My impression of Staff Fighting (numerical and otherwise)
By
Abyssus,
Posted on: 2012-04-17 19:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Electric is better on other ATs, but gains considerably in single target like every Stalker conversion. So I can understand why it felt worse in the AoE department on a stalker.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I can't agree that mace is really competitive with staff for aoe given the fact that its only power that ticks as many boxes as all of staff's powers is crowd control. Having recently played and purpled out an elec stalker, I also dispute that its aoe is all that. It's a great set but it is mediocre at aoe, particularly given the fact that lightning rod has the pseudopet damage cap and cannot critical.
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Quote:
| SS is better at aoe if you count the fact that rage's buff turns patron aoes into real killers. That it does, fair point. TW is better at aoe because TW is broken and should be severely nerfed. |
Quote:
| Spines is an odd set to bring up since you already used it as an example of a set with much worse single target, which it is. Claws is great at aoe, I won't deny that. Fire melee is in my view one of the absolute worst aoe sets along with energy melee: breath of fire is not just slow, it also requires you to do the bunnyhop shuffle to get anywhere close to its target cap. FSC is bog standard. So, in my view there are three sets that are arguably better than staff for aoe. I can live with that. |
Fire Melee is different on tankers, but I can accept it as worse because its AoEs either take over 3 seconds or are annoying/weak.
Also, I'd say Kinetic Melee is better for stalkers only, because Burst currently procs 100% of the time from hide.
Quote:
| None of those things are baked in. All of them require one compromise or another, the most significant being ageless and body mastery. If you take body mastery you're not taking blaze mastery. If you take ageless you're not taking rebirth. SS/FA is not running Assault without cardiac, ageless, or a very endurance-focused body mastery build. Staff/anything for non-stalkers can easily run as many toggles as you care for and you're free to take musculature, rebirth, and the APP of your choice. That's huge and it bears repeating, so get used to me repeating it. |
To put it bluntly, the ability to use every offensive tool in the game doesn't matter if the set is still behind after using every trick in the book.
TW/Elec Optimization
Of course, and what I'm saying is that staff's tradeoff is different. It's much easier to justify taking those offensive tools since it already covers the gaps that we're so used to covering in other ways. Musculature is basically bundled free with staff fighting as far as I'm concerned, and soon the same will be true of assault. At this point you'd have to tell me with a straight face that getting almost 300 DPS isn't anything special in and of itself because it isn't just that staff can get there, it's that it can do it while still keeping all of this other stuff.
I don't care about pylon times in a vacuum and if you look at staff in that light you may well be disappointed, what I care about is that it can do very good damage in single target as well as aoe with amazing endurance management and a gaggle of other little tricks for those blue moon situations. You don't get to say musculature and assault don't count for staff unless I get to say that ageless and cardiac don't count for other sets. The truth is they do count and reaching your ideal build is all about balancing the myriad factors available. Staff does this in a novel way, that doesn't mean it doesn't do it.
You did hit upon my conceit in this thread: yes, the forms besides soul are essentially worthless in my opinion. They might be good for a laugh and the +tohit bonus in particular has some real applications, but for my money it's soul all the way. I don't count that against staff's diversity because that's my perspective alone.
Quote:
Here's the thing: I can get better and do more on other sets without the sacrifices. I do better AoE and single target on Claws, SS, TW, Mace, and Electric. I can also do better single target on numerous other sets. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Of course, and what I'm saying is that staff's tradeoff is different. It's much easier to justify taking those offensive tools since it already covers the gaps that we're so used to covering in other ways. Musculature is basically bundled free with staff fighting as far as I'm concerned, and soon the same will be true of assault. At this point you'd have to tell me with a straight face that getting almost 300 DPS isn't anything special in and of itself because it isn't just that staff can get there, it's that it can do it while still keeping all of this other stuff.
