My impression of Staff Fighting (numerical and otherwise)
By
Abyssus,
Posted on: 2012-04-17 19:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Does your in-game experience back that up? Mine doesn't. I often see SS/FAs wonder aloud why they're dying on a Tin Mage or what have you after their endurance bar took a long walk off a short pier. Even more true of TW characters in general. For how easy the forums think endurance management is, a lot of people seem to have trouble with it! I don't always build for sustainable endurance in all situations myself because that can be a build-compromising challenge in some cases.|
Originally Posted by Combat
Secondly, I was trying to find the simplest possible way to show a set's potential. Recharge and endurance are practical concerns that are very important to gameplay, but it takes much more to make up for a lack of damage than to overcome high recharge rates or endurance costs. A spines/sr scrapper simply doesn't possess the basic tools to out damage a war mace/shield scrapper.
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Your criterion is too simplistic. Don't you find it odd that the people who make the game have such a radically different weighting of the value of damage set features?
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Does my anecdotal experience back my predictions up? Yes, mine does.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Does your in-game experience back that up? Mine doesn't. I often see SS/FAs wonder aloud why they're dying on a Tin Mage or what have you after their endurance bar took a long walk off a short pier. Even more true of TW characters in general. For how easy the forums think endurance management is, a lot of people seem to have trouble with it! I don't always build for sustainable endurance in all situations myself because that can be a build-compromising challenge in some cases.
Your criterion is too simplistic. Don't you find it odd that the people who make the game have such a radically different weighting of the value of damage set features? |
Along with 118 pages in the Rikti Pylong Results Thread. But that type of non-empirical evidence is less than worthless, especially for balancing sets.
And the people who make this game have very simple formulas, that completely ignore one of the most important parts of an attack: the animation. Some powersets were designed with animation as part of the equation (Widows for example), but most aren't. It basically is a crap-shoot for the sets that don't, and staff is punished with long animations. Please don't try to say that we should ignore animations just because the devs sometimes do. And if you think endurance sustainability is a holy grail, let me explain something:
I can solve everyone's end problems in three steps.
1. Make the Recovery Serum
2. Make the +recovery buff from the empowerment station
3. Spend 100,000 influence to buy Second Winds from the market*
*If 100,000 inf isn't throwaway money for you, replace second winds with catch a breaths.
My criterion measures potential. It isn't a perfect way to do that, but it does the job.
And if you are wondering my suggestions would do for Staff:
Staff Fighting (with Combat's changes)
Serpent's Reach: 1.2376
Sky Splitter: 1.0998
Precise Strike: 1.05
Which isn't ridiculous. Just competitive. Which is where I think staff should be.
TW/Elec Optimization
Note that I never said anything about animation times and do not accept that you are correct that the devs don't consider them.
Your endurance fix there has precisely the same issue as your suggestion of ageless. It works, but it's situational and there are tradeoffs. In this case the tradeoff happens to be the same: you sacrifice "survivability" inspirations for endurance inspirations. If you're willing to make that trade, boffo, enjoy your TW/DA. I'm sure it will wreck many faces. I'm glad that not every powerset is cut from the same cloth, the game would be much more homogeneous if that were the case.
Endurance completely aside, your proposal ignores many other things about staff fighting. Serpent's reach is the second best melee set ranged attack behind focus, and it beats all of the others by a huge margin. Sky splitter, like eye of the storm, does substantial bonus damage with noteworthy special effects as a part of the set's top chain. Precise strike is a solid if bland attack that by your own analysis is competitive with the likes of shin breaker, street justice's second best attack. Street justice, I remind you, has been put on a pedestal in this and other staff threads as "one of the good ones." Compared to staff, its bag of tricks looks like it came in a Cracker Jack box. What does it really have apart from the one big attack? That makes such a big difference to you? I don't see why.
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Originally Posted by Combat
I can solve everyone's end problems in three steps. 1. Make the Recovery Serum 2. Make the +recovery buff from the empowerment station 3. Spend 100,000 influence to buy Second Winds from the market* *If 100,000 inf isn't throwaway money for you, replace second winds with catch a breaths. My criterion measures potential. It isn't a perfect way to do that, but it does the job. . |
LOLOL with that last MA build you posted to prove MA could get 300 dps except it was such a terrible build no smart person would play and now this advice I'm just gonna assume you solo pylons all day long lol.
PS Temp powers don't work in incarnate trials and inspirations don't drop nearly as often when teamed with 24 others.
