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If those enemies are going to be debuffing your defense....wouldn't you want to make it as difficult for them to hit you as possible? |
Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
Seeing as how WP only has a 21.6% Defense Debuff Resistance you are going to have those defenses dropped in a heart beat by the enemies that do mostly S/L Damage to begin with.
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Because logic dictates that an enemy with a debuff attached to an attack has to be able to hit you before that debuff will affect you. 5% chance to hit = 5% chance to debuff in this case.
You're talking here like those enemies are going to ignore your defense and debuff everything away no matter what you do.
Also, if you're so fatalistic with the "It's going to be debuffed away anyway" mindset...why are you even bothering with ANY defense?
If my Regen scrapper gained survivability by soft-capping S/L defense, I can't help but think a WP tank would gain more. Especially seeing as how a WP tank gets 21.6% more debuff resistance than my scrapper does.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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My point exactly.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If those enemies are going to be debuffing your defense....wouldn't you want to make it as difficult for them to hit you as possible?
Because logic dictates that an enemy with a debuff attached to an attack has to be able to hit you before that debuff will affect you. 5% chance to hit = 5% chance to debuff in this case. You're talking here like those enemies are going to ignore your defense and debuff everything away no matter what you do. Also, if you're so fatalistic with the "It's going to be debuffed away anyway" mindset...why are you even bothering with ANY defense? If my Regen scrapper gained survivability by soft-capping S/L defense, I can't help but think a WP tank would gain more. Especially seeing as how a WP tank gets 21.6% more debuff resistance than my scrapper does. |
5% chance to hit does not take into consideration +1, 2, 3, or 4. That is for even con minions. Also it doesn't take into consideration Lt., Boss, EB, or AV. The higher up you go the more chance they get to hit you. To be soft-capped to an AV you have to have 59% defense. You also haven't taken into consideration any buffs/debuffs the enemies have at their disposal as well. When it comes to Defense it's better to have an AT that is designed for Defense as those have the higher resistance to Defense Debuff.
Defense is great, as I've said. But put a SR Tank and a WP Tank in a mob of Cimerorans and watch how fast the WP Tank's Defense gets shot to hell. Furthermore, put a WP Tank designed with Defense in mind vs. one that has better Resists and higher Regen and see which one will last longer.
That's the problem I see in a lot of Resist builds now. People think that Defense is the best route to go. If you don't get hit, you don't take damage. Unfortunately you are going to get get hit, and when that defense cascade fails on you you are going to take damage like crazy.
Build to the strengths of the Powerset. If you have Elec, Fire, or Dark build towards Resist caps and healing. If you have Ice, Shields, or SR build for soft-capped Defenses and some Resists. If you have Invuln you can build for both Resist and Defense caps. If you have Stone you'll obviously build for Perma-Granite. Will Power is a jack of all trades and a master of none, it's strength lies in it's ability to Regen.
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Send me a postcard from the hospital
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Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
Build to the strengths of the Powerset. If you have Elec, Fire, or Dark build towards Resist caps and healing
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[Union Chat]Sebaddon: If you want to, we will, if you think it's weird, no, that's damz, not us.
[Union Chat]Damz: hey cyber, i am your naked pope for the evening, please confess to me my child
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This is incorrect. To be soft-capped to an AV in non-incarnate play you need 45% defense, just the same as for every other critter. An even-level AV will have a slightly higher chance of hitting you, (7.5% vs 5.0% for an even level minion) but due to the way ToHit and accuracy are calculated, adding defense past 45% won't reduce that 7.5% at all. |
Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
5% chance to hit does not take into consideration +1, 2, 3, or 4. That is for even con minions. Also it doesn't take into consideration Lt., Boss, EB, or AV. The higher up you go the more chance they get to hit you. To be soft-capped to an AV you have to have 59% defense.
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Other than for incarnate trials and to offset defense debuffs, the only other reason you would need more defense than 45% is if you are fighting critters that are far enough above you level-wise that ToHit buffs kick in. And most players don't regularly fight at level +6.
Players opt to build for defense because a) it has a huge impact on survivability and b) it is much easier to add a significant amount of defense than it is to increase resistance values. The fact that there are circumstances under which it doesn't work as well as one would like doesn't change the fact that most of the time adding defense is tremendously effective.
EDIT: Just to be completely clear, even though there are level and rank-based accuracy bonuses as you suggest, since they are accuracy bonuses rather than tohit bonuses, additional defense doesn't help at all.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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My soft-capped WP build with 70+% S/L resist AND 833% regen on 3233 HP says: "I'll take that challenge" |
Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
Defense is great, as I've said. But put a SR Tank and a WP Tank in a mob of Cimerorans and watch how fast the WP Tank's Defense gets shot to hell. Furthermore, put a WP Tank designed with Defense in mind vs. one that has better Resists and higher Regen and see which one will last longer.
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| That's the problem I see in a lot of Resist builds now. People think that Defense is the best route to go. If you don't get hit, you don't take damage. Unfortunately you are going to get get hit, and when that defense cascade fails on you you are going to take damage like crazy. |
My WP build I mentioned above? I soft-capped it without sacrificing reisistance or regen. Its regen is 833% with only 1 enemy in range of RttC, and it's sitting at over 70% to S/L resistance. But, its E/N/F/C reisistance is only at 10-12% or so, which means if I fight something like Mu or Freakshow, I better hope I have some Energy defense or it's gonna hurt. Also, electric attacks can't drain your endurance if they can't hit you to do so.
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| Build to the strengths of the Powerset. If you have Elec, Fire, or Dark build towards Resist caps and healing. |
If you are getting hit 50% of the time with 60-70% resistance and a heal, you are going to die MUCH faster than the guy who is getting hit 5% of the time with 50-60% resistance and the same heal.
Not opinion, not even subjective at all. Stone cold FACT.
It is nearly impossible to build toward the resistance cap on most damage types on a resist based build. Pit your low defense Dark Armor build against a crowd of Mu and tell me how that works out for you. Adding defense is the only way to not end up using Soul Transfer quite a bit in that situation.
Sorry, I'm normally not this judgemental about anyone, but that post has proven to me that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Because building towards resistance caps is "nearly impossible".
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...32FE07401DE540
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...86F13F98CAE0C0
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...D4F51F87AAF770
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...F4F21F577DE7A3
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Alright...that was just bad wording on his part...though I don't think he meant for it to be taken literally.|
Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
Because building towards resistance caps is "nearly impossible".
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Obviously it's possible to build "towards" the resistance caps.
That being said...building towards softcap defenses is most definitely the better way to go with most builds...in my opinion.
I can only speak for myself...but WP is amazing with high defense.
And THAT is the key phrase there. "In my opinion." To tell me that I am wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about........I never said that building for defense is wrong and stupid. It's my opinion that you should build for the strengths of the powerset as I said. Never said anybody was wrong or that they didn't know what they were talking about or doing. My way works too, it's just not YOUR way.
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Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
5% chance to hit does not take into consideration +1, 2, 3, or 4. That is for even con minions. Also it doesn't take into consideration Lt., Boss, EB, or AV. The higher up you go the more chance they get to hit you. To be soft-capped to an AV you have to have 59% defense.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
This is incorrect. To be soft-capped to an AV in non-incarnate play you need 45% defense, just the same as for every other critter. An even-level AV will have a slightly higher chance of hitting you, (7.5% vs 5.0% for an even level minion) but due to the way ToHit and accuracy are calculated, adding defense past 45% won't reduce that 7.5% at all.
Other than for incarnate trials and to offset defense debuffs, the only other reason you would need more defense than 45% is if you are fighting critters that are far enough above you level-wise that ToHit buffs kick in. And most players don't regularly fight at level +6. *snip* EDIT: Just to be completely clear, even though there are level and rank-based accuracy bonuses as you suggest, since they are accuracy bonuses rather than tohit bonuses, additional defense doesn't help at all. |
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Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
And THAT is the key phrase there. "In my opinion." To tell me that I am wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about.......
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Regardless of the opinions of building for defense versus resistance, it should be noted and acknowledged that the way level ranks used to work (what you posted) and the way they now work (and have worked for quite some time now, as Finduilas posted) are vastly different.
Anyone still working on outdated defense versus level mechanics needs to go find Arcanaville's signature and read her (now kinda old) posts on how it actually works in game today. Finduilas gave a nice, very basic overview in her correction, but Arcanaville's post is very detailed and specific.
I will agree to that sir. I may be still working with outdated info regarding to-hit and accuracy when it comes to the enemies in the game. I don't claim to know everything. That was the info I was given at one time and nobody has bothered to correct me on that until now.
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I understand what you're saying...however, your post did come across as more than just an opinion.|
Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
And THAT is the key phrase there. "In my opinion." To tell me that I am wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about........I never said that building for defense is wrong and stupid. It's my opinion that you should build for the strengths of the powerset as I said. Never said anybody was wrong or that they didn't know what they were talking about or doing. My way works too, it's just not YOUR way.
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It does read as if you're saying their way is wrong and your way is right...so you can understand why someone would interpret it that way.
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Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
Defense is great, as I've said. But put a SR Tank and a WP Tank in a mob of Cimerorans and watch how fast the WP Tank's Defense gets shot to hell. Furthermore, put a WP Tank designed with Defense in mind vs. one that has better Resists and higher Regen and see which one will last longer.
That's the problem I see in a lot of Resist builds now. People think that Defense is the best route to go. If you don't get hit, you don't take damage. Unfortunately you are going to get get hit, and when that defense cascade fails on you you are going to take damage like crazy. |
This is a big clue as to why building for layered mitigation works so well on other sets. This is why people suggest building for defense on resistance sets.
Again though...as was said...these are all opinions...and people play the game differently.
To each their own.
And I can see where it might come across like that as well. I was merely trying to defend myself on my way of doing it vs. their way of doing it. Pointing out what I thought about it and giving examples.
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I can under stand that, and respect your opinion. I was also pointing out that you like to use alot of PvP and purples in your set which some can not afford yes we can convert some of them but that can take time and u can run out of converters for them. I have a few things that I am still trying to convert, and have not had many success on getting the converters to do so. Not to mention u implied the build i did for the OP was a bad build and yours was better in a round about way. |
Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
And I can see where it might come across like that as well. I was merely trying to defend myself on my way of doing it vs. their way of doing it. Pointing out what I thought about it and giving examples.
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And to cauldrone, fin is a female for future ref
PvP IO's and Purple IO's are not as expensive as they used to be. Before the Converters came out I would never include any PvP IO's or Purples for that reason. Now, however, it's not that difficult to play the market to build up your inf or build a Fire/SS Brute and charge 300 mill per run on a Cave Farm. Inf is really not that difficult to come by if you try hard enough to get it.
I never said your build was a bad build. Ever. I stated that here is my .02 inf and posted my build which you immediately responded and tore apart. I then proceeded to defend myself on it. I even kept saying that building for defense was okay, never said it was bad. I was merely defending my view point on the subject. I have built many Tanks as a member of the RO Network and had many people come to me for advice on them. Nobody has ever said my builds were terrible and that I didn't know what I was doing. I've had quite the opposite reaction.
I understand wanting to build for defense, don't get me wrong. But there are more than two ways to skin a cat. I used to rely heavily on building for Defense until I noticed my Tanks were getting ripped apart by enemies that have a ton of Defense Debuff and shred those defenses faster than I can pop Healing Flames, Dull Pain, or any other form of self heal. So I switched to a different stance and started building my Tanks based off of their particular strengths they can play to. As you'll notice, I do put some form of Defense in the build to try to mitigate some of the incoming damage. I just don't focus heavily on trying to soft-cap them anymore as what is the use of having fully soft-capped defenses if you have nothing to keep those defenses from being tore down in a matter of seconds.
Yes I know it sounds like I'm saying that you will always be hit and have your defenses shredded no matter what. I know this is not always true either. But when it happens, boy does it happen. Like someone else said Defense is great for Miss, Miss, Miss, Miss, FACEPLANT! And that is how it goes with any Toon based off of Defense. You tool around just fine for a while, but once it goes south, it goes south FAST. This has been my experience and this is why I now build the way I do. I would rather have the high resistance so I don't take as much damage when I get hit as trying to rely on never getting hit and taking a crapton of damage when I do get hit.
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Correction made. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by LSK
And to cauldrone, fin is a female for future ref
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Ok first I never been good at playing the market, 2 GET OUT OF AP. One of the things that I really hate is having some one who has no idea how to play there toon joining a team im on because they PLed there toon,, or brag how many lvl 50s they have and do not know where PI or GV is or try to get on an ITF just to find out they do not have access and has no idea how to get there in the first place. I like to avoid AE farms ty very much.
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Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
PvP IO's and Purple IO's are not as expensive as they used to be. Before the Converters came out I would never include any PvP IO's or Purples for that reason. Now, however, it's not that difficult to play the market to build up your inf or build a Fire/SS Brute and charge 300 mill per run on a Cave Farm. Inf is really not that difficult to come by if you try hard enough to get it.
I never said your build was a bad build. Ever. I stated that here is my .02 inf and posted my build which you immediately responded and tore apart. I then proceeded to defend myself on it. I even kept saying that building for defense was okay, never said it was bad. I was merely defending my view point on the subject. I have built many Tanks as a member of the RO Network and had many people come to me for advice on them. Nobody has ever said my builds were terrible and that I didn't know what I was doing. I've had quite the opposite reaction. I understand wanting to build for defense, don't get me wrong. But there are more than two ways to skin a cat. I used to rely heavily on building for Defense until I noticed my Tanks were getting ripped apart by enemies that have a ton of Defense Debuff and shred those defenses faster than I can pop Healing Flames, Dull Pain, or any other form of self heal. So I switched to a different stance and started building my Tanks based off of their particular strengths they can play to. As you'll notice, I do put some form of Defense in the build to try to mitigate some of the incoming damage. I just don't focus heavily on trying to soft-cap them anymore as what is the use of having fully soft-capped defenses if you have nothing to keep those defenses from being tore down in a matter of seconds. Yes I know it sounds like I'm saying that you will always be hit and have your defenses shredded no matter what. I know this is not always true either. But when it happens, boy does it happen. Like someone else said Defense is great for Miss, Miss, Miss, Miss, FACEPLANT! And that is how it goes with any Toon based off of Defense. You tool around just fine for a while, but once it goes south, it goes south FAST. This has been my experience and this is why I now build the way I do. I would rather have the high resistance so I don't take as much damage when I get hit as trying to rely on never getting hit and taking a crapton of damage when I do get hit. |
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But if you can have high resistance AND soft capped defenses......why wouldn't you?
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Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
Yes I know it sounds like I'm saying that you will always be hit and have your defenses shredded no matter what. I know this is not always true either. But when it happens, boy does it happen. Like someone else said Defense is great for Miss, Miss, Miss, Miss, FACEPLANT! And that is how it goes with any Toon based off of Defense. You tool around just fine for a while, but once it goes south, it goes south FAST. This has been my experience and this is why I now build the way I do. I would rather have the high resistance so I don't take as much damage when I get hit as trying to rely on never getting hit and taking a crapton of damage when I do get hit.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Gaining influence is not hard to do.
I don't play the market for profit. I don't powerlevel. I haven't done any team farming in nearly 4 years. I have somewhere around 7 Billion influence spread over the servers I've played on. That isn't a huge amount when compared to some others, but it seems like enough to put together a few decent builds. I do of course have the bonus of 5 racks full of Set enhancements and a rack nearly full of Purples that I have saved up for when I decide I do want to "spiff up" an alt I enjoy playing.
I got the minor pile of inf and other goodies by playing my 50's alot, selling cheap salvage and recipes that drop at wherever I can get the most for them, and having two alts with all the crafting badges. Drop salvage off at a personal base, look to see what is selling for more than it cost to craft the common IO, grab it from the base and head to RWZ where you can craft and have easy access to the Auction.
I average 3.5-4 million a run while doing an ITF with a level 50. By now most people can run an ITF even with bozo's on the team. Just need to convince everyone to clear to the end instead of skip everything not required.
BTW, not every mission in the AE is a farm, too many are but not all. Running a mission there can get you salvage to use or sell, plus the Inf from running. Win/Win as far as I can see. If you want a challenge, run Training Day by Alty. I can't imagine anyone trying to farm that one.
Hey all, thanks for all of the critique and general tanking discussion. I read each post carefully.
So, after taking your suggestions into account and a little bit of tweaking I've come up with the build that will usher me into my first level 50 tank (which will happen tonight!). It's worth noting that I'm operating on an influence stash that never seems to get much higher than 120'ish million, and my picks reflect that. Restrictions included:
-No PvP or Purple IOs
-Flight was a must
-No Hasten
-I really like Repulsing Torrent :3
Unfortunately had to mule IOs into Kick to get S/L up there, but with this El Cheapo build I have S/L/E/N soft-capped, 750% regen, 4.53/s recovery (1.46/s drain), and 3211 HP (hoping that 1 HP doesn't come back to haunt me 
).
I'll be able to reclaim slots and pump more into resists/regen down the road once I'm able to get my hands on some of the good stuff, but this has been working out pretty well for me thus far. Thanks again!
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1525;721;1442;HEX;| |78DA6594DB4F134114C667B70BB537A0964BA150DA522885B250F55963048D0AA68| |84A62629A15465858B765BB4679F45D1FD4071FD4684CD4C4075FD4F80F7903F1F2| |1FD4C39E8FD2A49BC06FF6CCD96FBE3967A60BF766C31FCEDD3F2594F019CBA8D5C| |A570C7B533AFE4B867BC7312C414F64D97056A59DBA2E5D2375CC4F9138279567E5| |2D69D7A4BE6C5A56B572573A094C2C484B4AFDA2694BD75C299F765D6365337ADE5| |E978EB45DFD601029552A967ED65C5B774D7B2DC46FD6FE6BD81BCF4BA34A139D07| |2FABD2A9AD9BD5D85CD55CD1E76CE9AC6D97178C9A2B9DED38B9CAD3DFD700FD53F| |65DD77D629106454DA857C125E290263AFA981B5181A7AE891221A3096D11BCCC6C| |5F62F66E084FE31BE92BD0579234C869E2C830986606334C8BF47DD0F7413F08FD3| |0F4C3D08F43FF3BE9B7B1BEDA06FF5D4BCCA3D8C70FCAF123C7DF83B96E667717F3| |27E5043CA3755FA0C8DA1D077AD0C96639AE524B43ECD31782CF347CA6E1330B9F2| |1CA8D70AE88247CDEF7B7699F9D1C6BEBB4552F365801ABCCE416E88035E60EF98C| |622FD1071CEB7EC48C3F64DAA41F83BFD847F69CFEC41CF90C7E61EE925E0FFAD38| |35AF4469903A8D5006A5521DD3ED655FB26F9FBE967B4668CF89CE9A3FDF643AF3F| |C9E7660CFD1E439F73E87B95F412E8776247F57253BBCC915FCCEC1E736A8BD7D34| |87F08FA43F09B8F81F09987EF3DDADB306A3F5C10DE9A5BB46606B5CFBC60CDDC2B| |E6C46BF01DF8965978C374E8DB51F81D45DFC7D0F702FA5E40DFA736700FC8EF38F| |B55C69382F7027F519A9BC4DC24F652C4DC4B3A2A3ABCEBA8F57B3A4833C89F39C9| |B52D665973506BDC4D7AE7FCBCD6B8DBF589E6F93A3D62A625526C891C6F899C688| |9CC3747A678E592868529A6C07DA0AB71BBEBBF838D5F05A1E09BBF87314DB9C027| |A4FD1A5723871B388D1B59C44DFCD3AC33CEB17F87315579CC3722F5047CCA2C05F| |76BC85E8CA6F1CDA6F18DA6F17FE03CE055| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Warden Zeta -- Kokopella -- The Speed Trial
@Kokopelli
Just a quick note on Regen. It's not the % of Regen that is important but the amount of HP. The more HP you have the higher the amount of hp regenerated per second. For example: 100% Regen of 3000 hp would regen 30 hp, where 100% Regen of 3500 hp would regen 35 hp. Sometimes people get it confused and think that they need to have the higher Regen%. That is why I emphasized trying to max out the HP on my build for the higher hp/s regen capability.
Ahhh damn, I was operating on old info that had the cap still placed at 3212 instead of the 3500'ish that it's at now. Blaming google for that one.
Warden Zeta -- Kokopella -- The Speed Trial
@Kokopelli
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Ok a few things you are a melee toon, both Kick and Repulsing Torrent are both KB attacks not good for a melee toon, even worse for a melee toon who needs enemy's to be near to get the best out of what you are playing.
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Originally Posted by Beliel
Hey all, thanks for all of the critique and general tanking discussion. I read each post carefully.
So, after taking your suggestions into account and a little bit of tweaking I've come up with the build that will usher me into my first level 50 tank (which will happen tonight!). It's worth noting that I'm operating on an influence stash that never seems to get much higher than 120'ish million, and my picks reflect that. Restrictions included: -No PvP or Purple IOs -Flight was a must -No Hasten -I really like Repulsing Torrent :3 Unfortunately had to mule IOs into Kick to get S/L up there, but with this El Cheapo build I have S/L/E/N soft-capped, 750% regen, 4.53/s recovery (1.46/s drain), and 3211 HP (hoping that 1 HP doesn't come back to haunt me ).I'll be able to reclaim slots and pump more into resists/regen down the road once I'm able to get my hands on some of the good stuff, but this has been working out pretty well for me thus far. Thanks again! |
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This is wrong. |
Originally Posted by oOStaticOo
Just a quick note on Regen. It's not the % of Regen that is important but the amount of HP. The more HP you have the higher the amount of hp regenerated per second. For example: 100% Regen of 3000 hp would regen 30 hp, where 100% Regen of 3500 hp would regen 35 hp. Sometimes people get it confused and think that they need to have the higher Regen%. That is why I emphasized trying to max out the HP on my build for the higher hp/s regen capability.
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You regenerate 5% of your Max HP per tick. This does not change.
The regeneration percentage is how FAST those ticks come, not how much you regenerate per tick. 100% regeneration is the normal regeneration speed. 750% regeneration means those ticks come 750% faster.
High max HP IS good, but not for the reason you're saying here.
Read up on it here: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Health_Regeneration
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Soft-capped defenses are great, don't get me wrong, but are pretty useless when you have no Defense Debuff Resistance to it. Seeing as how WP only has a 21.6% Defense Debuff Resistance you are going to have those defenses dropped in a heart beat by the enemies that do mostly S/L Damage to begin with. And that is where having a higher Damage Resistance comes heavily into play.
So basically the difference between your build and my build is you have a net difference of .47/s End Usage vs. mine, a 6 hp/s regen fewer vs. mine, soft-capped S/L Defense vs. mine, 200 fewer HP vs. mine, and yours is a cheaper build vs. mine.
And this makes my build terrible?