Medicine pool
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-05-28 19:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Hey Mr genuis, if you actually read, you can see the idea(on the first post) was to let heal self be taken with no pre reqs. You some how seems to interpret that as meaning heal order and stim are both going to get the axe in other for that to happen.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You do realize there are more ATs than scrappers? Power pools are not designed for one AT. What a scrapper doesn't find "useful" (and I find your "logic" highly suspect, thus the ease in shooting holes in your arguments) other ATs may.
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I do note you don't quote the OTHER examples on why it's useful. See multiple posts above. "lel" right back at you. |
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I hate playing masterminds in the 18-24 levels. Should I get a "Skip levels" power? Now, care to come up with an actual argument? |
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Don't assume. |
Originally Posted by Dz131
Hey Mr genuis, if you actually read, you can see the idea(on the first post) was to let heal self be takeable with no pre reqs. You some how seems to interpret that as meaning heal other and stim are both going to get the axe in other for that to happen.
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You ALSO made mention of changing stimulant to a mez. Remember this?
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Originally Posted by Dz131
Either that or get rid of stim and change it to a target mag 2 hold.
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I also NEVER made any claim about Heal Other "getting the axe." Don't try to put words into my mouth, child. YOU are the one saying they're undesirable. You have been shown wrong (edit: as anything but your *own* personal preference.)
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| What posts? The ones where you say how useful a 13 end interruptable skill is when surrounded by mobs? |
Are you sure you want to continue with that line of argument?
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| I guess you must at the end of your argument? Lets take that further, I hate work, therefore I should just get a free money program in RL. What does that have to do with the medicine pool? Oh wait nothing, I guess the point is: Nice straw man bro. |
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Yes because I own the game and everything I say goes. For the 3rd, 4th or 5th time, that just a example. The point is, if they don't want to make the healself skill choosable, then make the first two prereqs, useable for all play styles. Are you saying all scrappers that want heal self also want to heal and stim other people ?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Don't assume.
You ALSO made mention of changing stimulant to a mez. Remember this? |
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| I also NEVER made any claim about Heal Other "getting the axe." Don't try to put words into my mouth, child. YOU are the one saying they're undesirable. You have been shown wrong. |
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| Gee, so you can argue about "after the fight," which you JUST DID, but I can't? You're doing nothing but showing just how weak any argument but "I want" is. |
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| Pot, kettle. Once more. |
That's what they call an exaggeration, to show how ridiculous your claim is.
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I have Aid Other and Aid Self on my SS/Shield Brute and I find both useful.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
Since they're in the front lines and those 2 powers are interrupt-able long cast skills? Also they won't be doing damage, which is their AT role.
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Having soft capped defenses, the interrupt on both is negligible.
Having aid other doesn't mean I'm a "healz0rz" or anything like that. There were times where I used Aid Other on other melee toons fighting beside me if they needed the boost.
I think the whole idea behind the pre-req's is learning to walk before learning to run.
If there weren't alternate options, I'd agree with you that the pool could use some tweaking.
However, we have:
Green Inspirations
Self Heal Temporary Power (10 charges I think?)
Destiny->Rebirth Incarnate Power
And for what it's worth, Aid Other and Aid Self on my Brute each only have the base slot with a level 50 Healing IO in them. And that's more than enough in my opinion.
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Strawman. |
Originally Posted by Dz131
Yes because I own the game and everything I say goes.
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| For the 3rd, 4th or 5th time, that just a example. The point is, if they don't want to make the healself skill choosable, then make the first two prereqs, useable for all play styles. |
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| Are you saying all scrappers that want heal self also want to heal and stim other people ? |
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Uh no, I'm saying they're undesirable to alot of people espcially scrappers and other damage dealers. |
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| Notice the bit where I keep mentioning play style? And I'm right. They only way you can even dispute that is if everyone in the game find them desirable. |
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| I definitely can argue that people would like to heal themselves up after a fight more than they like to heal other people. |
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| That's what they call an exaggeration, to show how ridiculous your claim is. |
Again, stick with just "I want" instead of trying to come up with all this other nonsense. You're going more and more into the realm of your assumptions and things you just can't prove, like what "everyone" wants or likes.
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I'm not say they're totally useless to everyone. I'm saying they are useless to alot of people, and they're force to take it for heal self
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Originally Posted by SolarSentai
I have Aid Other and Aid Self on my SS/Shield Brute and I find both useful.