Please no one should ever follow any of this guys advice it's just plain bad with a capital B.
I'm gonna post actual numbers of attacks you know the damage they actually do
Staff fighting tier 9,189.9
Broadsword tier 9, 187.7
Dark melee tier 9, 189.9
Dual blades tier 9, 161.5
Fire melee tier 9, 207
Katana tier 9, 164
Martial arts tier 9, 164
Street justice tier 9, 218.8(more then fire? sounds like something needs a nerf)
Titan tier 9, 166
Kinetic melee tier 9, 222.7(no build up or combo points system to up damage seems like a fair trade)
Seems pretty comparable so far
OK lets check the main aoes of some sets(I'll try to use PBAOEs when possible)
Staff fighting EOTS 84.65
Broadsword Whirling Sword 87.59
Dark melee Shadow maul 148.4(still meh cause it's a lame super short cone)
Dual blades Typhoons edge 78.45
Fire melee Fire sword circle 126.7
Katana The lotus drops 91.34
Martial arts dragons tail 81.2
Street justice spinning strike 106(not a true pbaoe but TAOE not nearly as good imo but gets better damage to make up for it)
Titan Whirling Smash 95.05
Kinetic melee Burst 86.02
ok how about the few sets that get range attacks(ST only I'll try)
Staff Serpents reach 123.9
Claws focus 95.66
Kinetic melee Focused Burst 112.9
Spines Impale 137.9
Seriously WTF is people complaining about that staff can only get 260 dps?
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Where's your Damage Serum to eliminate damage concerns? Where is the damage buff from empowerments? The point is that I can do about 99 things to fix my endurance problems. Every single one of those suggestions is open to all characters, available anytime, and not incredibly expensive. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Note that I never said anything about animation times and do not accept that you are correct that the devs don't consider them.
Your endurance fix there has precisely the same issue as your suggestion of ageless. It works, but it's situational and there are tradeoffs. In this case the tradeoff happens to be the same: you sacrifice "survivability" inspirations for endurance inspirations. If you're willing to make that trade, boffo, enjoy your TW/DA. I'm sure it will wreck many faces. I'm glad that not every powerset is cut from the same cloth, the game would be much more homogeneous if that were the case. Endurance completely aside, your proposal ignores many other things about staff fighting. Serpent's reach is the second best melee set ranged attack behind focus, and it beats all of the others by a huge margin. Sky splitter, like eye of the storm, does substantial bonus damage with noteworthy special effects as a part of the set's top chain. Precise strike is a solid if bland attack that by your own analysis is competitive with the likes of shin breaker, street justice's second best attack. Street justice, I remind you, has been put on a pedestal in this and other staff threads as "one of the good ones." Compared to staff, its bag of tricks looks like it came in a Cracker Jack box. What does it really have apart from the one big attack? That makes such a big difference to you? I don't see why. |
And why should it matter that Serpent's Reach is the second best ranged attack already? It is just an attack. Focus is just an attack. And it isn't an amazing one, just an average one. Buffing it to make Staff more competitive in single target makes sense, and shouldn't be rejected just because "ranged attacks have to suck".
Since you brought it up, let's compare Street Justice to Staff to see why people like Street Justice so much more in single target.
Precise Strike has similar DPA to Shin Breaker. However, Shin Breaker has the ability to slot a achilles heel proc, and is likely being boosted by Rib Cracker's -res.
Sky Splitter is very similar to Crushing Uppercut. Both are heavy hitting T9s that gain damage from combos. However, Sky Splitter's long animation time reduces its DPA enough that it is one of the worst single target T9s, while Crushing Uppercut is one of the best even before combos.
And while Street Fighting doesn't have endurance reduction or recharge, it does have a good bag of tricks:
-Resistance and -damage from Rib Cracker
Small chances to stun in a few powers, plus 100% from Crushing Uppercut.
Terrorize from Spinning Strike
Chance to slot achilles' heel in Shin Breaker for even more -res
But mainly, it has one great attack and -resists. Staff has no great attacks and no -resist (ignoring Eye of the Storm because using it in a single target chain lowers DPA even counting for -res). The fact that a level 1 power is its best DPA attack is a problem.
TW/Elec Optimization
Sky splitter also does 20% more damage than you're giving it credit for 85% of the time. It fits into staff's concise top chain with much more reasonable recharge than it takes to get crushing uppercut usable with similar frequency. Most importantly to me, it gives totally unique defensive bonuses when it consumes perfection: CU is nice but let me know when it gives you permable slotted health and stamina on top of the bonus endurance discount you're getting just because of the set you're using. You say you love the deadly efficiency of tomaytoes, I say I prefer the broad staying power of tomahtoes.