I don't care about pylon times in a vacuum and if you look at staff in that light you may well be disappointed, what I care about is that it can do very good damage in single target as well as aoe with amazing endurance management and a gaggle of other little tricks for those blue moon situations. You don't get to say musculature and assault don't count for staff unless I get to say that ageless and cardiac don't count for other sets. The truth is they do count and reaching your ideal build is all about balancing the myriad factors available. Staff does this in a novel way, that doesn't mean it doesn't do it. You did hit upon my conceit in this thread: yes, the forms besides soul are essentially worthless in my opinion. They might be good for a laugh and the +tohit bonus in particular has some real applications, but for my money it's soul all the way. I don't count that against staff's diversity because that's my perspective alone. |
Fact of the matter is, staff isn't competitive enough in the AoE department to make up for its low single target damage (and remember, I'm even counting a power that isn't in game yet), even accounting for its end reduction.
Basically:
Staff + Musc/Assault = 270ish single target, decent AoE, end sufficient
Claws/TW/SS/Mace/Electric + Ageless = 300+ single, great AoE, end sufficient
Literally every other set but spines = 300+ DPS, AoE?, end sufficient
Spines = lolDPS, Quills, end sufficient
That is the problem. By making the adjustments I suggest, staff would be balanced in the end game against those sets. It wouldn't be the best DPS set (probably top third though), would be good at AoE, and versatile. In other words, a set I would suggest to someone looking for fun at level 50.
At this point, I would suggest staff to anyone more concerned about leveling and "enjoying" the game than about end game. Probably a lot of people like that.
But to a person concerned about late game performance, especially damage?
Fuggedaboudit.
TW/Elec Optimization
Well all I can say is that I hope those other meleers don't want to use rebirth or barrier. If they choose to do so they're going to have some hard choices to make about the feasibility of continuing to run either assault or tough and weave, possibly more. Ageless does a lot of heavy lifting. If you can agree with me on that point, and we can also agree that staff doesn't need ageless, then we've just agreed that there's something good about staff beyond the damage numbers alone.
There were already multiple threads about staff melee. In the scrapper forums, general ATs forum and on the beta forums.
Why does there need to be another one in a different sub-forum, that traditionally has not been used for power-set 'balance' and alterations.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
Quote:
White name. I'm a white name. That's why. |
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
There were already multiple threads about staff melee. In the scrapper forums, general ATs forum and on the beta forums.
Why does there need to be another one in a different sub-forum, that traditionally has not been used for power-set 'balance' and alterations. |
I'm sorry, but this doesn't seem to fit under any other ALL ACCESS forum. And I used math that was missing from other threads.
To PleaseRecycle:
Yes, Staff has an advantage outside of damage. That's why I made one after all. But the problem is that it gives up too much for too little. And in order match other sets in damage, it has to give up the survivability of Melee for Assault.
The problem is that no one will realize that Staff Fighting is not the same set at 50 that it is at 10, 20, or 30.
TW/Elec Optimization
That's kind of what I like about it. The reason I don't want to see the damage adjusted upward is that I don't believe the powers guys would agree that staff should keep everything it has right now and also get more damage. Frankly, form of the soul is a little bit too good and I suspect it is the first thing that would be "looked at."
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I'm currently in the middle of updating my MA/SR build and would very much like to see that 300dps MA build.
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Originally Posted by Combat
Here's the thing: I can get better and do more on other sets without the sacrifices. I do better AoE and single target on Claws, SS, TW, Mace, and Electric. I can also do better single target on numerous other sets.
