I mostly like the idea, although I don't particularly like the idea of them being co-op. It just doesn't seem right when there's also the Incursion event (which I like). What'd be the RP explanation for why some can fight (the NPCs) but not others (the PCs)?
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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This thread will go over well.......
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Here's part of the problem, which you touched on early in the post.
PVP wasn't really "tacked on." I see that comment, like they were told ten minutes before launch by NCsoft that "Hey, you guys have to add PVP." You'll find a few things in the dev diaries - like when Dakan was still in - that they had been thinking of PVP early on.
However, the ideas changed. (I'm fairly sure it was Rick dakan, actually, who said "in arenas" and called "a city of heroes vs a city of villains a silly idea.") That itself isnt' the problem, as arenas *can* coexist with warring factions (see Aion.)
The problem is that it *launched* without it. It didn't launch as a PVP-enabled game - and I don't mean "including world PVP" by that, I mean it launched with no PVP. We didn't have anything until Issue 4 - and then it launched with no real REASON to PVP and what was (and, frankly, is) a fairly unfriendly interface. I remember wanting to try it with friends and having matches just fail to create for no discernible reason. Plus, really, many people saw no reason hero would want to fight hero - and the variety of powersets and ATs made balance difficult... even before COV.
Issue 6 changed some of that. New ATs, and a *reason* people could grasp to fight. After all, heroes and villains always fight! Jump right in!
Not going to get into some attitudes about it. But to me, it was fun. And it was accessible.
Now, however... well, as much as I *hate* to admit it, I think you may be right about just calling the whole thing a bad idea. PVP was accessible before - you had to learn what you were doign and how to counter things (Stalker? Pop a yellow. or, hell, if the zone has it, *stand in water.* I surprised a few stalkers that way, knowing where they were by watching the ripples.) Everyone could get an SO build going. And teaming did take care of your weaknesses pretty much.
Now, there's a HIGH cost to really enter, with PVP/purple/etc IO builds. And the learning curve THERE is high enough without the big powers change when you step into a zone.
The solution of "All PVP via the arena" - adding an option, by the way, for the Team Up Teleporter, as I seem to recall seeing asked elsewhere - would probably work out. Though the rewards in the zones *now* would have to be reduced or eliminated. The nukes and shivans are as strong as they are now, after all, because they're supposed to have the risk of PVP involved.
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The only reason why I suggested co-op was so that folks could still get to the zones on both sides with significant Temp Power rewards. As Bill pointed out though, if this goes through, Shivans and nukes would likely have to be nerfed.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
I mostly like the idea, although I don't particularly like the idea of them being co-op. It just doesn't seem right when there's also the Incursion event (which I like). What'd be the RP explanation for why some can fight (the NPCs) but not others (the PCs)?
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As for the NPCs? All that stuff is subject to change. I just felt that having heroes and villains still able to fight things kept with the theme.
Also, I am thinking it might be wise to also put a kabosh on the excessively long "time spent" badges for zones.
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To be honest... it's already more positive than I expected. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This thread will go over well.......
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Remember how to Fix PvP folks.
Spay or neuter PvP players.
As funny as that is, Forbin, believe it or not... this is a 100% serious post. (Not to say don't joke, just making sure my intent is clear.)
Why couldn't we implement new stuff rather than enrage the remaining pvpers? There are plenty of hazard zones to work with. Pvp has been kicked in the groin enough in the past. Leave the tiny pvp population alone.
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Who said I was joking? Have you met some of the obnoxious {pancakes} that shoot their foul little mouths off in PvP zones? Those little creeps should be sterilized in the most painful way possible to keep them from reproducing.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
As funny as that is, Forbin, believe it or not... this is a 100% serious post. (Not to say don't joke, just making sure my intent is clear.)
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To be brutally honest, I've /ignored, noted and /petitioned *far* more people in PVE for acting like that than I ever did in PVP. Yes, even when PVP was fairly active. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Who said I was joking? Have you met some of the obnoxious {pancakes} that shoot their foul little mouths off in PvP zones? Those little creeps should be sterilized in the most painful way possible to keep them from reproducing.
