incarnate Trials, which provide the resolution to the storyline, where all the loyalist AVs and their evil empire that we couldn't defeat in GR are finally brought crashing down.
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You don't make players feel "as powerful as the NPC incarnates" by having them need 12-24 people to take down a single "non-incarnate" like Mother Mayhem or Marauder or whoever and then the same amount to take down Emperor Cole(another instance of Statesman being tougher than anybody else in game, since he didn't beat Hamidon when they had a truce).
They should have let incarnate players solo Emperor Cole, or group if they didn't have all the incarnate slots filled. That would have been smarter. You could choose how you want to tackle it and feel powerful.
It was the wrong way to do the story in this game.
Edit:
I also would have preferred some form of end to the story for non-VIPs as well.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I also would have preferred some form of end to the story for non-VIPs as well.
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![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The delusion that FW isn't a Resistance themed zone is just stiff-armer desperation.
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Yes, it is a Resistance zone, BUT the Resistance in that zone completely forget everything you ever did for them in the previous zones.
Noble savage and Katie Douglas, saved from the tunnels of Neutropolis and freed from the seer network respectively, completely forget they ever met you before, let alone that you saved them.
That's horrible storytelling.
How interesting. I was about to make a post on a similar topic. I've just run both First Ward and Night Ward back to back and although I was entertained, I left the zone asking, "So what?"
The problem I found was that both zones, if you'll forgive the abuse of the metaphor, fall between three stools. In trying to write one story for three different alignments, the Devs have failed to make it engaging on any front.
Primal heroes have no business in First Ward. We're recruited to help the poor people of First Ward but the majority of what we see out there has nothing to do with protecting the innocent and more to do with facing whatever foe is causing trouble next. The people in the zone make it quite clear over and over that you are an outsider and that you don't belong there. Through all the story arcs, none of them have any relevance to Primal affairs. Are you helping to diffuse the war between Primal and Praetoria? No. Are you recruiting their help? No. Are you taking down the machinations of Cole's regime? No. The only real 'Cole-aligned' presence in the zone are D.U.S.T. who are pretty much redshirted by the Apparitions the moment you meet them.
The story arcs never even try to suggest that anything you're encountering might be a threat to Primal earth. We know from Dark Astoria that they will be but there's nothing to suggest that in FW or NW. Plenty of opportunity, especially as the missions even send you back to Primal earth to speak to people who could warn you of the danger the Talons might become. But no, not even a squeak. In trying to make FW a continuation of Praetoria, they alienate any outsiders, making the whole affair irrelevant to Primal earth concerns.
Praetorians have no business there either. From any the four alignments in 1-20 Praetoria, FW and NW ignores at least two of them, possibly three. None of the returning contacts remember you or your actions (i.e. whether you betrayed them or helped them) and it's broadly assumed that you're there to help them, even if you consider that Cole was right to send all these people into oblivion. In trying to make the story open to outsiders from Primal, it fails to follow up on the great promise of 1-20 Praetoria where your decisions made a difference and makes massive assumptions about your motives for being there.
Primal villains have no business being there either. This one is enormously irritating to me. Aside from a few minor options to be more brutal towards your foes, both zones don't even try to cater to villains. There's not even the chance to seize power for yourself or the desultory offer of payment should you help. In trying to keep the story mostly heroic, villains are simply forgotten about as if they never existed.
Finally, and this is the most frustrating thing, the zones are beautifully crafted, the arcs fun and challenging and the characters (mostly) well written for a change (Master Midnight can die in a fire, permanently this time). Had these zones been part of Paragon or a contested island between the city and the Rogue Isles, it would have been far more relevant, far more interesting. But because the writers are trying to cater to all players, they end up catering for none. Had the zones remained co-op but had arcs for all three alignments, they could have been so much better. But instead, I just left them feeling that it was as if I had temporarily placed my character in a post-apocalyptic game rather than a superhero game for a short period.
My apologies if that came across as a rant but I do feel hugely disappointed in both zones. Just as I did when Cimerora came out, I remember that I play City of Heroes (and Villains) to be just that. The whole of Praetoria just seems to be the Dev's Folly and a huge waste of resources. A real pity.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
First, all villain groups are a danger to innocent people - and second, being a hero isn't restricted by national borders or dimensions.
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![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
The only way to explain villains there is "one person's villain is another's hero", like Scirocco maybe, but that doesn't work for the just plain evil.