Fact of the matter is, staff isn't competitive enough in the AoE department to make up for its low single target damage (and remember, I'm even counting a power that isn't in game yet), even accounting for its end reduction. Basically: Staff + Musc/Assault = 270ish single target, decent AoE, end sufficient Claws/TW/SS/Mace/Electric + Ageless = 300+ single, great AoE, end sufficient Literally every other set but spines = 300+ DPS, AoE?, end sufficient Spines = lolDPS, Quills, end sufficient That is the problem. By making the adjustments I suggest, staff would be balanced in the end game against those sets. It wouldn't be the best DPS set (probably top third though), would be good at AoE, and versatile. In other words, a set I would suggest to someone looking for fun at level 50. At this point, I would suggest staff to anyone more concerned about leveling and "enjoying" the game than about end game. Probably a lot of people like that. But to a person concerned about late game performance, especially damage? Fuggedaboudit. |
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Ha, as of today Hybrid's mode of operation has changed. No more large endurance cost, no longer permanent. No real impact on my staff stance, either. Where I'd have run assault other toggles will fit, and I still say any damage increase would have an impact elsewhere in the set. A little disappointing, but then again assault was looking kind of unbalanced itself.
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I was counting on Assault Hybrid. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm currently in the middle of updating my MA/SR build and would very much like to see that 300dps MA build.
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Probably could do it with very liberal proc slotting, assault from leadership, +dam bonuses, musculature, reactive, and running Storm Kick>Crane>Storm>Crippling.
TW/Elec Optimization
Haven't read all the posts (most though) but wanted to throw my 2cents in.
First off, i've already rolled two staff brutes, /elec and /invuln, and took the invlun to 25 and the elec to 38. In the early levels the set is a ton of fun, probabaly the greatest time i've ever had on a low level toon due to form of soul to let me completely ignore my blue bar. And it looks amazing, imo.
That said, i have to agree that it starts off strong but really does start to feel a great deal weaker, imo, with age. While the added range on all the AoEs and attacks is nice, it doesnt really feel like the set is doing the amount of AoE damage that i would expect. Simply, on all SOs, my claws brute with just one AoE, spin, it felt like i was doing just as much if not better AoE damage. To me, it just doesnt feel right, not to even mention how the ST feels. Sky splitter at 32 helped a great deal but that attack feels pretty meh, long-ish animation for not so amazing damage.
All of this is fine with me though. Just because it's new doesnt mean it needs to be in the top 5 melee sets for everything, imo. I do feel that, in some way, the set should be changed. Not comfortable really calling for a buff, just needs something. I never really realized how much i would miss having no BU or the tohitt that comes with it. Maybe add a tohitt bonus to form of body to make up for this? It just really feels like trading the BU for the forms, while nice in the early levels, seems to hurt alot more than i expected.
Really, just the fact that it seems like claws, while only really counting one AoE, is out AoEing staff just doesnt seem right. Now that i think about it, i think it would have been nice to replace IS, the one stalkers don't get, with another PbAoE. The more i think about it, the more it makes sense. Stalkers get more balanced ST damage, while scrapper, brutes, and tanks receive another good AoE, not some iffy cone.
Bottom line, imo, staff is nice. It's shiney. It's fun to go through the low levels with, and it looks cool. Hopefully i'll find a secondary i feel pairs nice with it and take one to 50. I don't see myself running much incarnate content, investing IOs, or really that much time into it after 50, though. The set just doesnt feel competetive on any level, AoE, ST, or versatility, imo.
Also, i feel that saying staff won't truly shine until i23 and the hybrid slot shouldn't be recognized as a valid arguement for balance. Not everyone has access to incarnate content material, even though you have to pay for staff fighting. If staff will only be worth anything at level 50 with the hybrid slot, i think that's arguement enough something needs to be changed, imo.
Also, side question i've been meaning to ask on the forums (sorry, not trying to derail), how are people slotting guarded spin? It's not exactly a parry/da clone, as i would slot for acc,rech, and def on my kat/bs toons. What's everyone one else doing?
This whole post is based purely on my perception, -absolutely- no number crunching, and my opinion.
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Not that I'm contesting your overall findings, but this statement doesn't work. It's only a testament of the fact that people love to play with new power sets and flood the game with them for the first few weeks.
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Originally Posted by Combat
Just an update: I've leveled my Staff/Dark Stalker to level 12. Along the way, I would say 75% of my teammates were staff fighters, a testament to how high the interest was in the set.