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So unless you want to do the same to all PVE players, let's try to avoid painting groups with such a broad brush, m'kay?
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Are you kidding? Spend any amount of time on these forums and you will realise that his attitude is the only acceptable one to have towards PvPers. If you even doubt for a second that PvPers are some sort of blight on this game you will be harrased until you shut up and leave.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
To be brutally honest, I've /ignored, noted and /petitioned *far* more people in PVE for acting like that than I ever did in PVP. Yes, even when PVP was fairly active.
So unless you want to do the same to all PVE players, let's try to avoid painting groups with such a broad brush, m'kay? |
So again...what you said, more bad experiences with PvErs than PvPers.
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
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Personally, I feel it is far more humane to "tear off the bandaid quickly" by implementing the above suggestion than it is to string the PvP community along with false hope.|
Originally Posted by SmegHead
Why couldn't we implement new stuff rather than enrage the remaining pvpers? There are plenty of hazard zones to work with. Pvp has been kicked in the groin enough in the past. Leave the tiny pvp population alone.
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Get it done, make the zones something useful to all, and move on. Stringing people along is no way to treat them either. I see it as acknowledging the fault and taking decisive action. In the long run, I would hope that the PvP folk would rather be given a final word, than to stew and fester at continued inaction.
I could be wrong.
Also, for the good of this thread, PLEASE ignore Forbin's above post... even if it was in jest it sends a poor message.
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Basically, what you are suggesting is to cannibalize the existing PvP content to provide some more PvE content.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Personally, I feel it is far more humane to "tear off the bandaid quickly" by implementing the above suggestion than it is to string the PvP community along with false hope.
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At this point, PvP has been pretty much untouched for years, and most of the PvP community that's left has made their peace with that - I don't know if a few well-publicized PvP forays by a forum mod constitute "false hope". PvPers who continue to do so are (largely) happy with the limited PvP content as it is, or at least happy enough to stay despite their interest receiving basically no additional support since issue 13. Ending that niche community to provide a few new zones for PvE, which has gotten regular updates and continues to receive them, seems harsh.
And I say this as someone who loathes PvP.
Even though I don't Pvp, I don't agree with destroying an aspect of the game that a subset of the player base enjoys.
Your suggestion is not tearing off a band aid, it is amputation.
I can totally understand your point of view on that. In fact, it was a similar thought that almost kept me from posting the above... almost.
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Just to clarify, Arenas would still allow PvP... It would also be sorta cool if an array of Ouro Crystals were set up in Arenas that could take players into Echoes of the zones as they were...|
Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
Ending that niche community to provide a few new zones for PvE, which has gotten regular updates and continues to receive them, seems harsh.
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But yes, essentially what I am advocating is burn the last remaining tattered bridge and give it to the PvE community. Also, my suggestion does allow the addition of much needed red-side content and a SF for a level range that is a bit scant on SF content.
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Perhaps that would have been a better analogy. But to me, it's all the same. The limb in question has been going into totally uncharted levels of gangrene for years now... I think it is about time.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Your suggestion is not tearing off a band aid, it is amputation.
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That, or dedicate an issue to fixing it. But, I really don't think that is a wise use of Dev resources at this time considering how small of a community that would ultimately serve.
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Fine with me Bill. I have no problem with staking out every single one of the foul mouthed pancakes (be they PvPers or PvEer's) on top of a fire ant colony and covering them in honey. Those obnoxious players are a bane to all aspects of the game.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
To be brutally honest, I've /ignored, noted and /petitioned *far* more people in PVE for acting like that than I ever did in PVP. Yes, even when PVP was fairly active.
So unless you want to do the same to all PVE players, let's try to avoid painting groups with such a broad brush, m'kay? |
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2 months after GR released, rolling up gold side was quieter than villains. How many folks run through first ward these days? It doesn't matter what the devs do, we consume the content, and get bored of it faster than the devs can design it. All the dev time spent repurposing the zones to your suggestion will be no different.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Perhaps that would have been a better analogy. But to me, it's all the same. The limb in question has been going into totally uncharted levels of gangrene for years now... I think it is about time.