Having soft capped defenses, the interrupt on both is negligible. Having aid other doesn't mean I'm a "healz0rz" or anything like that. There were times where I used Aid Other on other melee toons fighting beside me if they needed the boost. I think the whole idea behind the pre-req's is learning to walk before learning to run. If there weren't alternate options, I'd agree with you that the pool could use some tweaking. However, we have: Green Inspirations Self Heal Temporary Power (10 charges I think?) Destiny->Rebirth Incarnate Power And for what it's worth, Aid Other and Aid Self on my Brute each only have the base slot with a level 50 Healing IO in them. And that's more than enough in my opinion. |
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Right, and that's fine, but my point is that we have choices we can make that don't require the developers to spend time adjusting an existing pool that has viable options.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
I'm not say they're totally useless to everyone. I'm saying they are useless to alot of people, and they're force to take it for heal self
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If there was no alternative, I'd agree and say that time should be spent looking at the pool.
I don't think the Medicine Pool ranks on the Dev's Top 10, 50, or even 100 list of things that need to be looked at.
Honestly, the way I view the Med pool these days is a bonus due to us being given the Fitness Pool as inherent. Back in the day, 3 power choices would be "wasted" getting Swift/Hurdle, Health and Stamina. Now we're spoiled and get them for free.
I guess what I'm saying is, the pool isn't a priority in the grand scheme of things considering that there are other options.
If you really believe that the Pool needs work, start a thread in the Suggestions board and layout A) Why it needs to be changed and B) How it should be changed.
I think you will get more directed feedback if you present your case in that manner. (And remember, even if you think something's a good idea, it doesn't mean that others will)
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Can't say it'd really be worth the time. Bill would still be on his case for no good reason.
It's too late to 'tweak' the pool though, switching power orders is very rarely done for good reason. At this point they'd just add a 5th power of some kind.
Which I don't see as a problem. As was pointed out, we have alternate methods of healing, so how 'broken' would it be at this point in the life of the game if people could choose a self heal without wasting a power pick?
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It's not a matter as broken, as whether or not the time should be invested in "tweaking" it. Between coding, UI design and whatnot it begs the question if the time and effort is better placed elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Can't say it'd really be worth the time. Bill would still be on his case for no good reason.
It's too late to 'tweak' the pool though, switching power orders is very rarely done for good reason. At this point they'd just add a 5th power of some kind. Which I don't see as a problem. As was pointed out, we have alternate methods of healing, so how 'broken' would it be at this point in the life of the game if people could choose a self heal without wasting a power pick? |
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I'm "on his case" for (a) wanting to remove a power (changing Stimulant to a mez, which yes, he does seem to have abandoned) and (b) making arguments he has no place to make. And for (c) putting words into my mouth, which I will not stand for. |
Originally Posted by Agent White
Can't say it'd really be worth the time. Bill would still be on his case for no good reason.
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I'm perfectly fine with him saying "I want it." Great. That's an opinion. I don't. That's mine. It's arguing that they're "useless" that I have issue with, as the powers certainly aren't. And arguing that "everyone" or even "most" people agree with him - well, I don't recall getting a poll, I don't recall hearing of anyone in any global channels getting a poll, and there's obviously fairly significant disagreement about their uselessness in this thread.
The arguments with us back and forth, if you'll re-read, are primarily (aside from the "remove stimulant" bit) over his perception that a scrapper (or other melee) has zero use for Aid Other or Stimulant.
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That could be asked of any old system though. Why revamp a zone, why revisit gravity, etc. The devs already have their priorities in order, trying to second guess that and not suggesting things based on it it just silly. |
Originally Posted by SolarSentai
It's not a matter as broken, as whether or not the time should be invested in "tweaking" it. Between coding, UI design and whatnot it begs the question if the time and effort is better placed elsewhere.
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Preferably I'd like to see a 2nd round of adding to the power pools, like they did with the travel powers. Not just medicine but stealth, presence, leadership, etc.
Though we know they're working on a new power pool with 'Sorcery'.
And Bill, justify it how you like. It's pointless, you're just nitpicking over one thing he mentioned. Just drop it already, we don't care who is bigger between you two.
[QUOTE=Memphis_Bill;4252092]
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Strawman. Why should they be "for all play styles?" Second time. Stop trying to put words into my mouth. I also just gave an example above on where, even if you DIDN'T, it can be beneficial. |
Once again, I don't really care what happens to heal other and stim, the thread is about making heal self a no prereq power. Please remember this when power leveling your post count.
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| No, they're undesirable to YOU. Not "Scrappers," not "Damage dealers." YOU. Don't try to claim a majority you don't have. And by the way, yes, I do have scrappers and brutes with them. And yes, I find them useful. |
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| There is nothing in the game that "everyone" finds desirable. Not power sets, not power pools, not ATs, not sides, not missions, not PVP, nothing. Even leveling (note the option to disable XP) is seen as undesirable at times by some. |
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| No, you can't. You don't have that information at all. You'll note we do have support sets? You do realize there are people that enjoy playing those (and healing other people) more than being "selfish" about it? (Note for clarity: the "selfish" is solely referring to benefiting only yourself, not a personal judgement on the poster.) |
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| Besides, even if you don't "like" healing others, or using Stimulant on them, even if you want to be "selfish" about it, the powers *still benefit you* - just indirectly, by keeping support (or even your fellow damage dealers) rolling. |
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| You're pretty much just showing how weak and ridiculous your own arguments are. |
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| Again, stick with just "I want" instead of trying to come up with all this other nonsense. You're going more and more into the realm of your assumptions and things you just can't prove, like what "everyone" wants or likes. |
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Uh no, I said they're useless to a lot of scrappers. Who's putting words in whose mouth? Now.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The arguments with us back and forth, if you'll re-read, are primarily (aside from the "remove stimulant" bit) over his perception that a scrapper (or other melee) has zero use for Aid Other or Stimulant.
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It will if they're sleeping! |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... Heal Other != Stimulant. Healing someone will not help them if they're mezzed and unable to do anything - especially a small, interruptable heal like aid other.
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Motivation is the art of getting people to do what you want them to do because they want to do it.
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Well I don't think its right just to say since we have alternate methods of healing therefore we should leave it as it is, you can also argue that for travel powers and defence too. This would only showhorn people into cookie cutter builds with the same skills, such as using Rebirth or only choosing the defence pools + speed.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Can't say it'd really be worth the time. Bill would still be on his case for no good reason.
It's too late to 'tweak' the pool though, switching power orders is very rarely done for good reason. At this point they'd just add a 5th power of some kind. Which I don't see as a problem. As was pointed out, we have alternate methods of healing, so how 'broken' would it be at this point in the life of the game if people could choose a self heal without wasting a power pick? |
Adding a 5th power would be cool too, but that seems to be more work than just opening Aidself as a first pick.
Your reading comprehension needs work, I'm afraid.
Nice personal attacks. I love the one about post count. Tell ya what, before you post *anything* else, search on my name and "post count." Note how often I suggest having an option for having the post count *removed.*
You can apologize at any time.
And I find it amusing you're trying to twist your *own* arguments while calling me desperate to "win" a thread. Note, I'm not trying to "win" anything. I'm trying to get you to see that those powers are not "useless" or "Wasted" which is one of the primary arguments you're using as a basis for your request. As in your *very first* post:
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Emphasis mine. |
Originally Posted by Dz131
...that making you basically waste a power pick in the medicine pool to get the power you actually want just make people less likely to take it.
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| Staying alive seems to be desirable to everyone. |
People volunteer to be Fallout and Vengeance bait. Can only do so via dying.
So, not "everyone." Yes, those are edge cases, somewhat.
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| What does changing heal self to be a 1st pick have anything to do with support? |
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Originally Posted by Dz131
If I don't want to use them and only using them to get heal self, they sit there and do nothing except be a wasted skill.
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| Just like you right? What do you have apart from some anecdotal evidence about you own characters? |
I'll also argue that:
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Originally Posted by Dz131
the only pool that has purely useless prereqs (in terms of min maxing) is Medicine
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Originally Posted by Dz131
Uh no, I said they're useless to a lot of scrappers.
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The whole medicine pool is rather underwhelming....I agree that it would be nice to not have to take Aid other or stimulant, but the percentage of characters that actually utilize Aid self, I would assume would be mostly Melee characters, that are defense based, that don't have a self heal.
I've taken aid self a few times...the only time it really benefited me was on my /stone brute when I used to tank LRSF(way back in the day before AE) Other times for me it's more useful to try to continue doing damage and rely on teammates to heal. In a team setting things just move so fast that Aid self is harder to get off...and slows you down so much.
It is definitely to me, more valuable if you're soloing...in which case...aid self and stimulant...not too helpful.
I don't know what beta supposedly tested this out(no prereqs for Aid self) but I can not imagine it breaking any power set or making anything Overpowered. I mean what do you gain....You gain your 25th power choice....and 1 slot for that power? Min Maxing in most cases would avoid the use of Aid Self at almost all cost. Sure that power choice would probably allow for a better set mule at minimum, and hopefully a semi useful power...but no sorry...with all the powers flying around in this game, I don't see it breaking anything or even benefiting most build much.
...Now if we could get a self Rez as a power in medicine....that I might take...I just love to get up and keeping rolling.
Motivation is the art of getting people to do what you want them to do because they want to do it.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Your reading comprehension needs work, I'm afraid.
Nice personal attacks. I love the one about post count. Tell ya what, before you post *anything* else, search on my name and "post count." Note how often I suggest having an option for having the post count *removed.* You can apologize at any time. |
Wow, Mr passive aggressive, you cry about people putting words in your mouth, while you put words in other people's mouths. You should work as a politician, son.
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| And I find it amusing you're trying to twist your *own* arguments while calling me desperate to "win" a thread. Note, I'm not trying to "win" anything. I'm trying to get you to see that those powers are not "useless" or "Wasted" which is one of the primary arguments you're using as a basis for your request. As in your *very first* post: |
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| Emphasis mine. |
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People try for debt badges. Can only get those by dying. People volunteer to be Fallout and Vengeance bait. Can only do so via dying. |
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| You're changing your own argument. The only thing I've said about changing Aid Self to an available pick is that I disagree. Again, the rest of the arguments have been over your perception of general uselessness to melee of the other powers. |
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| Do you *never* team? Ever? You have NEVER had a situation where someone has used an awaken and staggered around, not being available for the next fight? Do you not think having Stimulant handy would help both the other person (getting them ready to go) and you (by either not depriving you of support/control/DPS or slowing down the team?) |
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| I'm not the one saying they're useless. I've posted my own uses, hypothetical uses *and* even places they'd be useful to you - I have NOT gone through and said "Most," "Many scrappers," etc. like you have. And I'm getting backed up on their usefulness by other posters. You're the one making assumptions about how others feel. And prioritizing your biases about one AT or playstyle over another - something the power pools are generally not designed around. |
No, you're say they should be useful for everyone. I find heal other and stim totally useless outside of a MM character and I can easily pull up screen shots in game where people agree. So what? Hell, color coding your insps and binding them to your mouse CAN be useful, doesn't mean people will do it. Alot of players want just heal self, and are forced to waste a power on heal other and stim that they want nothing to do with, because they don't like to play support.
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| is *absolutely* not a reason to change a pool. |
DZ:
Tell ya what, let's tackle this a different way, since we don't agree on putting Aid Self as a first available pick and everything else is really a distraction.
You mention scrappers repeatedly, so I'm making the assumption you're arguing from a mostly scrapper standpoint - that of one wanting a self heal. Unless I'm mistaken, there are only two Scrapper sets missing a self heal - Shield defense and Super Reflexes. (I *am* including click-based Max Health in there, as they do also replace HP.)
Energy and Electric have theirs come late, at least on brutes. They're earlier on Scrappers. That, the devs can adjust - they've done so before.
So, you're looking at two sets. So how about this:
Instead of messing with a nice, generic medicine pool, on SR fold Quickness into (say) Dodge and add a self heal.
For SD, do something like fold Phalanx fighting into Grant cover, move GC up and put in a self heal.
The two scrapper sets missing a self heal then have one, and there's zero reason to mess with Medicine.
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Not really, I play all characters. Blasters are why worse off than scrappers in that front, Doms as well, since neither of them have defence skills.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
DZ:
Tell ya what, let's tackle this a different way, since we don't agree on putting Aid Self as a first available pick and everything else is really a distraction. You mention scrappers repeatedly, so I'm making the assumption you're arguing from a mostly scrapper standpoint - that of one wanting a self heal. Unless I'm mistaken, there are only two Scrapper sets missing a self heal - Shield defense and Super Reflexes. (I *am* including click-based Max Health in there, as they do also replace HP.) Energy and Electric have theirs come late, at least on brutes. They're earlier on Scrappers. That, the devs can adjust - they've done so before. So, you're looking at two sets. So how about this: Instead of messing with a nice, generic medicine pool, on SR fold Quickness into (say) Dodge and add a self heal. For SD, do something like fold Phalanx fighting into Grant cover, move GC up and put in a self heal. The two scrapper sets missing a self heal then have one, and there's zero reason to mess with Medicine. |
Mostly agree with Bill.
The original statement, to make Aid Self available without a prerequisite, is really unsupported by any of the following arguments except for "I want," or "I prefer," or "I wish I didn't have to..."
OK, you don't want a prerequisite. I can see why you'd want that. I'd like it to stay as it is. I kid of like the idea of making people at least somewhat more capable as a team player, even if only in a tiny way. I love the pleasant surprise of a scrapper or tank healing or un-mezzing me or another teammate. Yes, it might still happen if Aid Self was available immediately, but it bet it would happen less than it does now.
Granted, I find the whole poor pretty uninspired, and have never felt it was worth even 1 power slot for Aid Self, even if it was available without prerequisite, on a melee alt. I have taken it on a few of my more support oriented characters, like Aid Self or Revive on a Shielder type (FF or Sonic). I've taken Stim a few times, too. Often, if I also then take Aid Self, if I have no self heal, but that doesn't mean I think the pool should be changed to make it more, or less appealing to me or anyone else.
If a pool needs real help, I'd say fix Presence first. That pool I'd prioritize WAY ahead of any other. If a pool that is at least somewhat popular needs a 'waste' power removed or changed, or a prerequisite on a t3 removed I'd say look at Fighting. Aftet that, maybe look at modifying Medicine, but I'd still prefer the prerequisitess stay in place, just maybe the interrupts get removed.
And yes, if you find taking Aid Other of Stimulant that distasteful, just skip this pool. Your self healing needs can be fixed many other ways, as others have pointed out.
If any power should be made skippable, I'd say I love to be able to skip a T1 in some secondaries. Gale on a /Storm troller comes to mind... But, should they change that so I can play a /Stormy without being forced to 'waste' a pick on Gale? Not really, but if they did for some reason, I'd be happy. Some people might not, though, and their preferences should hold just as much (as little??) weight as mine do.
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I don't know either. 1 power pick means the difference between balanced and broken? Is Cox really such a balanced game like that?
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Originally Posted by Star_Seven
I don't know what beta supposedly tested this out(no prereqs for Aid self) but I can not imagine it breaking any power set or making anything Overpowered. I mean what do you gain....You gain your 25th power choice....and 1 slot for that power? Min Maxing in most cases would avoid the use of Aid Self at almost all cost. Sure that power choice would probably allow for a better set mule at minimum, and hopefully a semi useful power...but no sorry...with all the powers flying around in this game, I don't see it breaking anything or even benefiting most build much. . |
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You brought up post count, sparky.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
Wow, Mr passive aggressive, you cry about people putting words in your mouth, while you put words in other people's mouths. You should work as a politician, son.
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| But they are useless and wasted, for people that ONLY want aid self. |
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| And your arguement is what? Some people find it useful therefore everyone finds it useful? You find it useful therefore I should find it useful? What are you saying here? It is a waste power in my opinion, just like in your opinion, it's not. I'm sure there people that agree on both sides. |
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| What's you're describing are incidents, and doesn't hold true at all the time. |
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| So, not "everyone." Yes, those are edge cases, somewhat. |
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| And I still think it's useless for scrappers. And you think it's useful. So I guess this is not going anywhere. |
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| Not really. Because 1: Hard rez. 2: breakfree. 3. They wait till the fight's over to res and rest at the same time. I NEVER had to use stim on someone just after a insp rez, even when I had it on my old MM characters. Never. |
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| No, you're say they should be useful for everyone. I find heal other and stim totally useless outside of a MM character |
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| because they don't like to play support. |
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| I didn't even bring up min/maxing. I just added it to my list of reasons when someone else brought it up. |
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In this case you're telling people how to play, instead of letting them choose themselves, in my opinion game,especially something like CoX shouldn't do something like that.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
OK, you don't want a prerequisite. I can see why you'd want that. I'd like it to stay as it is. I kid of like the idea of making people at least somewhat more capable as a team player, even if only in a tiny way. I love the pleasant surprise of a scrapper or tank healing or un-mezzing me or another teammate. Yes, it might still happen if Aid Self was available immediately, but it bet it would happen less than it does now. |
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| If a pool needs real help, I'd say fix Presence first. That pool I'd prioritize WAY ahead of any other. If a pool that is at least somewhat popular needs a 'waste' power removed or changed, or a prerequisite on a t3 removed I'd say look at Fighting. Aftet that, maybe look at modifying Medicine, but I'd still prefer the prerequisitess stay in place, just maybe the interrupts get removed. |
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| And yes, if you find taking Aid Other of Stimulant that distasteful, just skip this pool. Your self healing needs can be fixed many other ways, as others have pointed out. |
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| If any power should be made skippable, I'd say I love to be able to skip a T1 in some secondaries. Gale on a /Storm troller comes to mind... But, should they change that so I can play a /Stormy without being forced to 'waste' a pick on Gale? Not really, but if they did for some reason, I'd be happy. Some people might not, though, and their preferences should hold just as much (as little??) weight as mine do. |
TBH I really wish the vet reward to skip prerequisites carried over to the med, leadership and especially the friggin fighting pool...