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Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Quote:
Lets say every one of those attacks was slotted with a proc as strong as Hecatomb. That would generate about 24.34 dps by itself. And lets say that I have Reactive Radial and get 75% chance at the DoT. That would generate an additional 34.57 dps. And lets say that the target is continuously affected by the maximum stacked Reactive resistance debuff of -10% anyway. That would amplify all my damage by 10%. Doing all of that simultaneously, I would still need enough recharge to run that chain gapless *and* have a total damage buff of 2.70 to reach 300 dps from slotting and global damage buffs. Assuming all three attacks crit at their higher rate.|
Originally Posted by Combat
I was counting on Assault Hybrid.
Probably could do it with very liberal proc slotting, assault from leadership, +dam bonuses, musculature, reactive, and running Storm Kick>Crane>Storm>Crippling. |
Tier 4 musculature core grants +32.25% damage after ED factoring in the ED exemption. Assault grants +10.5%.
Under this scenario, which I don't think is really even possible, you still would fall a bit short. Realistically, even if you go all out here, I think you're looking at closer to 260.
Staff single target under these extreme circumstances is probably only about 15% behind or so, with dramatically better AoE options. That's based on PS-SR-PS-SS, which seems to have about the same recharge requirements as SK-CK-SK-CAK (the critical path seems to be SK-CK-SK for MA which requires at least 3.25 recharge on SK, about the same recharge as required on SS for PS-SR-PS-SS). Also I'm pretty sure there isn't a better MA chain than SK-CK-SK-CAK, but I'm not certain what the optimal chain is for Staff yet.
Hybrid Assault could have gotten MA there, but it also would have gotten Staff there as well.
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Quote:
What about something like this? 40.5% damage buff, tons of procs, requires ageless. Just a theoretical construct of course, but technically possible.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Lets say every one of those attacks was slotted with a proc as strong as Hecatomb. That would generate about 24.34 dps by itself. And lets say that I have Reactive Radial and get 75% chance at the DoT. That would generate an additional 34.57 dps. And lets say that the target is continuously affected by the maximum stacked Reactive resistance debuff of -10% anyway. That would amplify all my damage by 10%. Doing all of that simultaneously, I would still need enough recharge to run that chain gapless *and* have a total damage buff of 2.70 to reach 300 dps from slotting and global damage buffs. Assuming all three attacks crit at their higher rate.
Tier 4 musculature core grants +32.25% damage after ED factoring in the ED exemption. Assault grants +10.5%. Under this scenario, which I don't think is really even possible, you still would fall a bit short. Realistically, even if you go all out here, I think you're looking at closer to 260. Staff single target under these extreme circumstances is probably only about 15% behind or so, with dramatically better AoE options. That's based on PS-SR-PS-SS, which seems to have about the same recharge requirements as SK-CK-SK-CAK (the critical path seems to be SK-CK-SK for MA which requires at least 3.25 recharge on SK, about the same recharge as required on SS for PS-SR-PS-SS). Also I'm pretty sure there isn't a better MA chain than SK-CK-SK-CAK, but I'm not certain what the optimal chain is for Staff yet. Hybrid Assault could have gotten MA there, but it also would have gotten Staff there as well. |
I don't have time to calculate the attacks out, so just going by mids numbers:
Storm Kick: 361.5
Crane Kick: 434.5
Crippling Axe Kick: 441
Total: 1598
So, 275 before reactive, and over 300 with reactive, by your numbers (usually, I go with 14 for reactive).