That, or dedicate an issue to fixing it. But, I really don't think that is a wise use of Dev resources at this time considering how small of a community that would ultimately serve. |
I like the ideas, and think that they would be interesting, maybe something along those lines, but entirely new zones. I just don't think they should completely destroy an aspect of the game that a segment of the player base enjoys, no matter how small the percentage is.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
No. PvP is still something me and my VG use to this day. A few months ago I joined a VG on virtue known as the United Underworld, a RPVG. One thing that goes down is our events against a Hero group known as the Challengers and one of our big climactic endings to most events usually ends in a PvP match, either in Arena or an open area like Siren's Call or Bloody Bay. PvP is still something we use today.
So you don't like it. Big deal. Leave the broken toy alone and go play with new ones. But don't go throwing away the toy that some of us "kids" still play with. You don't have to fix it; just leave it alone.
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Ahhh, but it would still exist in Arena... and with the same maps accessible via Ouro Crystal echoes (from a recent thought I had a bit upthread).
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Originally Posted by Vexen777
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
No. PvP is still something me and my VG use to this day. A few months ago I joined a VG on virtue known as the United Underworld, a RPVG. One thing that goes down is our events against a Hero group known as the Challengers and one of our big climactic endings to most events usually ends in a PvP match, either in Arena or an open area like Siren's Call or Bloody Bay. PvP is still something we use today. So you don't like it. Big deal. Leave the broken toy alone and go play with new ones. But don't go throwing away the toy that some of us "kids" still play with. You don't have to fix it; just leave it alone. |
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Arena events with 8v8 is hard to organize and echoes or not, there is still no reason to take out those areas out of the game. And PvP echoes would still not be the same.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Ahhh, but it would still exist in Arena... and with the same maps accessible via Ouro Crystal echoes (from a recent thought I had a bit upthread).
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For sure.|
Originally Posted by Vexen777
Arena events with 8v8 is hard to organize
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| And PvP echoes would still not be the same. |
For what it's worth Thirty-Seven, I was genuinely thinking they should cut their losses in a similar way with the zones but leave Arena alone (well, fix as requested still) a few days ago. Trouble is, we just have no idea how small "small" is with regards to actual pvpers. An ehco of zones hadn't occurred to me (and really not sure that's a good fix) so I was sorta thinking maybe they'd be better off re-leveling three of the zones for pvp and turning one into a co-op zone (though the fan of all things redside in me says a pure villian zone sounds like a brilliant idea).
I'd stretch Bloody Bay to 30 or bring Warburg down to 25 and leave Recluse's Victory as is with Siren's Call being switched to PVE just because (unless they've changed something since pre-issue 13) the pvp rewards in that zone seem more lacking. Well, okay, I also really like that map. Sadly, even this would be inconvient for those who still pvp since they'd have to re-IO builds with different level IOs with zone level changes (I think).
Hehehe, that or maybe all zones should be switched to pvp except co-op ones...oh leveling speed would likely plummet for a lot of us if that happened but it'd definitely get pvp fixed. I laugh just thinking about the nerd rage that would cause, it sure wouldn't get me to quit playing this game though.
(For anyone with zero sense of humor I am joking about all zones turning to pvp...but seriously DEVs, why has this not been done as the most awesome April Fool's joke EVER?!?)
Liberty!
Black Dawn/Shattered Dawn
Chaos Legion
First off, I have to say hey to a fellow GR native!
Secondly, I hadn't really considered the idea of messing with levels and such. My focus was simply on re-purposing art assets that would be vacant if not put toward something.
Any and all things in the OP are subject to change so long as something is done with the real estate a similar change would leave us.
Also, I want to be clear that allowing the Echoes wouldn't actually change anything but give PvEers a way to avoid PvP forever and always... which doesn't really change anything. For me, it actually goes against the entire thrust of my original idea. But, if something like that would allow the rest of the suggested changes to occur, I wouldn't let that one thing stop me.
*shrug*
All of this came from me musing about PvP after it was brought up yet again in one thread or another... IIRC it was the Pummit thread and how nothing in it had anything to do with PvP and how some questions were flat out being discouraged even to be answered.