Serpent's reach is a ranged attack masquerading as melee attack in terms of all of its stats. That's very significant not just for the combat utility of it but also because it allows you to slot apocalypse in a power you're actually going to use in your chain instead of in an APP mule. I know you know the value of that and I also don't believe that you seriously think that focus is an average attack. Being part of a set that lets you fire it off with a permanent 112.5% damage buff pushes its already-great DPA into the stratosphere, considering claws was once widely thought to be worse than you guys are now calling staff for single target damage.
Between those two powers, staff's top chain has considerable mitigation built in. Staff's aoe chain, GS-IS-GS-EotS, has even more mitigation than that as well as -res, immob and an amazing spot for a FotG proc. Most sets don't even have an aoe chain, but all of this stuff is in addition to the form bonuses. Again I state that there is no way on earth that staff gets to keep all of this in addition to increased damage.
Wb, Combat. I figured you had unsubbed - tried to PM you the other day.
Anyway here is my Staff/ELA stalker, posted this on the stalker forum. Don't know why MIDS isn't exporting my +5 IOs -- all the KCs in MB, recharge IOs, endo IOs, all +5d.
I can't really tell if the recharge time of AS is correct out of hide? I am thinking of ways to optimize and wondering about splitting the stalker IO set to replace some KCs and pick up a slot or two.
The Mako's are SBEs for more proccitude. Tried the SBE build-up proc in SR, but it didn't seem to fire that often and had a short duration.
Attack chain is MB-SR-AS-SS which Microcosm said is just about as good as MB-PS-AS-SS but I wanted a ranged attack and didn't have room for PS and SR.
Thinking about picking up Ageless. Torn between that and rebirth. Don't really need the recharge of Ageless.
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What's the increased damage you're talking about? Is it from Form of the Body in that so the other two forms suffer? And when I say suffer, I mean in their general utility, not their damage output.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Sky splitter also does 20% more damage than you're giving it credit for 85% of the time. It fits into staff's concise top chain with much more reasonable recharge than it takes to get crushing uppercut usable with similar frequency. Most importantly to me, it gives totally unique defensive bonuses when it consumes perfection: CU is nice but let me know when it gives you permable slotted health and stamina on top of the bonus endurance discount you're getting just because of the set you're using. You say you love the deadly efficiency of tomaytoes, I say I prefer the broad staying power of tomahtoes.
... Again I state that there is no way on earth that staff gets to keep all of this in addition to increased damage. |
I'm still not seeing the bonuses (particularly the unslottable +regen and +recovery for 10sec or the slow and -def, also unslottable) as much to say it's a tomahtoe with staying power...and you can't keep that staying power if you choose to do extra damage...especially if you consider that you lose the bonuses from perfection by using finishers.
Not sure if it's been suggested, but I'd actually completely drop the whole 'finisher' mechanic, at least on Form of Soul, basically keeping a 3 stack perfection bonus as long as you keep attacking and drop the mind's PBAoE finisher or change it to the same buff as Sky Splitter's or even combining them so it'd look something like:
Mind's Finisher = Skysplitter (+regen/+recovery/+ToHit)
Soul's Finisher = Eye of the Storm (-def/-rech/-movement)
Body's Finisher = Eye of the Storm (-res), Skysplitter (+res)
I was referring to the damage buff that Combat was proposing to several staff powers.
Like I said, 75% regen and 50% recovery are respectively about even and slightly better than the bonuses from slotted health and stamina. That's a really big bonus when considered alongside form of the soul itself. If it were slottable that would compromise your ability to slot sky splitter as an attack and the values would also be lower. The fact that you don't keep level three perfection on permanently if you're using sky splitter as part of your chain is no impediment at all: that recovery bonus is permanent barring misses, and if sky splitter has level three perfection to cash in then it itself is guaranteed to be affected by the endurance discount, and it's the most costly part of the chain. It's win-win-win with form of the soul.
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Except one of those wins is automatically cashed in for lose when you consider the lackluster effect it adds to Eye of the Storm (it's practically worse than Lotus Drop/Whirling Sword in every way and yet can't be slotted for -def (so no proc)). I wished the bonus to perfection of Mind was something more noticable, like 25-30% rech bonus but how much does 15% bonus do when it's going to be dropping every 6-10sec? I'd concede that Soul's bonus can actually help a good deal (33% reduction in cost is actually substantial even if it drops occasionally) but it feels a waste to ever spend it on a measly amount of -def that is implanted in lots of powers and for free.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I was referring to the damage buff that Combat was proposing to several staff powers.