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.954
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Martial Arts
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Storm Kick -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), Mako-Dam%(3), GS-%Dam(3), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(5), HO:Nucle(5), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15), RedFtn-Def(33), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(33), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(34), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(7)
Level 4: Agile -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(34)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 8: Crane Kick -- HO:Nucle(A), Hectmb-Dmg(9), Mako-Dam%(9), T'Death-Dam%(11), GS-%Dam(11), ExStrk-Dam%(13)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Focus Chi -- AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-Rchg(17)
Level 14: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 16: Dodge -- DefBuff-I(A), Ksmt-ToHit+(23)
Level 18: Crippling Axe Kick -- SScrappersS-Rchg/+Crit(A), SScrappersS-Dmg/Rchg(19), SScrappersS-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), SScrappersS-Acc/Dmg(21), Mako-Dam%(21), TotHntr-Dam%(23)
Level 20: Quickness -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(31), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 24: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(25)
Level 26: Dragon's Tail -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(27), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(29)
Level 28: Lucky -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFtn-EndRdx(43), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(46), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def(33), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFtn-EndRdx(37), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(40), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 35: Evasion -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def(37), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(37), RedFtn-EndRdx(40), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(40), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 38: Ring of Fire -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(39), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(39)
Level 41: Fire Blast -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(42), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Fire Ball -- Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Ragnrk-Dmg(46)
Level 47: Char -- Lock-%Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Hold(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Dev'n-Hold%(50), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
------------
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(17), EndMod-I(31)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
TW/Elec Optimization
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Combat
What about something like this? 40.5% damage buff, tons of procs, requires ageless. Just a theoretical construct of course, but technically possible.
I don't have time to calculate the attacks out, so just going by mids numbers: Storm Kick: 361.5 Crane Kick: 434.5 Crippling Axe Kick: 441 Total: 1598 So, 275 before reactive, and over 300 with reactive, by your numbers (usually, I go with 14 for reactive). Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.954 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Magic Scrapper Primary Power Set: Martial Arts Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes Power Pool: Speed Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Leaping Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Storm Kick -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), Mako-Dam%(3), GS-%Dam(3), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(5), HO:Nucle(5), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7) Level 1: Focused Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15), RedFtn-Def(33), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(33), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(34), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(34) Level 2: Focused Senses -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(7) Level 4: Agile -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(34) Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13) Level 8: Crane Kick -- HO:Nucle(A), Hectmb-Dmg(9), Mako-Dam%(9), T'Death-Dam%(11), GS-%Dam(11), ExStrk-Dam%(13) Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 12: Focus Chi -- AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-Rchg(17) Level 14: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 16: Dodge -- DefBuff-I(A), Ksmt-ToHit+(23) Level 18: Crippling Axe Kick -- SScrappersS-Rchg/+Crit(A), SScrappersS-Dmg/Rchg(19), SScrappersS-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), SScrappersS-Acc/Dmg(21), Mako-Dam%(21), TotHntr-Dam%(23) Level 20: Quickness -- Empty(A) Level 22: Boxing -- Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(31), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(31) Level 24: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(25) Level 26: Dragon's Tail -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(27), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(29) Level 28: Lucky -- DefBuff-I(A) Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFtn-EndRdx(43), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(46), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46) Level 32: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def(33), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFtn-EndRdx(37), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(40), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50) Level 35: Evasion -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def(37), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(37), RedFtn-EndRdx(40), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(40), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43) Level 38: Ring of Fire -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(39), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(39) Level 41: Fire Blast -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(42), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(43) Level 44: Fire Ball -- Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Ragnrk-Dmg(46) Level 47: Char -- Lock-%Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Hold(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Dev'n-Hold%(50), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(50) Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A) Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon ------------ Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A) Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(15) Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A) Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(17), EndMod-I(31) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Critical Hit Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run |
That build is meh at best. No heal aid self or even rebirth since you said you needed ageless which means chugging greens, low HP even with all the accolades on, tough is slotted poorly, no travel power, no eagles claw for the added crit bonus for dragons tail.
Might get the DPS you speak of but wont get the job done in hard content like incarnate trials so unless you just like soloing pylons all day ya this build just wouldn't actually cut it.
Quote:
I SAID THAT.|
Originally Posted by Lucky666
That build is meh at best. No heal aid self or even rebirth since you said you needed ageless which means chugging greens, low HP even with all the accolades on, tough is slotted poorly, no travel power, no eagles claw for the added crit bonus for dragons tail.
Might get the DPS you speak of but wont get the job done in hard content like incarnate trials so unless you just like soloing pylons all day ya this build just wouldn't actually cut it. |
Ahem.
"Just a theoretical construct of course".
Don't judge me because I did exactly as I said: created a build that got 300. The fact the build is piss-poor and not anything I would ever touch doesn't mean that isn't exactly as advertised. In fact, I pretty much said that it wasn't a good build.
My point was that it was possible, even without the buff from Hybrid Assault. Basically, I can get MA to 300, by the skin of my teeth (though really, I could get a more workable build up using the same tactics). The same extreme level of sacrifice won't work with Staff.
Now, if you'd like me to derail the thread more and post a GOOD MA/SR build, I guess I could. But again, that isn't the point.
TW/Elec Optimization
It is a bit distracting, though.
What I mean by that is that if we talk about what MA can deliver using a build probably no one would play, and mention that Staff can't approach that using it's most similarly single-minded build, that sends a message that may not be (as) applicable to builds more like what people really would play.
If we don't devote every scrap of effort to DPS, what does that do to the practical difference in ST DPS we're likely to see? Such a question may have to be answered in broader terms rather than single DPS numbers, but I suspect it's a more useful question to answer.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I assumed one proc per attack because I did not think it was possible to squeeze two per attack and still get enough damage, recharge, and endurance reduction to make the SK-CK-SK-CAK chain practical. You added procs and sacrificed endurance reduction to get high enough recharge, and that means SK-CK-SK-CAK burns 35.21 endurance, or about 6.07 eps. The build has a net recovery of 1.97, which means not counting the endurance burn of PB or the endurance costs of Hasten, that chain is sustainable for only about 24 seconds. Factoring in the average costs of PB (slotted for end reduction since recharge isn't needed there) and Hasten would reduce that to about 23 seconds.|
Originally Posted by Combat
What about something like this?
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If you are willing to go all out on procs like that, a comparable Staff build should also rise significantly.
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Quote:
One way I'd do that is to compare the DPA of the set's best three attacks. Usually that consists of the Tier 9, a single target attack taken between 12 and 26, and the stronger of the two starter attacks. If this is taken in combination with damage buffs (Rage/Follow Up), -res, bonus damage (Staff/Stj), and extra crit chance (MA), you can directly compare different powersets. For instance, here are all the scrapper primaries.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
It is a bit distracting, though.
What I mean by that is that if we talk about what MA can deliver using a build probably no one would play, and mention that Staff can't approach that using it's most similarly single-minded build, that sends a message that may not be (as) applicable to builds more like what people really would play. If we don't devote every scrap of effort to DPS, what does that do to the practical difference in ST DPS we're likely to see? Such a question may have to be answered in broader terms rather than single DPS numbers, but I suspect it's a more useful question to answer. |
Battle Axe (BU only)
Swoop: 1.21 DPA
Gash: 1.20 DPA
Cleave: 1.16 DPA
Broadsword (BU, achilles heel procs in every attack)
Head Splitter: 1.19
Hack: 1.08
Disembowel: 1.04
Claws (Follow Up, fury of the glad proc, 3 purples)
Focus: 1.11
Shockwave: .928
Eviscerate: .912
Follow Up: .795
Dual Blades (combos, blinding feint, achilles heel proc)
Sweeping Strike: 1.35
Ablating Strike: 1.17
Blinding Feint: .588
Dark Melee (Soul Drain)
Midnight Grasp: 1.29
Smite: 1.17
Siphon Life: .97
Electric Melee (BU)
Chain Induction: 1.17
Jacobs Ladder: .85
Charged Brawl: .84
Fiery Melee (BU)
Incinerate: 1.42
Cremate: 1.24
Greater Fire Sword: 1.13
Katana (BU, achilles' in every attack)
Soaring Dragon: 1.19
Gambler's Cut: .95
Sting of the Wasp: .92
Kinetic Melee (power siphon)
Concentrated Strike: 1.17
Smashing Blow: 1.07
Body Blow: .922
Martial Arts (BU, Eagle's Claw)
Storm Kick: 1.38
Crippling Axe Kick: 1.20
Crane Kick: 1.11
Spines (BU, Quills)
Ripper: .98
Throw Spines: .76
Impale: .75
Staff Fighting (2 Purples, FoB)
Precise Strike: 1.05
Sky Splitter: .95
Serpent's Reach: .95
Street Justice (CR, RC's -res, achilles heel, 2-3 purples, combos)
Crushing Uppercut: 1.41
Shin Breaker: 1.09
Rib Cracker: .875
Sweeping Cross: .85
Titan Weapons (Momentum, BM, Rend Armor's -res, 2 achilles' heel procs, fury of the glad proc, 2 purples)
Rend Armor: 1.34 wo/M; 2.32 with
Follow Through: 2.133
Arc of Destruction: 1.03 wo/M; 1.78 with
Crushing Blow: .844 wo/M; 1.30 with
War Mace (BU, smashing procs)
Clobber: 2.11
Shatter: 1.65
Pulverize: 1.45
So what can we tell?
Staff doesn't have any outstanding attacks, and unlike most other sets in that situation has very little it can do to increase damage. A general rule of thumb is the -res is at least two times as valuable as +damage after enhancements. In regards to other sets, the probably rank as such:
1. TW
2. War Mace
3. Street Justice
4. Dark Melee (soul drain is very powerful)
5. Dual Blades
6. Martial Arts
8. Fiery
9. Battle Axe
10. Claws
11. Katana = Broadsword
13. Staff
14. Electric
...
52. Spines (yes, spines is THAT bad).
TW/Elec Optimization
Quote:
Yes, but ageless is worth about 3ish end recovery at a minimum if I remember right, and 8 when at max. . |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I assumed one proc per attack because I did not think it was possible to squeeze two per attack and still get enough damage, recharge, and endurance reduction to make the SK-CK-SK-CAK chain practical. You added procs and sacrificed endurance reduction to get high enough recharge, and that means SK-CK-SK-CAK burns 35.21 endurance, or about 6.07 eps. The build has a net recovery of 1.97, which means not counting the endurance burn of PB or the endurance costs of Hasten, that chain is sustainable for only about 24 seconds. Factoring in the average costs of PB (slotted for end reduction since recharge isn't needed there) and Hasten would reduce that to about 23 seconds.
If you are willing to go all out on procs like that, a comparable Staff build should also rise significantly. |
You are right though, I usually slot an end reduction instead of another proc. But many of my builds do use 2-3 procs per attack. Basically, my attack priorities are:
Get the recharge to run the best chain
Get attacks to 95% against +3s
Slot for 90+% damage enhancement
1 End Reduction
Proc Proc Proc
The first two can be done in many cases with IOs, leaving a lot of space in a 6 slotted attack for procs.
TW/Elec Optimization
Quote:
Thank you for posting this. Was really needed to really show what I've been trying to say for a while now.
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Originally Posted by Combat
DPA Comparisons
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Hm, something is off in that, though. Well, at least in the ranking at the end. I don't think BS comes out particularly near Katana in practical displays of sustained DPS.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
That's what I thought too, but it turns out Broadsword's 3 best attacks are better in DPS. However, that is probably balanced out by an increased endurance cost and recharge time, and the way faster animations allow for more procs/reactive stacks.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Hm, something is off in that, though. Well, at least in the ranking at the end. I don't think BS comes out particularly near Katana in practical displays of sustained DPS.