It kinda got me thinking, and the idea that it may be the best to just "pick up the game-board and go home" as it were.
This suggestion... may not be what you came here expecting considering the "label" on the packaging.
CoH launched without PvP. It was introduced several issues later, and was... to my understanding, luke-warmly received. Its population ebbed and flowed until Issue 13 in which it was perceived by Development that something needed to be done to entice non-PvPers into the PvP mini-game. This decision was regarded (to be generous) by the PvP Community as a massive flop. Though it leveled some aspects of the field, it devastated others. Sum total? It was a failure.
Today? PvP is often regarded as a joke by the non-PvP crowd (and by many avid PvPers as well). It has been lowered to an afterthought of a red-headed stepchild-type rank.
The Proposal:
SO... my suggestion is, essentially, for CoH to cut its losses, stop pretending they are ever going to fix or adjust PvP to align with the wants and needs of those who do it now, and (all but) remove it completely from the game entirely.
You read that right. Remove almost all vestiges of PvP and stop pretending. While this action will likely have lots of negative responses from certain segments of the player-base, ultimately having a token PvP System in this game does a disservice to anyone who comes here looking for that type of game-play. It simply isn't supported in any meaningful way, and it should be clear that if that's what you want, you probably won't be satisfied with what we have.
That leaves a lot of loose ends: the zones, arenas, Badges, etc.
Badges
• Remove all badges directly tied to defeating other players or gaining bounty.
• Retain all badges for completing objectives in PvP Zones (I'll get to that).
PvP IOs
• Add PvP IO drops as a very low chance to drop from defeating Boss class enemies in PvP Zones, and as a slightly larger chance to drop during the "Hero/Villain Incursion" Events that will occur in all former PvP Zones.
• PvP IOs will have an increased chance as present to drop from defeated players in the Arena (I'll get to that too).
Hero/Villain Incursion Events
• As a way to simulate a bit of the flavor lost to PvP Zones: Siren's Call, Bloody Bay, Warburg and Recluse's Victory will have a new zone event added.
• During this zone event (mechanics to be debated): Heroes from the Paragon Heroes faction, or Villains from the Rogue Isles Villains faction will spawn in proportion to the number of heroes/villains in the zone. They will only be hostile to the faction they oppose (PH to Villains, and RIV to Heroes). Defeating these AV class enemies have a chance to drop a PvP IO slightly lower than the old rate to drop from defeated players.
Zones
• All Zones will lose their auto-exemplar mechanic and act like regular zones with standard level range that dictates enemy spawns
• Bloody Bay: Now a Level 15-25 Co-Op Zone
— Add Neo-Shivan spawns
— Add a new Zone Event in which a Shivan Obliterator GM will spawn, presumably triggered by collecting a certain number of Meteor Fragments
— Everything else, will stay as is.
• Warburg: Now a Level 30-38 Co-Op Zone
— Everything will stay as is.
• Siren's Call: Now a Level 20-30 Villain Zone
— Add new Strike Force: the Battle for Siren's Call ~ It will be a 20-30 SF designed to emulate the former object of SC in some way. Not entirely sure how to accomplish that, but it will add a new zone to Red-Side as well as a new SF in a level range where one is needed.
— Add a Story Arc to the Zone consisting of at least 3 new contacts.
— Add a Repeatable Mission contact that tells a bit about the history of the zone through interaction with a Pillar of Ice and Flame.
— Everything else, will stay as is.
• Recluse's Victory: Now a Level 45+ Co-Op Zone
— Everything will stay as is.
Arenas
• The Last Bastion of PvP!
• The ability to fight other players will be retained in the Arena, along with the settings that go with that (1v1, Teaming, Pentad, etc.).
• Additional instanced versions of zones will be added for: SC, BB, RV, and WB.
• Additional options will be added to the interface, essentially, to make it possible to go to pre-i13 PvP or any combination thereof. I seem to recall that even with the current options, some things are lacking and maintain a bit of the "new" PvP.
(Edit: As an additional thought... one could preserve the zones without any changes by adding Ouro crystals to each Arena-space allowing access to Echoes of the zones as they once were... if you want a far less dramatic approach to the whole thing.)