Like I said, 75% regen and 50% recovery are respectively about even and slightly better than the bonuses from slotted health and stamina. That's a really big bonus when considered alongside form of the soul itself. If it were slottable that would compromise your ability to slot sky splitter as an attack and the values would also be lower. The fact that you don't keep level three perfection on permanently if you're using sky splitter as part of your chain is no impediment at all: that recovery bonus is permanent barring misses, and if sky splitter has level three perfection to cash in then it itself is guaranteed to be affected by the endurance discount, and it's the most costly part of the chain. It's win-win-win with form of the soul. |
But I'm not even asking for more bonuses, just more focused application of the powers' effects. I'd be content with 15% rech if I could use it to help kill a target or bring bring up mitigative powers faster...and I wouldn't feel the stances so cheap if I wasn't spending good buffs for crap ones.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Sky splitter also does 20% more damage than you're giving it credit for 85% of the time. It fits into staff's concise top chain with much more reasonable recharge than it takes to get crushing uppercut usable with similar frequency. Most importantly to me, it gives totally unique defensive bonuses when it consumes perfection: CU is nice but let me know when it gives you permable slotted health and stamina on top of the bonus endurance discount you're getting just because of the set you're using. You say you love the deadly efficiency of tomaytoes, I say I prefer the broad staying power of tomahtoes.
Serpent's reach is a ranged attack masquerading as melee attack in terms of all of its stats. That's very significant not just for the combat utility of it but also because it allows you to slot apocalypse in a power you're actually going to use in your chain instead of in an APP mule. I know you know the value of that and I also don't believe that you seriously think that focus is an average attack. Being part of a set that lets you fire it off with a permanent 112.5% damage buff pushes its already-great DPA into the stratosphere, considering claws was once widely thought to be worse than you guys are now calling staff for single target damage. Between those two powers, staff's top chain has considerable mitigation built in. Staff's aoe chain, GS-IS-GS-EotS, has even more mitigation than that as well as -res, immob and an amazing spot for a FotG proc. Most sets don't even have an aoe chain, but all of this stuff is in addition to the form bonuses. Again I state that there is no way on earth that staff gets to keep all of this in addition to increased damage. |
It shouldn't matter whether or not Serpent's Reach is ranged or melee. This isn't I0, and range is not a defense or a penalty. The fact of the matter is that Serpent's Reach is a long animation, fairly low damage power considering it is one of the best attacks in the set.
Most sets don't need an AoE Chain. In fact, the best set has only ONE AoE. In a world where every melee character can get one or two AoEs from patrons/epics, having good AoE is not about having 3 AoEs from your primary.
Staff is second tier in AoE (first tier being TW, SS, Claws). Close to last in single target. Probably first in mitigation, though not ridiculously better than Katana, Broadsword, etc. It's main distinction is that is has better AoE than the bad sets with some perks. To me, that isn't balanced, and shouldn't be what we balance the game around. That was the way we balanced the game back in the distant past, and it serves only to create crazy OP sets (SS), and horrible sets (DM pre-I3). Perks are extra, damage isn't, and that's the way we should balance the game.
TW/Elec Optimization
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Is it really a fair comparison, though? I see some powers listed with procs and purples, others listed with just buildup, and others with nothing additional. It doesn't seem like a fair comparison at all.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Thank you for posting this <the Scrapper comparison>. Was really needed to really show what I've been trying to say for a while now.
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My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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I think the more direct problem is that when we test the methodology in areas where there is more agreement on the relative offensive strengths of powersets, it doesn't match observation often enough to be reliable. Consider MA: suppose I reverse some of the more recent changes, and restore Cobra Strike to its original version of being primarily a stun, and eliminate Eagle's Claw's crit boost. That doesn't change MA very much given your methodology, but it greatly reduces MA's damage output at all recharge levels. And as I mentioned, it massively underestimates the gap between Katana and Broadsword. Given that margin of error, the gap it implies for Staff Fighting's single target offense is not very high.
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Originally Posted by Combat
Unfortunately, it does have problems, and the biggest is that some powersets rely on other factors rather than base DPA to create damage.