That still doesn't explain primal villains going there, and only gives a reason why heroes from primal earth would go there, not much explanation for how the heck they learned of it(though you do get an out of the blue call from a contact
![]() The only way to explain villains there is "one person's villain is another's hero", like Scirocco maybe, but that doesn't work for the just plain evil. |
So far, what I've done with First Ward, I've enjoyed more than any other story arch I've done. As far as the contacts not recognizing you, I've always gotten the feeling that FW is set in another dimension, so these characters are mirror images of those you knew before, not actually the same person.
I've enjoyed the plot twists, the not really knowing who is on what side... it's all a matter of taste, I suppose.
I kind of like First Ward, if it hadn't been for Praetoria they'd have been my favourite arcs.
BUT after Praetoria they feel like a throwback, yesterday's way of storytelling in COH. They feel like the old COH arcs (albeit better written) but with none of the bells and whistles we had in Praetoria. (like persistence of choices, etc.)
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
I kind of like First Ward, if it hadn't been for Praetoria they'd have been my favourite arcs.
BUT after Praetoria they feel like a throwback, yesterday's way of storytelling in COH. They feel like the old COH arcs (albeit better written) but with none of the bells and whistles we had in Praetoria. (like persistence of choices, etc.) |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
As far as the contacts not recognizing you, I've always gotten the feeling that FW is set in another dimension, so these characters are mirror images of those you knew before, not actually the same person.
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![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The Resistance/loyalist dynamic from GR couldn't be supported past level 20 - the GR stories were written to pace the revelations of the evil of the dictatorship so that by 20 everyone would be against Tyrant.
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The GR stories are written so that by 20 everyone should either realize that invasion is a bad idea, but you might still be able to stop the conflict before it escalates, or that you just don't care. Since nothing ever mentions that choice ever again, I don't see why the dynamic couldn't have continued into FW.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Primal heroes have no business in First Ward. We're recruited to help the poor people of First Ward but the majority of what we see out there has nothing to do with protecting the innocent and more to do with facing whatever foe is causing trouble next. The people in the zone make it quite clear over and over that you are an outsider and that you don't belong there. Through all the story arcs, none of them have any relevance to Primal affairs. Are you helping to diffuse the war between Primal and Praetoria? No. Are you recruiting their help? No. Are you taking down the machinations of Cole's regime? No. The only real 'Cole-aligned' presence in the zone are D.U.S.T. who are pretty much redshirted by the Apparitions the moment you meet them.
The story arcs never even try to suggest that anything you're encountering might be a threat to Primal earth. We know from Dark Astoria that they will be but there's nothing to suggest that in FW or NW. Plenty of opportunity, especially as the missions even send you back to Primal earth to speak to people who could warn you of the danger the Talons might become. But no, not even a squeak. In trying to make FW a continuation of Praetoria, they alienate any outsiders, making the whole affair irrelevant to Primal earth concerns. |
So far as I'm concerned, tying First Ward and Night Ward to the Praetorian War would have been a mistake, since I'm ******* SICK of the Praetorian War and I like to think there's more to that particular storyline and that particular side than Marcus Cole. When it comes to heroes, you don't need a self-serving agenda in order to go to another dimension and help out. Run a few Portal Corp missions and you'll find yourself going to, say, a dimension ruled over by the Banished Pantheon to get people out of there. Why? How does that benefit the war against Cole or the fight in Dark Astoria? It doesn't, it's just the right thing to do. Then there's the dimension that Nemesis Rex took over, where we go to help the freedom fighters there take out a few Nemesis munitions depots. Why? How does that help us against the Coming Storm or the Rikti War? It doesn't, but it's what heroes do.
Hell, for the last 8 years, we've had precisely ZERO reason to go to the Shadow Shard other than because it's there. We don't know what this dimension is all about, we don't know what we'll find there, we don't know why Paragon City citizens live there... Sure, in recent years Rularuu has been big news, but back in 2004? "Hey, it's a new dimension, let's go explore it!" was the only reason we were given to care.
A hero doesn't need a reason to go to another dimension and help people. If you can't find a reason for your heroes to go there, then don't. No-one will hold it against them. But please don't act like your heroes are nothing more than soldiers in a war and anything that doesn't help in that war is not worth doing.
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When it comes to villains... Yeah, this here is a problem. Unlike heroes, villains DO need a reason to go places and do things. Heroes can do things "because it's right" but villains can't really afford to do things "because it's evil" if they want to be taken seriously. Villains are not the opposite of heroes, they're just people who put themselves before others, thus they need some sort of benefit in order to go to First Ward and Night Ward and help out. Sadly, the story really doesn't give a good enough motivation.
