So what to do with Tyrant?
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-05-30 14:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
That doesn't mean that they can't be improved in some way - Tyrant and the loyalists can never be fully trusted because of the evil that they've done - but they can still be made better than they are now, which will help everyone, including them.
|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
But you just said that such people are permanently morally questionable, never again to be trusted.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Right, kind of like how the executions ordered by the Nuremberg trials made the Allies just as bad as the Nazis.| Killing him would lower us to his level. |
Oh, wait.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
Are you new around here? |
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
That's a very black and white perspective of the world.
|
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
How do you solve a problem like Tyrant?
How do you catch a cloud and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means Tyrant?
A flibbertijibbet! A will-o'-the wisp! A clown!
"This snippet was brought to you by the Players for Clown MMs coalition."
Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit
Quote:
Hardly. I've probably been around longer than you, actually. |
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Are you new around here?
|
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
Quote:
It was a specific reminder of who you were chatting with. |
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
Hardly. I've probably been around longer than you, actually.
|
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
Quote:
Essentially, this conundrum, that he cannot be trusted, even if he is rehabilitated and becomes a hero, makes him the in-game version of Statesman Sucks. Now the characters will have just as much mixed hate for him as the playerbase did for Statesman.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That doesn't mean that they can't be improved in some way - Tyrant and the loyalists can never be fully trusted because of the evil that they've done - but they can still be made better than they are now, which will help everyone, including them.
|
Frankly, I think Tyrant would prefer death.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Quote:
I'm afraid you lost me.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
It was a specific reminder of who you were chatting with.
|
And seconded on Mr_Grey.
And speaking of morally ambiguous characters - compared to my example, Lady Grey is a complete monster. She is probably still in that Vanguard Cell torturing the everliving crap out of Darren Wade even as we speak and yet I think there's still the general consensus that she's on our (or at least humanity's) side. Manitcore (thought he) killed Protean. He's still in the Freedom Phalanx. Good people do bad things, that's just how the world works. We try to make ourselves better people tomorrow for the things we failed to be better people at today because large and wide we are creatures of passion first and logic second, in spite of how we struggle against that nature.
And if you think Lady Grey is bad, just imagine how they torture people in Arachnos. Now THERE'S a whole different sense of scale for you.
But let's be honest people - Tyrant was a despot. His fate is pretty clear: our government has captured and executed despots as recently as half a decade ago, so no moral higher ground to be found there. The only reason Tyrant might still be alive in 6 months is because they can't find a way to kill him since a ground-zero nuclear blast sure as hell didn't do the trick. Twice. And I'm pretty sure the last time he was captured they had a rough time just keeping him contained at all. Even without the power of the Champion, he's still one of the most powerful metahumans in the multiverse barring ourselves and he's not above murder to enforce his twisted vision on the masses. And this scenario is considering that Prometheus and his "organization" don't want to keep Tyrant shackled on their own turf due to the threat he represents, which could lead to some... interesting political ramifications.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
Quote:
There's been no indication that Darrin Wade is immune to mind reading, so there's no reason why Penny Yin couldn't discover all his secrets wihtout anyone needing to lay a figner on him. |
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
And speaking of morally ambiguous characters - compared to my example, Lady Grey is a complete monster. She is probably still in that Vanguard Cell torturing the everliving crap out of Darren Wade even as we speak and yet I think there's still the general consensus that she's on our (or at least humanity's) side.
|
Quote:
| And if you think Lady Grey is bad, just imagine how they torture people in Arachnos. Now THERE'S a whole different sense of scale for you. |
Quote:
| The only reason Tyrant might still be alive in 6 months is because they can't find a way to kill him since a ground-zero nuclear blast sure as hell didn't do the trick. Twice. And I'm pretty sure the last time he was captured they had a rough time just keeping him contained at all. Even without the power of the Champion, he's still one of the most powerful metahumans in the multiverse barring ourselves and he's not above murder to enforce his twisted vision on the masses. And this scenario is considering that Prometheus and his "organization" don't want to keep Tyrant shackled on their own turf due to the threat he represents, which could lead to some... interesting political ramifications. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I think that the final conditions of the Trial make it pretty clear he's no longer anywhere near the same level of power that the average hero is at level 50. The Well sees he's fighting a losing battle and ports out. He's severed. Statesman was still bonded when he was killed.
Execution is still perfectly viable...
But I think I'll roll with Golden Girl in my final assessment. Executing him might not be wise. He may not be a believer in free will. He may think we're a group of psychotic savages.
But Primal Earth is his home now and it's under just as much threat as Praetoria ever was. Maybe even more, not including the "dangerously chaotic" elements.
He may have a purpose here. Maybe we just need to wait and see.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Quote:
I would put a bullet in Tyrant's brain even if the supernatural entity of your choice said it was a certain fact that he was the only thing standing between earth and the Battalion.
|
But Primal Earth is his home now and it's under just as much threat as Praetoria ever was. Maybe even more, not including the "dangerously chaotic" elements. He may have a purpose here. Maybe we just need to wait and see. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
Be honest, Venture, you say stuff like that about EVERY character in this game. It makes it hard to take this attitude seriously when you're the one giving voice to it.
|
Originally Posted by Venture
I would put a bullet in Tyrant's brain even if the supernatural entity of your choice said it was a certain fact that he was the only thing standing between earth and the Battalion.
|
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
I will restate that the corruption within the praetorian regime came from the people serving under tyrant, not cole himself. he so much as states it in his own friggin personal story.
anyway he is useless now and not even on the same level as the player incarnates and I expect him to die in some sort of fashion to 'redeem' himself. I doubt any hero will try to off him considering they are fine with playing buddy with the resistance that is running around destroying the city as well as the multitude of villain incarnates. Recluse might off him though
Quote:
Seems weird that every single one of the Praetors he chose turned out to be insanely evil - or that he wasn't able to spot that at any meeting of the Praeors, or that he wasn't aware of what they were doing during all the years the loyalist dictatorship existed.
|
Originally Posted by G_Savior
I will restate that the corruption within the praetorian regime came from the people serving under tyrant, not cole himself.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Which is why I'm glad you're not the one telling the story.|
Originally Posted by Venture
I would put a bullet in Tyrant's brain even if the supernatural entity of your choice said it was a certain fact that he was the only thing standing between earth and the Battalion.
|
Considering you seem to hate everything about the writing from GR onward (maybe further back?), I fail to see why you even comment much anymore. We get it, you have a ridiculously extreme opinion of just how much you hate the writing.
Anyway, back on topic, I wouldn't kill him. His personal story makes it clear he disapproved of his Praetors all being egotistical maniacs, especially Tilman for trying to mind control the populace after the TPN. Their punishment it seems was him NOT rendering them any actual physical aid when we assaulted them.
He only came down from his throne because we came right to his doorstep telling him his time was up.
Quote:
GG has never had anything but a black and white view of the world. Thus my joking that you were new here when you expected anything different from her. And all the winkies, because GG throws them around like candy.
|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
I'm afraid you lost me.
|
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
Quote:
Actually, he was KEENLY aware.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Seems weird that every single one of the Praetors he chose turned out to be insanely evil - or that he wasn't able to spot that at any meeting of the Praeors, or that he wasn't aware of what they were doing during all the years the loyalist dictatorship existed.
|
He just thought he could reign them in. Or that their proclivities would be minor and wouldn't make much of an impact.
Calvin Scott, deluded or not, was able to build an army out of the people who were wronged by the Praetors.
Now look what happened...
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Quote:
Bingo. Praetorian Marcus Cole is a man who traded in his principles in an attempt to preserve the greater good and save humanity. As I've invoked many times in relation to him, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". |
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Actually, he was KEENLY aware.
He just thought he could reign them in. Or that their proclivities would be minor and wouldn't make much of an impact. |
Of course, some members of our community
don't see that because to them, if you're not a paragon of morality, you're just a dirty villain.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
Quote:
Hardly. I'm indifferent to most of them.| Be honest, Venture, you say stuff like that about EVERY character in this game. |
I actually like some, like Crimson, but then he's clearly being played by Samuel M**********ing Jackson. I used to like Penelope Yin, until she was made the new Wesley.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
He was still level 50 (-4) with his powers intact after we cut off his connection, so either he was temporarily weakened or some part of his original power level was compromised. Regardless, he's still got the Zeus. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's not clear yet if cutting him off from the Well simply removed his extra power as its champion, or if it totally removed all his power, as that also came from the Well - it's quite possible that Tyrant has been reduced to the status of a normal human now - in which case he could be taken care of by a couple of PPD officers and a set of handcuffs.
|
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
Quote:
Actually, Calvin Scott's delusion has EVERYTHING to do with it. And why the "Or not?" It's clear in retrospect that he was in fact delusional and that, like Posi said, there were subtle hints of that delusion all over the place. And one of Calvin's primary driving reasons for founding and leading the Resistance was in fact that specific delusion (that he was married to Aurora Borealis).|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Actually, he was KEENLY aware.
He just thought he could reign them in. Or that their proclivities would be minor and wouldn't make much of an impact. Calvin Scott, deluded or not, was able to build an army out of the people who were wronged by the Praetors. Now look what happened... |
So really, had Calvin Scott not being a delusional psycho, the circumstances might have been completely different.
Quote:
Doubtful sucha place exists |
Originally Posted by Rabid_M
GG is right, for once.
I would suggest handing him over to the world of peaceful CoT. Put him on a world that's totally at peace, and let him see what it's really like. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Multiple ways to do this...
1) Treat Cole like Rikti and just kill him. He was a dimension force trying to invade Primal, just like the Rikti. Members of the Vanguard like GG ( Truthfully I don't know if GG is a member of Vanguard, but I bet she is), kill Rikti. That was never a "knock them out and arrest them" type of situation. It is a war after all, and Vanguard are a war group, not a superhero group.
2) Hand Cole over to his dimensions remaining authorities. Though what gets me, is it's said there are other governments on Praetorian Earth. So why did we never get aide from them? Or searth them out?
3) Say a villain took that time to murder Cole when he was weakened, like some of the other itrial villains were killed by villains.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Vanessa DeVore founded the Resistance, and she would have appointed another military commander if Calvin hadn't been around.
|
Originally Posted by Issen
Actually, Calvin Scott's delusion has EVERYTHING to do with it. And why the "Or not?" It's clear in retrospect that he was in fact delusional and that, like Posi said, there were subtle hints of that delusion all over the place. And one of Calvin's primary driving reasons for founding and leading the Resistance was in fact that specific delusion (that he was married to Aurora Borealis).
So really, had Calvin Scott not being a delusional psycho, the circumstances might have been completely different. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!