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That's a play of wording. If Staff is "close to last" in single target, it is also "close to first" in AoE. Its in fourth place by your reckoning out of sixteen sets (only Brutes have both Claws and SS, so I'm assuming the ordinal comparison is there). That is the top 25% of all sets in AoE, and it presumes sets like SS actually outdo Staff. If you consistently saturate the target cap, that might be true, but in lots of other situations its unlikely something with one AoE can beat something with three.
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Originally Posted by Combat
Staff is second tier in AoE (first tier being TW, SS, Claws). Close to last in single target. Probably first in mitigation, though not ridiculously better than Katana, Broadsword, etc. It's main distinction is that is has better AoE than the bad sets with some perks. To me, that isn't balanced, and shouldn't be what we balance the game around. That was the way we balanced the game back in the distant past, and it serves only to create crazy OP sets (SS), and horrible sets (DM pre-I3). Perks are extra, damage isn't, and that's the way we should balance the game.
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That seems like a good build. Personally, my stalker is a /dark, and I'm aiming for a high-survivability build. My goal was to reach the incarnate cap when using Shadow Meld, and to combine that with perma-hasten. Incarnates will be Agility, Degenerative, Ageless, (Assault). |
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Wb, Combat. I figured you had unsubbed - tried to PM you the other day.
Anyway here is my Staff/ELA stalker, posted this on the stalker forum. Don't know why MIDS isn't exporting my +5 IOs -- all the KCs in MB, recharge IOs, endo IOs, all +5d. I can't really tell if the recharge time of AS is correct out of hide? I am thinking of ways to optimize and wondering about splitting the stalker IO set to replace some KCs and pick up a slot or two. The Mako's are SBEs for more proccitude. Tried the SBE build-up proc in SR, but it didn't seem to fire that often and had a short duration. Attack chain is MB-SR-AS-SS which Microcosm said is just about as good as MB-PS-AS-SS but I wanted a ranged attack and didn't have room for PS and SR. Thinking about picking up Ageless. Torn between that and rebirth. Don't really need the recharge of Ageless. Code:
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Personally, the chain I am running is PS-SR-AS-SS. When I looked at the various chains, it appeared like PS would enough damage to overcome the -res affect of MB. To tell for yourself, use Arcanaville's method to calculate -res from procs, which if I remember right is 20*(10 / time of chain * 4 + 10). The base DS of the MB chain is 11.47 in 7.392 seconds, for 1.552 DSpS. Therefore, the -res would be 3.08 if I am doing this correctly. So the base DPS would go to about 1.6. In contrast, the base DPA for the PS chain is 1.589. So the difference between the chains is very, very minimal. Personally, I prefer to use a hard hitter because I find that it makes exemplaring easier (combined with +recharge bonuses from purples). I do believe that it would be better to have SR in the chain for the purple.
And I've been unsubbed for a while due to finance, but plan to resub around May. Premiums cannot respond to PMs, which is why I never responded. When I do, I'll post my updated build and update my TW/Elec thread (I've since added an alternate build with crushing blow and 45% to smashing and lethal, and most importantly a sustainable attack chain). I should also get time to try that build on a Pylon.
TW/Elec Optimization
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I'm not sure Staff would end up in fourth place. For one thing, it cannot take Shield, which will slightly hurt its potential (my DM/SD did decent AoE just from Fireball and Shield Charge). I was simply saying that those 3 sets were definitely better, but the Staff would definitely beat single target focused sets (MA, Katana/BS, DM, etc.). So its at a point where it beats out sets that aren't focused on AoE without getting to the point that it competes with the top sets. Probably "balanced" AoE. However, a lot of AoE can be added just from patrons and epics, and Staff isn't as good as a few sets at buffing those attacks. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's a play of wording. If Staff is "close to last" in single target, it is also "close to first" in AoE. Its in fourth place by your reckoning out of sixteen sets (only Brutes have both Claws and SS, so I'm assuming the ordinal comparison is there). That is the top 25% of all sets in AoE, and it presumes sets like SS actually outdo Staff. If you consistently saturate the target cap, that might be true, but in lots of other situations its unlikely something with one AoE can beat something with three.
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So I'd put it in a tier of powersets that do okay AoE, but aren't "farm-sets". That would include Dual Blades (largely because of combining blinding feint with outside AoEs), War Mace, maybe Spines. I can't say for certain is better than those sets.
And while Super Strength only has one AoE, usually that AoE is combined with others, and those are stronger because of rage. And I've never found my SS tankers or brutes to feel like anything less than #1 in AoE in virtually every situation, regardless of number AoEs.
TW/Elec Optimization
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I'm not going to insult you. I'm just going to ignore you.|
Originally Posted by Lucky666
LOLOL with that last MA build you posted to prove MA could get 300 dps except it was such a terrible build no smart person would play and now this advice I'm just gonna assume you solo pylons all day long lol.
PS Temp powers don't work in incarnate trials and inspirations don't drop nearly as often when teamed with 24 others. Please no one should ever follow any of this guys advice it's just plain bad with a capital B. |
But if you think I'm silly or stupid, read this
I know what I'm talking about. I made a concept build to prove a point (MA could reach a certain level of DPS, and achieve that with a good build given Assault), but I know full well how to build an effective build. I started playing in May 2004, and I've used those endurance tips to level many characters without good endurance tools.
BTW, actual damage numbers are simply not very useful. Would you take an attack that deals 5000 damage base if it took 5 days to activate? Staff isn't bad because it's T9 deals low damage, but because it doesn't do enough damage for its activation time.
As I level a few Staff characters, I'm beginning to think that the easiest fix would be to make Form of Mind and Form of Body more useful. I could see doubling the values of each of the forms, making each form about as useful as an SO.
TW/Elec Optimization
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That's a feeling. I don't think its fair to say that Staff computes lower than Titan Weapons, but even if SS computes lower than Staff that's ok because it feels fine.|
Originally Posted by Combat
And while Super Strength only has one AoE, usually that AoE is combined with others, and those are stronger because of rage. And I've never found my SS tankers or brutes to feel like anything less than #1 in AoE in virtually every situation, regardless of number AoEs.
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Unless you have a full AoE chain, what usually matters for AoE is not DPA, but DPC - damage per cycle second, or average damage per second per AoE. And no one has a full AoE chain composed of only Foot Stomp.
Yes, you can add AoE damage to SS, but you can do that to all sets. You have to be consistent with your comparison, or else you run the very high risk of comparing Staff to every other set with a different set of metrics each one designed to make Staff look bad.
Realistically speaking, its extremely difficult for anything with less than three legitimate AoEs to out-AoE something with three. Titan Weapons has four: its a top AoE performer. Claws also has four, but it also suffers from a Castle miscalculation that makes all of its AoEs do more damage than intended. Staff is probably one of the better 3-AoE sets in AoE damage particularly when its intrinsic recharge buff is factored in.
Another area where imprecise comparisons can be problematic. You compared Claws and SS to Staff, so you're talking about Brutes, and Rage is diluted for Brutes: it can't have the same incremental benefit to AoEs as it can on Tankers. But if we switch our comparison point to Tankers, Claws, Katana, and Broadsword disappear and Ice Melee and Martial Arts enter. For Tankers, the net result of that swap is probably going to make Staff look somewhat better, because while Broadsword has low single target damage, Martial Arts has much lower AoE and Ice Melee has low everything.
By combining all the sets you're ranking Super Strength based on Rage's performance for Tankers, but then also comparing Staff to Claws and Katana which Tankers don't get. That skews the comparison when it comes to rankings.
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The experience I had with SS is that it would probably just be "good" with Footstomp. However, when I add 2 more AoEs from patron sets, and combine them with Rage, I instantly get an AoE chain that Staff cannot compete with (for the record, my SS brutes were SS/SR and SS/SD, not SS/Fire, and my tank with Invul/SS). That is largely due to the bonus damage from Rage, which is significant even on Brutes. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's a feeling. I don't think its fair to say that Staff computes lower than Titan Weapons, but even if SS computes lower than Staff that's ok because it feels fine.
Unless you have a full AoE chain, what usually matters for AoE is not DPA, but DPC - damage per cycle second, or average damage per second per AoE. And no one has a full AoE chain composed of only Foot Stomp. Yes, you can add AoE damage to SS, but you can do that to all sets. You have to be consistent with your comparison, or else you run the very high risk of comparing Staff to every other set with a different set of metrics each one designed to make Staff look bad. Realistically speaking, its extremely difficult for anything with less than three legitimate AoEs to out-AoE something with three. Titan Weapons has four: its a top AoE performer. Claws also has four, but it also suffers from a Castle miscalculation that makes all of its AoEs do more damage than intended. Staff is probably one of the better 3-AoE sets in AoE damage particularly when its intrinsic recharge buff is factored in. Another area where imprecise comparisons can be problematic. You compared Claws and SS to Staff, so you're talking about Brutes, and Rage is diluted for Brutes: it can't have the same incremental benefit to AoEs as it can on Tankers. But if we switch our comparison point to Tankers, Claws, Katana, and Broadsword disappear and Ice Melee and Martial Arts enter. For Tankers, the net result of that swap is probably going to make Staff look somewhat better, because while Broadsword has low single target damage, Martial Arts has much lower AoE and Ice Melee has low everything. By combining all the sets you're ranking Super Strength based on Rage's performance for Tankers, but then also comparing Staff to Claws and Katana which Tankers don't get. That skews the comparison when it comes to rankings. |
Staff will likely beat out most sets not named Super Strength with 1 AoE. It will likely be behind TW and Claws because TW gets tons of high-damage AoEs and Claws gets both a large number of AoEs and a decent damage buff.