In fact, the Night Ward story really comes off like a hero arc that villains are just allowed to take part in, and occasionally be jerks about it. At the very worst, villains can help support Tyrant, which as motivations go is just another variant of "go there, do that, get paid." That's the prime reason I've had quite enough of co-op zones and feel very strongly that villains need at least one new zone all to themselves that heroes can't go to, just so that the stories in it can be purely tailored for the villain side of things. Because right now, co-op storylines are little more than hero storylines where the hero is allowed to also be a jerk, that villains can take part in.
Enough of the greater good already!
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In fact, the Night Ward story really comes off like a hero arc that villains are just allowed to take part in, and occasionally be jerks about it. At the very worst, villains can help support Tyrant, which as motivations go is just another variant of "go there, do that, get paid." That's the prime reason I've had quite enough of co-op zones and feel very strongly that villains need at least one new zone all to themselves that heroes can't go to, just so that the stories in it can be purely tailored for the villain side of things. Because right now, co-op storylines are little more than hero storylines where the hero is allowed to also be a jerk, that villains can take part in.
Enough of the greater good already! |
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
The GR stories are written so that by 20 everyone should either realize that invasion is a bad idea, but you might still be able to stop the conflict before it escalates, or that you just don't care. Since nothing ever mentions that choice ever again, I don't see why the dynamic couldn't have continued into FW.
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That it didn't, except in a rather broad way, and that certain missteps are made (characters not recognizing you, some rushed writing in places), is disappointing, but I still think FW and NW are some of the better content in the game currently.
Wow, yeah that protect the midnight mansion mission is a pain. I did fine until the 2 elite bosses showed up and just shredded my pets and proceeded to manhandle Ward. It should really just spawn -1- EB on basic settings ;p
I'm generally enjoying Night Ward as a continuation of First Ward, just started Sir Bedwr so interested to see how the story runs. I like the Animus Arcana and the zone has some interesting flair.
I am a little sad that it lacks -any- kind of tailored content for loyalists/resistance. First Ward at least had the 'newspaper' missions. This just gives everyone Sir Lionel and Atherton Cromwell, who -really- should've been split between hero/villain, cuz Cromwell really has -no- business being a hero contact.
So I just finished Katie Douglas. What the hell even happened with that arc?! "GO GET THE SEER NETWORK! OFFICER ORB! OH CRAP AWAKENED! Alright hang on let me do something to this giant Minority Report computer. Dum de dum de dum, alright, uh, we have to go break something so Duray shows up. Alright, kick his butt. Done? Good. Get the **** out of my face."
Seriously. I completed the whole arc and at the end of it all I didn't get a "well now that this is over with, the Compound can go do this" or a "thanks for the assist, dude, we can move forward now" or a "well I'm glad that's over, we can finally do this."
Nope. What'd I get? "This is where we part ways, (Fluidic). I don't need anything else from you, m'kay? It's really been a riot, but it's time for you to bother someone else." <--- Direct from Paragonwiki
What? I bust my *** for you and help you drive Apparitions out of the Seer Network and knock Duray a new one just to get told "screw off"? First Ward's writing is rapidly approaching the bottom of the list for me. This stuff makes no sense, ignores previous plots and accomplishments, and kicks you in the backside for actually playing it.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/HellkatPredator/2012%20Livestreams/ChompAeon.gif)
What? I bust my *** for you and help you drive Apparitions out of the Seer Network and knock Duray a new one just to get told "screw off"? First Ward's writing is rapidly approaching the bottom of the list for me. This stuff makes no sense, ignores previous plots and accomplishments, and kicks you in the backside for actually playing it.
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Now, I would have expected that First Ward would be a shock to Katie's system, so starting Night Ward by freeing her and responding to player request would see her revert to the Katie Douglass of Imperial City - a nicer, more positive character. You know, like what happened to the Prince of Persia from Sands of Time to Warrior Within to the Two Thrones. I don't actually know how that was resolved, but it seems to me that instead of fixing her character, that rotten version of her from First Ward has been taken as the base and made more unfriendly and unpleasant than even that. Thus, flanderization.
I'll have to run this for myself when I have more time and a character of the appropriate level, but this does not sound good.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This seems like cascade flanderization to me. The Katie Douglass of Imperial City was confused and tortured, but ultimately cheerful and very nice individual, bringing some positive emotions to the otherwise negative world of Praetoria City and leaving the player with a good feeling at the end of the day. The Katie Douglass of First Ward was, if you'll pardon my language, a right *****. The "confused and tortured" parts were left in even though she should realistically have gotten over it, yet the cheerful and positive sides of her were gone, leaving this whining, ungrateful, sarcastic brat worthy of standing in for Dominatrix as seen in Dark Astoria.
Now, I would have expected that First Ward would be a shock to Katie's system, so starting Night Ward by freeing her and responding to player request would see her revert to the Katie Douglass of Imperial City - a nicer, more positive character. You know, like what happened to the Prince of Persia from Sands of Time to Warrior Within to the Two Thrones. I don't actually know how that was resolved, but it seems to me that instead of fixing her character, that rotten version of her from First Ward has been taken as the base and made more unfriendly and unpleasant than even that. Thus, flanderization. I'll have to run this for myself when I have more time and a character of the appropriate level, but this does not sound good. |
I felt the same thing about Noble Savage. When we leave him with Scott and the Resistance, he basically tells us that he'll hang around to finger Berry for being a madman, but that he still isn't going to trust anyone just yet.
First Ward rolls around and Noble is basically a really confused Hulk. He spent the first few times I saw him running around and yelling like a confused gorilla, then when I put down the Hetman, he did the same exact thing: "I'll help but I don't trust you guys." Then out of nowhere, he becomes a tactical genius and sets up a plan to kick DUST out of the zone.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/HellkatPredator/2012%20Livestreams/ChompAeon.gif)
First ward was... Weird. It used recurring characters from 1-20 Praetoria, but it played them like completely different characters, or possibly as written by someone who's only ever heard that 1-20 Praetoria exists but never actually played them, getting all their information about a character from their models' in-game Info fields. It feels rather like how Donna Troy came to be, when a writer saw a cover with Wonder Woman and her younger self together, and assumed the "Wonder Girl" was her sidekick without actually reading the book.
I honestly feel that First Ward should have used brand new original charaters and not tried to One More Day existing ones, because it REALLY isn't working. People who don't know who Katie Douglass or Noble Savage or Vasilokos are aren't going to care that they're included, and those of us who played through the story arcs regarding these characters are left scratching our heads like chimpanzees.
*edit*
Just because I've always wanted to play that clip, having run First Ward and stopped to reflect on it made me feel a lot like the Spoony One reacting to the G-Man FPS X-Com game. Because... Honestly, Katie especially but all the others as well, are just a betrayal of their characterisation in 1-20 Praetoria... And I fear this will stick and only get worse in future storylines.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The Katie Douglass of First Ward was, if you'll pardon my language, a right *****. The "confused and tortured" parts were left in even though she should realistically have gotten over it, yet the cheerful and positive sides of her were gone, leaving this whining, ungrateful, sarcastic brat worthy of standing in for Dominatrix as seen in Dark Astoria.
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Now if you want to point out that this interpretation supports the idea that the arc was written assuming the character playing it was a Primal hero, I won't argue the point. On the other hand, presuming they didn't have the resources to provide three or more distinct adventure arcs (one for Primal heroes, one for Primal villains, and one or more for former Praetorians depending on which arcs the characters participated in), it makes sense to write for Primal heroes, as that's the largest population on pretty much every server.
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Pauper
Going to disagree pretty seriously here -- there's a reason she refers to you as 'killer' in her first few missions. Well meaning or not, your character pretty much undoes most of the good she's done since leaving Imperial City before you even meet her, so it shouldn't be surprising that she thinks of you as a clueless Primal when you finally meet her face-to-face. The point of her arc seems to be to change her opinion of you from outright hatred to grudging admiration, and I thought it was effective.
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Let's look at an example. Let's take, say, Doc Delilah and return her in the new Incarnate content, only she's not cheerful and upbeat, she's dark and brooding and likes to lash out at people for no reason. As soon as I yell "Betrayaaal! Be-traya!" a writer comes up and says "No, no, no. It makes sense. See, between appearances, Doc Delilah lost her loved ones to Arachnos and now she's angry at the world." OK... It makes sense, but... How is that a better story than having Doc Delilah show up as Doc Delilah, as opposed to Squall Lionheart playing Doc Delilah?
If you're going to change a character completely, why bother keep the name and the look. If you're going to make X-Com a Rainbow Six style FPS set in the 1960s, why even keep the name? Just start over, make a brand new character give him or her a brand new name and storyline and simply leave the old characters who ended on a positive note well enough alone. What, really, did First Ward gain by dragging Katie Douglass into everything, other than name recognition, when it's a different character posing as her?
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Noble Savage is a Warden too, and he runs the security of the compound after the Crusader who held the post is removed.
Resistance fighters around the compound also have non-aggressive coding, and the Resistance contact Roadflare also lives at the compound, and, according to his bio:
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork