REVAMP EM set


Aett_Thorn

 

Posted

I have played EM on a tank since before PvP was even in the game.

ET was stupidly overpowered. Changing it had nothing to do with PvP.

ET is still overpowered now, with DPA and DPE far better than anything else. Just not as much as it was before. EM has the highest ST DPS of any tanker set, only getting more and more ahead as you add recharge, and drop any attacks that's aren't ET from your attack chain.

(The -health is a trivial penalty given the overkill survivability possessed by most tankers).

Thus, any changes to to EM are likely to involve further nerfs to ET, whatever happens to the rest of the set.

The only way I can see to avoid that is to do nothing which could add to ST DPS, and AoE must be left close to the bottom of the pile.

You could add utility to Stun by turning it into a 70' ranged attack, and adding a -Fly component. You could add splash 8' radius splash damage to Total Focus, as long as the ST damage remained unchanged.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
EM has the highest ST DPS of any tanker set, only getting more and more ahead as you add recharge, and drop any attacks that's aren't ET from your attack chain.
I find that exceptionally hard to believe given the latest crop of powersets we have been given. Has this been verified to hold true given the existence of Titan Weapons and Street Justice?

Edit: I certainly don't recall seeing any EM/* Brutes clocking top-flight scores in the Rikti Pylon time threads, unless they threw Lore pets at it or something.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Knight View Post
I don't want to see Stun's animation given to anything, especially not ET. I like ET's animation.
Agreed. Not only is ET one of my favourite melee attacks, but the two-handed junk punch is a great animation, if a little slow. Which makes it a lot like Executioner's Shot in that regard.


They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!

@Starflier

 

Posted

While I don't disagree that EM needs help, and hopefully will get looked at soon™...

I'm surprised no one mentioned A: the Necropost by Titan_Destroyer, and B: that he also bumped his own thread to bring it back to the top of the page. Both forum no-no's.


Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.

 

Posted

We're just all necro'd out.


They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!

@Starflier

 

Posted

I've seen plenty of Energy Melee Toons.

I used it myself once. I thought it was pretty unique and felt like it had good, solid hits on my enemies.


 

Posted

Energy Melee needs to stay bad, in fact could use a nerf or two. That way when they release Dual Pistols Melee and Whip Melee, they can make them crappy, but point to EM and say "At least its not as bad as EM".

: Tongue in Cheek:



Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I find that exceptionally hard to believe given the latest crop of powersets we have been given. Has this been verified to hold true given the existence of Titan Weapons and Street Justice?
No, haven't tested, but as Titan Weapons is an AoE set, it's hardly comparable, and I know EM is way ahead of Staff, which has poor ST damage. I don't know about Street Justice - how does it compare to Fire?

Edit: Looking at the numbers, EM can still beat SJ, but you have to get recharge up pretty high. But the numbers don't tell you everything, I don't know how SJ is in practice, never tried it.


Quote:
Edit: I certainly don't recall seeing any EM/* Brutes clocking top-flight scores in the Rikti Pylon time threads, unless they threw Lore pets at it or something.
I specified the Tanker version. I wouldn't touch EM on a Brute, the long activation times will hurt fury generation. (as will the weak AoE, indirectly). Brutes will notice the effect of the self damage too.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
No, haven't tested, but as Titan Weapons is an AoE set, it's hardly comparable
You are aware that, in addition to excellent AoE, Titan Weapon can achieve fairly amazing single-target damage? Damage so high that I suspect it compares favorably with EM, if it does not beat it? Titan Weapons does show up with excellent Pylon times.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

EM could use some help for sure! I don't know if it really needs the help people are clamoring for though.

It's always been more of a ST focused set, and saddly, they turned it into a (for most, not all) boring ST focused set.

WH could likely use a bit of OOooomph added to it. But, I know, when I chose EM, it was never because I thought "YEAH! Going to clear rooms with all this AOE!"

EM used to be an okay fun set. Barrage loved it's animation, even if it's a bit long for most people. Total Focus, it was a long animation, but it was only ONE long animation in the set.

ET made it two, and that just made it become boring. :/

My suggestions to improve EM...

Step 1) Improve Barrage's Damage. Give it a little more power in that 1 - 2 punch.

Step 2) Trim ET's animation time down to 1.67 seconds from 2.67.

Step 3) Make Stun a serious attack (ala Cobra Strike) or while possibly still skipped by many, a serious Mez. Mag 4 Stun, that can lock down a boss.

Step 3) Alternate Animations!