Staff is good at AoE, but because Form of Body is so insignificant and other sets can supplement their AoE (to be fair, so can staff, though usually the benefits of having extra AoEs aren't very great if you can chain 3 together), I just have a hard time claiming them as a top tier.
AoEs are harder to judge than single target attacks though, so I usually don't try to go into numerical comparisons of AoE sets.
TW/Elec Optimization
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That's an interesting claim seeing as the only way for a SS brute to have an aoe chain is to go either Mu or Leviathan and take every aoe on offer. Even then you'll be constantly shuffling around to take advantage of cones. If you mean a "close enough" gappy chain then the only option is Mu and you essentially have to focus on recharge and nothing else. Staff's aoe chain doesn't require anywhere near the same level of build focus, is trivially easy to fire at melee range without taking advantage of the cone dance due to the large arcs on its cones, and is also easily gapless.|
Originally Posted by Combat
The experience I had with SS is that it would probably just be "good" with Footstomp. However, when I add 2 more AoEs from patron sets, and combine them with Rage, I instantly get an AoE chain that Staff cannot compete with
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Heh instead of waiting for a reply and returning with a rejoinder, though, you obviously are referring exclusively to SS/FA/Mu. That's one combination. SS/FA/Mu is pretty cool but you don't get to call it baseline performance for SS. It is the most cookie cutter of builds and it's lucky for you fans of SS that the devs don't judge performance based on specific set combinations. If they looked at SS/FA/Mu in the same way you're trying to use it to claim that staff is underperforming, all of the sets involved would be nerfed by next week.
Literally all my complaints about the set would disappear if Fly was animated as you spinning the staff above your head.
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I've never played a SS/Fire character. I already said my experience was with /SR and /SD brutes and a Invul tanker, none of which were incredibly IOed (ie <100 million). If I remember right, the SR had just enough to get to 45%, about 25% recharge buffs, and the +recharge proc from FF, and the SS/SD had about the same amount. At the time I was playing them, brutes didn't have access to the fire epic, and I chose Mu on one character and Leviathan on the other, because neither made sense with Soul or Mace. I think it is fair to say that I know more about the SS powerset than you, and it doesn't take /Fire to be one of the best AoE sets in the game. You know what they say about assuming.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
That's an interesting claim seeing as the only way for a SS brute to have an aoe chain is to go either Mu or Leviathan and take every aoe on offer. Even then you'll be constantly shuffling around to take advantage of cones. If you mean a "close enough" gappy chain then the only option is Mu and you essentially have to focus on recharge and nothing else. Staff's aoe chain doesn't require anywhere near the same level of build focus, is trivially easy to fire at melee range without taking advantage of the cone dance due to the large arcs on its cones, and is also easily gapless.
Heh instead of waiting for a reply and returning with a rejoinder, though, you obviously are referring exclusively to SS/FA/Mu. That's one combination. SS/FA/Mu is pretty cool but you don't get to call it baseline performance for SS. It is the most cookie cutter of builds and it's lucky for you fans of SS that the devs don't judge performance based on specific set combinations. If they looked at SS/FA/Mu in the same way you're trying to use it to claim that staff is underperforming, all of the sets involved would be nerfed by next week. |
And about the "cookie-cutter build" required to make SS good at AoE... I could make at AoE build with SS with only FS, one patron/epic AoE and the FF proc. No other IOs, no HOs, no other damage buffs besides Rage, so no "super-tight build focus". FS does more damage in less time than Eye of the Storm (and the recharge on Eye of the Storm isn't much faster), and does significantly more DPC (Damage per Cycle) and DPA than Eye of the Storm when accounting for Rage. When you add any patron or epic AoE, you get better AoE damage than Staff can do with its three AoEs, even with only 2 AoE attacks.
TW has more damage by having stronger AoEs in greater numbers (WS had a DPA better than any staff SINGLE target attack, and a quicker recharge time than EotS). Claws has a large number of powerful AoEs and the same type of +damage buffing as SS, thought they benefit less because of redraw.
TW/Elec Optimization
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A specific example would make it easier to test that claim, and under what set of conditions it could be true.|
Originally Posted by Combat
The experience I had with SS is that it would probably just be "good" with Footstomp. However, when I add 2 more AoEs from patron sets, and combine them with Rage, I instantly get an AoE chain that Staff cannot compete with
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Incidentally, you're aware that numerically speaking Rage on a Brute has the net effect of increasing damage by about twelve percent, factoring in the crash, right? More is better, and Rage is more, but its not the same kind of jump in damage that it is on Tankers (~ thirty percent more damage, almost the difference between having two and having three comparable AoEs).
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If you take all the attacks in a powerset and list them in descending order by DPA, and then for each attack calculate its cycle time (cast + recharge) its efficiency (cast / cycle time), and its DPS (damage / cycletime) and then tally a running sum of efficiency and DPS, at the point where efficiency becomes greater than 1.0 you take the DPS Sum and divide by the efficiency sum. That's the PeakDR estimated damage rating for that powerset. If you vary recharge times by a specified recharge speed factor, you can calculate this dynamically for different levels of recharge.
I have a spreadsheet which I need to update for new powersets, but PeakDR beautifully shows that Broadsword has two problems. The first is that its attacks have low efficiency. That means you need more of them to make a complete attack chain, or alternatively more recharge. This means you have to go deeper into the set to make a full chain, and that runs into the second problem with Broadsword: after the first three attacks all with decent DPA, DPA fall off a cliff with Broadsword. Going from the third best attack to the fourth for Katana goes from Gambler's Cut at approximately 1.0 DS/sec (assuming 10% criticals) to Sting of the Wasp at about 0.97. Broadsword goes from Disembowel at 1.09 to Slash at 0.69. That, well, disembowels Broadsword's single target DPS.
You need a lot of recharge to eliminate that problem: enough to never need Slash. And that's a lot of recharge. If you can do that, BS can catch up with Katana, but Katana will still likely have a few percentage points of edge (PeakDR's margin for error averages about 5% for most actual powersets).
Incidentally, assuming I've entered the numbers correctly into this old spreadsheet, PeakDR predicts Staff Fighting's single target damage to be roughly comparable to Claws, depending on the amount of recharge, and not counting the effects of Follow Up or Form buffs or debuffs (but counting form bonus damage on sky splitter).
Incidentally, Broadsword's three top DPA attacks do not have better cyclical DPS than Katana's. Golden Dragonfly and Soaring Dragon both edge out Head Splitter and Hack, and Gambler's Cut smokes them all. Also, somehow you omitted Golden Dragonfly as the best DPA attack for Katana.
First, the program I made to get data from city of data had a mistake on Golden Dragonfly, and listed its DS and animation as the same, making it a .94 DPA attack instead of a 1.32. So put Katana where it belongs, probably around Dual Blades/Martial Arts.
Secondly, I was trying to find the simplest possible way to show a set's potential. Recharge and endurance are practical concerns that are very important to gameplay, but it takes much more to make up for a lack of damage than to overcome high recharge rates or endurance costs. A spines/sr scrapper simply doesn't possess the basic tools to out damage a war mace/shield scrapper.
PeakDR is a good concept to show where sets usually end up damage wise. If I had the time, I probably would have done something similar. But I think that taking the best three attacks is a very simple way of showing the difference between powersets to a layperson.
Unfortunately, it does have problems, and the biggest is that some powersets rely on other factors rather than base DPA to create damage. Claws is a great example, because a lot of Claws DPS comes from followup adding 37.5% +damage per stack, which is more than double the contribution from Form of Body. Really, I should have taken the powers and multiplied by (1.95 + average damage buff)*(1+average -res)+acceptable procs. However, I simply didn't have the time.
I find the breakpoint is about 1.32. A good DPS set usually has at least one power over 1.32 base DPA with a decent cycle time, without a significant drop-off in the other powers, OR significant forms of +dam. The "meh" point is around 1.00 DPA, and anything below that simply starts to feel weak. Though nothing compares to Barb Swipe's .35 DPA, worse than almost every set's AoE.
TW/Elec Optimization