|
TW/Elec Optimization
Quote:
Specifically to try to account for that, I created a metric a while back that attempted to guestimate the damage potential of an attack set by attempting to add up the effective DPS of the best attacks as ranked by DPA, with the understanding that the total amount of time that the attacks could take could not exceed 100% of the total cycle time percentage. I called it PeakDR. One thing PeakDR did very well was explain why Broadsword had measurably lower single target damage than Katana. The problem is that while DPA can judge the best attacks to use, DPA alone doesn't tell you how often you can use that attack, and by extension to what degree it influences total DPS. Imagine inserting an attack that does 0.1 scale damage in 0.01 seconds with 20 second recharge to an attack chain. It has 10 DS/sec DPA which is huge, but its net effect will be small because its DPS is low and the amount of time you spend using it - what I call attack efficiency is low (the ratio of cast time to cycle time).|
Originally Posted by Combat
That's what I thought too, but it turns out Broadsword's 3 best attacks are better in DPS. However, that is probably balanced out by an increased endurance cost and recharge time, and the way faster animations allow for more procs/reactive stacks.
|
If you take all the attacks in a powerset and list them in descending order by DPA, and then for each attack calculate its cycle time (cast + recharge) its efficiency (cast / cycle time), and its DPS (damage / cycletime) and then tally a running sum of efficiency and DPS, at the point where efficiency becomes greater than 1.0 you take the DPS Sum and divide by the efficiency sum. That's the PeakDR estimated damage rating for that powerset. If you vary recharge times by a specified recharge speed factor, you can calculate this dynamically for different levels of recharge.
I have a spreadsheet which I need to update for new powersets, but PeakDR beautifully shows that Broadsword has two problems. The first is that its attacks have low efficiency. That means you need more of them to make a complete attack chain, or alternatively more recharge. This means you have to go deeper into the set to make a full chain, and that runs into the second problem with Broadsword: after the first three attacks all with decent DPA, DPA fall off a cliff with Broadsword. Going from the third best attack to the fourth for Katana goes from Gambler's Cut at approximately 1.0 DS/sec (assuming 10% criticals) to Sting of the Wasp at about 0.97. Broadsword goes from Disembowel at 1.09 to Slash at 0.69. That, well, disembowels Broadsword's single target DPS.
You need a lot of recharge to eliminate that problem: enough to never need Slash. And that's a lot of recharge. If you can do that, BS can catch up with Katana, but Katana will still likely have a few percentage points of edge (PeakDR's margin for error averages about 5% for most actual powersets).
Incidentally, assuming I've entered the numbers correctly into this old spreadsheet, PeakDR predicts Staff Fighting's single target damage to be roughly comparable to Claws, depending on the amount of recharge, and not counting the effects of Follow Up or Form buffs or debuffs (but counting form bonus damage on sky splitter).
Incidentally, Broadsword's three top DPA attacks do not have better cyclical DPS than Katana's. Golden Dragonfly and Soaring Dragon both edge out Head Splitter and Hack, and Gambler's Cut smokes them all. Also, somehow you omitted Golden Dragonfly as the best DPA attack for Katana.
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I can't agree that mace is really competitive with staff for aoe given the fact that its only power that ticks as many boxes as all of staff's powers is crowd control. Having recently played and purpled out an elec stalker, I also dispute that its aoe is all that. It's a great set but it is mediocre at aoe, particularly given the fact that lightning rod has the pseudopet damage cap and cannot critical. SS is better at aoe if you count the fact that rage's buff turns patron aoes into real killers. That it does, fair point. TW is better at aoe because TW is broken and should be severely nerfed. Spines is an odd set to bring up since you already used it as an example of a set with much worse single target, which it is. Claws is great at aoe, I won't deny that. Fire melee is in my view one of the absolute worst aoe sets along with energy melee: breath of fire is not just slow, it also requires you to do the bunnyhop shuffle to get anywhere close to its target cap. FSC is bog standard. So, in my view there are three sets that are arguably better than staff for aoe. I can live with that.
My point is that even spotted 75% extra +damage, Staff isn't going to wow because it lacks the tools. And other sets will find ways to run Assault.