Barrage would need another 1 -2 combo style punch, as any other melee equivalent in terms of animation length is a kick (or knee), and while I would love to see the energy melee pom poms on the feet if the animation used a kick animation instead, I just don't see that happening. :/

Energy Punch can get Initial Strike animations, either by cutting .03 seconds off EP's animation or adding .03 seconds to IS's animation on the port (no, don't mess with StJ's animations itself )

Bone Smasher could use Super Strength's alternate animation for Haymaker.

ET with a new animation time of 1.67 seconds could have Cobra Strike's alternate animations, CAK's alternate animation, and if you wanted, Jacob's Ladder could be turned into an Energy Damage type of attack animation.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Edit: Looking at the numbers, EM can still beat SJ, but you have to get recharge up pretty high. But the numbers don't tell you everything, I don't know how SJ is in practice, never tried it.




I specified the Tanker version. I wouldn't touch EM on a Brute, the long activation times will hurt fury generation. (as will the weak AoE, indirectly). Brutes will notice the effect of the self damage too.
You'll have to show your work on this one, because I flat out don't believe you that EM will beat DM, SM, or TW for single target DPS on a high recharge IO build (and this has been shown in other threads, where people did show the chains used, level or recharge, and their final results). The only time it's best for single target DPS is on SO and basic (non-set) IO builds with low global recharge, and that's only because it has ET - TF is the worst DPA of the "heavy hitting" scale 3.56 attacks by virtue of having the longest animation of any single target attack in a melee set.

Also, given that PvP damage was set to use animation time for its damage you wouldn't even have to have different animations to nerf ET for PvP, you could simply put the animation to 1 second and use the PvP formula to get the final damage and have it do the scale 4.56 in PvE.

Yes, that makes it an outlier power... but the changes to Assassin's Strike made every Stalker have a power that frequently exceeds the DPA of a 1-second ET, and it's in a set that has similar issues that people complained about the Stalker AT as a whole prior to the changes: not enough single target damage to make up for the weak AoE. Stalkers didn't get more AoE, they got better single target damage. I say just treat EM the same way.


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it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
You'll have to show your work on this one, because I flat out don't believe you that EM will beat DM, SM, or TW for single target DPS on a high recharge IO build (and this has been shown in other threads, where people did show the chains used, level or recharge, and their final results). The only time it's best for single target DPS is on SO and basic (non-set) IO builds with low global recharge, and that's only because it has ET - TF is the worst DPA of the "heavy hitting" scale 3.56 attacks by virtue of having the longest animation of any single target attack in a melee set.
That's what I remembered also, but I didn't recall specifics for easy reference.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

I just wish the T2 or T3 was a small cone attack so that Whirling Hands wasn't the only AoE in the set =(


-STEELE =)


Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
You'll have to show your work on this one, because I flat out don't believe you that EM will beat DM, SM, or TW for single target DPS on a high recharge IO build (and this has been shown in other threads, where people did show the chains used, level or recharge, and their final results). The only time it's best for single target DPS is on SO and basic (non-set) IO builds with low global recharge, and that's only because it has ET - TF is the worst DPA of the "heavy hitting" scale 3.56 attacks by virtue of having the longest animation of any single target attack in a melee set.

Also, given that PvP damage was set to use animation time for its damage you wouldn't even have to have different animations to nerf ET for PvP, you could simply put the animation to 1 second and use the PvP formula to get the final damage and have it do the scale 4.56 in PvE.

Yes, that makes it an outlier power... but the changes to Assassin's Strike made every Stalker have a power that frequently exceeds the DPA of a 1-second ET, and it's in a set that has similar issues that people complained about the Stalker AT as a whole prior to the changes: not enough single target damage to make up for the weak AoE. Stalkers didn't get more AoE, they got better single target damage. I say just treat EM the same way.
Before the Assassin Strike changes, for Stalkers, EM was one of the top DPS sets. It basically equaled Dark Melee in ST DPS.

Before the changes (not counting procs) DM was getting 133 DPS, EM was getting 130-135 DPS (it depends on if you wanted to put in a bit more RCH into the build for that extra few points...allowing you to remove an attack from what I thought was the easier chain to build for).

I can't say how Tanker or Brute EM would compare to DM, TW or SM, but I wouldn't think the AS change would change their rankings that much, and DM for Stalkers isn't exactly an AOE powerhouse.

All that said, I wouldn't add AOE to EM. It's not an AOE set. I'm not saying don't give WH a slight boost if needed, but it's always been a more ST focused set, that you can stack stuns up with. I'd say keep playing up to that strength.

Just give it some new alternate animations and a bit of tweaking to make it exciting again.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
No, haven't tested, but as Titan Weapons is an AoE set, it's hardly comparable, and I know EM is way ahead of Staff, which has poor ST damage. I don't know about Street Justice - how does it compare to Fire?

Edit: Looking at the numbers, EM can still beat SJ, but you have to get recharge up pretty high. But the numbers don't tell you everything, I don't know how SJ is in practice, never tried it.




I specified the Tanker version. I wouldn't touch EM on a Brute, the long activation times will hurt fury generation. (as will the weak AoE, indirectly). Brutes will notice the effect of the self damage too.
TW does better ST damage than SS with Stacked Rage...you'll have to explain how on earth it is you're figuring EM is better at ST DPS...as I simply don't see it. Math is math, and yours isn't adding up.

Furthermore...I would hotly debate the other sets you are contesting as well...ET is not that impressive compared to things like KOB from SS, or RA or FT from TW, or even MG from DM.

In addition, I would seriously consider you out of your mind if you said the best EM chain on a tank didn't involve Gloom in some fashion...as the rest of EM to get your ST DPS up close to the other sets would not even be anywhere near on par.


Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by planet_J View Post
TW does better ST damage than SS with Stacked Rage...you'll have to explain how on earth it is you're figuring EM is better at ST DPS...as I simply don't see it. Math is math, and yours isn't adding up.

Furthermore...I would hotly debate the other sets you are contesting as well...ET is not that impressive compared to things like KOB from SS, or RA or FT from TW, or even MG from DM.

In addition, I would seriously consider you out of your mind if you said the best EM chain on a tank didn't involve Gloom in some fashion...as the rest of EM to get your ST DPS up close to the other sets would not even be anywhere near on par.
Isn't it with Gloom, that SS becomes an awesome ST set anyways?


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Isn't it with Gloom, that SS becomes an awesome ST set anyways?
Yup, and for the same reason that ET is so powerful - Gloom's DPA is off-scale.

The highest theoretical tanker ST attack chain, given capped recharge and +DMG, is simply this:

(Barrage) -> ET -> Gloom -> ET -> Gloom etc

I don't use it for a very simple reason: Frosty Robot is pure hero and thus can't have Gloom.

Some numbers: Level 50 DPA for ET is 76, DPE 20(!); DPA for Gloom 71, DPE 7.34; DPA for KOB is 71, DPE 8.6.

TW Follow Through does better with a DPA of 108, and DPE 10.2, but you can't build an attack chain with just Follow Through and Gloom because of the Momentum mechanic.

Are TW and SS better than EM? IMO yes, but they are not a valid baseline. I would say EM, SS and TW are all broken, and would all get nerfed if the devs decided to look at them closely.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
In addition, I would seriously consider you out of your mind if you said the best EM chain on a tank didn't involve Gloom in some fashion.
And I have considered this a problem for quite a while.

Especially on Brutes. It is not balanced that a single PPP power can take a set from near the bottom of ST DPS to near the top.

When the best ST damage attack chain for a set includes only one attack from that set, there is something wrong. (Super Strength Gloom->KO Blow->Burn is the best chain you can run for ST damage, assuming your secondary is Fire)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
And I have considered this a problem for quite a while.

Especially on Brutes. It is not balanced that a single PPP power can take a set from near the bottom of ST DPS to near the top.
Agreed.

Quote:
When the best ST damage attack chain for a set includes only one attack from that set, there is something wrong. (Super Strength Gloom->KO Blow->Burn is the best chain you can run for ST damage, assuming your secondary is Fire)
Technically, EM ET->Gloom->Burn is marginally better, but SS has a much easier time getting to the DMG cap.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Yup, and for the same reason that ET is so powerful - Gloom's DPA is off-scale.

The highest theoretical tanker ST attack chain, given capped recharge and +DMG, is simply this:

(Barrage) -> ET -> Gloom -> ET -> Gloom etc

I don't use it for a very simple reason: Frosty Robot is pure hero and thus can't have Gloom.

Some numbers: Level 50 DPA for ET is 76, DPE 20(!); DPA for Gloom 71, DPE 7.34; DPA for KOB is 71, DPE 8.6.

TW Follow Through does better with a DPA of 108, and DPE 10.2, but you can't build an attack chain with just Follow Through and Gloom because of the Momentum mechanic.

Are TW and SS better than EM? IMO yes, but they are not a valid baseline. I would say EM, SS and TW are all broken, and would all get nerfed if the devs decided to look at them closely.
See, now this is why I said to show your work. Because you're wrong.

Some more numbers:
Damage for ET is scale 4.56, arcanatime animation is 2.904. That gives you a scale of 1.57024793... which I'm rounding to 1.57/sec.
Tanker damage mod at 50 is 44.488, which comes to 69.85719008...

So your numbers are off, even if you included Bruising (20% resistance debuff puts it at 83.8) which would work better for a set with a higher DPA Bruising attack.

The damage for Seismic Smash is 3.56 scale, arcanatime animation of 1.716; Stone Fist does scale 1 damage with arcanatime animation of 1.056. This gives you a total damage equivalent to Energy Transfer in 2.772 seconds. The last time I checked, 2.772 was lower than 2.904, so you're doing the same damage in less time. That's called higher damage per second, for those of you having trouble following along. And if you're a Tanker, you're not only doing more DPS than Energy Transfer even if it was your whole chain, you're also not wasting time with a low DPA attack like Barrage (although Stone Fist is low for Stone Melee) to get Bruising.

If you have to see the numbers, (scale 4.56) * (44.488 damage per scale) / (2.772 seconds) = 73.18372294372294.... Bruising makes this around 87.8, which is higher than ET's post-Bruising DPS even when we didn't include Barrage in the chain.

Seismic Smash recharges in the same time as Energy Transfer but due to the shorter animation will have a slightly shorter cycle time. Gloom and Burn are available to Stone Melee as well, so the chain of SF->SS->Gloom (repeat) will be higher than ET->Gloom (repeat) even assuming you can magically cause the chain to restart at the end of Gloom's animation despite the recharge cap not allowing it to recharge that quickly.

And Stone Fist isn't even the second best DPA in Stone Melee, that falls to Heavy Mallet; if you didn't want to get the Bruising bonus (and I wasn't deliberately using two powers that add to the same damage as ET) you could build a better chain in Stone Melee.

As for Stalker comparisons... Stalker DM doesn't have Soul Drain, it has Build Up. So it doesn't get a higher +damage for a longer period of time with more targets, which is how DM catches up and passes EM for every other AT that has both; EM also isn't a top performer when the team size increases because the best attack that has a full critical is Bone Smasher so an increased critical rate barely helps it.


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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
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It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

I haven't used Arcanatime in my calculations, only canonical activation times. I also haven't looked at Stone Melee, which obviously looses out by having horrible DPE.

And I have no interest whatsoever in any version of EM other than the tanker version, for this simple reason: That's what I've got. As far as I'm concerned, there is no reason for anyone who hasn't already got an EM character to make one, it has been replaced by Kinetic Melee, which is conceptually identical. It only still exists in the game because it's not possible to grant people powerset respecs.

Thus, there really isn't much point in the devs spending much time on EM. All they have to do is make sure its not to bad for people who are currently playing it.

With Kinetic Melee, Electic Melee, and Radiation Melee in the pipline, there are more than enough energy based melee sets.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
As far as I'm concerned, there is no reason for anyone who hasn't already got an EM character to make one, it has been replaced by Kinetic Melee, which is conceptually identical. It only still exists in the game because it's not possible to grant people powerset respecs.
That opinion is one that compels people to ask for improvements to a powerset. That's a bad place for a powerset to be, IMO.

It's possible that the right choice is for the improvement to be something other than raw DPS. Given the performance available to some of its peers, and given that EM used to be exceptional at raw DPS, asking for a DPS increase seems pretty logical, to me at least. It's also probably the least likely thing to run afoul of additional major changes to the "feel" of the powerset. However, I'm kind of split on the importance of that. For a lot of players, myself included, EM's feel got a major reworking already. I have limited sympathy for folks who love the new ET animation, because I loved the old one (obviously for performance reasons, but I also preferred it aesthetically.) However, reworking what EM does too much probably risks cheesing of both camps.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
That opinion is one that compels people to ask for improvements to a powerset. That's a bad place for a powerset to be, IMO.
Why do you feel it matters, with all those alteratives, including a direct remake?

EM is deliberately obsolete. Time spent "fixing" it is development time wasted, and only likely to upset those people who have been playing it since long before KM was added.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Why do you feel it matters, with all those alteratives, including a direct remake?

EM is deliberately obsolete. Time spent "fixing" it is development time wasted, and only likely to upset those people who have been playing it since long before KM was added.
Past and present dev activities show that they do not accept that powersets every become "intentionally obsolete". They have, at this point, a long history of revisiting sets that fall too far below some performance levels they feel are important. So I feel it matters in part because the devs have shown that it matters to them.

More personally, I think it is bad form in any game to let anything that remains a valid choice for new characters to be obsolete. There is no big red label on EM that says "DEPRECATED" letting players know they shouldn't choose it. And they should not be saddled with an inferior experience because they chose it without such a warning. This applies not just to new players (who should be a meaningful focus in a post-Freedom world), but to existing players who may not live and breathe forum discussions on what powersets rank where.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA